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Old 12-22-2005, 07:01 PM   #1
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Default STI and EVO the only rally based cars?

So in WRC such comapanies like Citroen, Ford, Skoda, Pegeot and etc compete....just for the hell of it went and visited like two of those manufactures site.....and found no cars that were rally based or any of that heritage....so how come subaru and mitsu are the only companies that have rally based cars? or if im wrong tell me so
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Old 12-22-2005, 07:19 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by o2sys
So in WRC such comapanies like Citroen, Ford, Skoda, Pegeot and etc compete....just for the hell of it went and visited like two of those manufactures site.....and found no cars that were rally based or any of that heritage....so how come subaru and mitsu are the only companies that have rally based cars? or if im wrong tell me so
Toyota had the awd alltrac celica ... Ford used to have the Escort Cosworth

You will find that manufatures today are pretty dumb with their marketing and products. They think that a tube frame / 20 year old technology race car is going to help them sell cars... Subaru of America does a poor job at marketing the STI with rally. Just look how much $$ they are dumping into a tube frame drag car? ***! I used to work for subaru and the biggest complaints from dealerships was wrx/sti owners trying to drag race their cars and breaking the tranny. I have no clue why manufactures are not building rally related/rally cars ????

1. All rally cars have to be street legal - same as your road car
2. They are actually built off the real shell and use the stock block
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Old 12-22-2005, 07:26 PM   #3
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i know ford has their Focus RS (not is US) which i believe is turbocharged and maybe AWD but other than that still currently subaru and mitsu are the only ones.....SOA does do a pretty bad job in marketing the STI/WRX but that could also be since WRC and rallying is just starting to get popular....and thats just too
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Old 12-22-2005, 07:40 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXMaster
I have no clue why manufactures are not building rally related/rally cars
well rally in the U.S isn't too big. however it's supposedly the biggest form of motorsport in the world, so the cars and event coverage we see is only a small percentage of what's really out there. plus there are tons of popular cars (like Clios and Xsaras, yes the Fabia and Octavia too) used for rally that aren't available stateside. when people in the U.S. think rally, if the WRC doesn't come to mind as the only form of it, they muster thoughts of an Evo or STI plowing through the forest rather than a Golf winding through paved country roads.

to the original poster, almost any production car can be turned into a rally car. there are FC RX7s and E30 BMWs, even old Porsche 911s braving their way through the mud. it's just much more rare than awd or fwd cars. there are certain traits of a car vs. other characteristics that make it more favorable for rally or any form of production based motorsport. then there are the rules of what a novice rallyist can start competing in, then there are the costs..etc. etc.

tis what i think at least.

wanna see little econobox euro cars going balls out on 15 foot wide public roads? click link and download videos. if you're into rally, well worth your time. now imagine if we had that in the united states...
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Old 12-22-2005, 08:19 PM   #5
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Why does Subaru need to market the STi as a rally car in the US? Everyone who cares already knows.

As for drag racing vs rally.. the warranty claims would be much worse if everyone was attempting to treat the STi like a rally car. Rally cars damage more parts per event than any drag racer,.. and out of the box, the STi is a street car.
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Old 12-22-2005, 08:22 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by o2sys
So in WRC such comapanies like Citroen, Ford, Skoda, Pegeot and etc compete....just for the hell of it went and visited like two of those manufactures site.....and found no cars that were rally based or any of that heritage....so how come subaru and mitsu are the only companies that have rally based cars? or if im wrong tell me so
Its not that are cars are more rally based than the others, Subaru just tries to sell them as such. As its been said, Rally isn't popular everywhere, so marketing as a rally car might not yield positive results.
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Old 12-22-2005, 08:31 PM   #7
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I think what he means is that the drivetrain and chassis are basically identical to the rally vehicles, at least the Group N cars.

Subaru and Mitsubishi are currently the only manufacturers selling products that share the same basic engine, drivetrain layout, and chassis characteristics as their WRC cars.
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Old 12-22-2005, 08:53 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by o2sys
So in WRC such comapanies like Citroen, Ford, Skoda, Pegeot and etc compete....just for the hell of it went and visited like two of those manufactures site.....and found no cars that were rally based or any of that heritage....so how come subaru and mitsu are the only companies that have rally based cars? or if im wrong tell me so
Rally is huge in Europe. Just having the manufacturers name mentioned when they win is great advertising there. Just like the American companies do in NASCAR. Can't buy a Nextel Cup car to cruise to the market in either. You probably wouldn't want to either.

Last edited by leaknoil; 12-22-2005 at 08:59 PM.
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Old 12-22-2005, 09:23 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leaknoil
Rally is huge in Europe. Just having the manufacturers name mentioned when they win is great advertising there. Just like the American companies do in NASCAR. Can't buy a Nextel Cup car to cruise to the market in either. You probably wouldn't want to either.
Actually rally is a better platform then Nascar ... When they win you can actually compare a street car to a rally car ... They are pretty similar and you can go to a dealership and associate it... Europe has more manufactures then in the US... Nascar you just normally get brand recoginition "you cant pick up a two door ford tourus with stickers for headlights.

I used to work for 3+ dealerships as a marketing advisor. We never used marketing material that subaru USA gave us. We found out we had more customer feedback from showing rally videos and other performance material. A example of subaru usa stupidity - They wanted us to compare the Outback to the covered wagons of the wild west " we had posters that said new covered wagon with a picture of the outback" I cant belive they pay people to think that up! You would be suprised how about 80% of the potential sti owners knew about rally and could name their lead driver.... Anyway back to the subject ... Anyway when your marketing your product to many different countries/cultures you need brand recognition.. but for example nascar - GM spend millions for $$ to advertise the monte carlo "horrible product /which has horrible sales" ... well you get people who say thats great brand recognition?? Well if you live in america you know Ford/GM/Dodge ... you dont need to see tube frame cars to help you remember that! They wonder why they cant sell cars! For example the peugot 206- won the wrc championship ... It looks identical to the road going car... same year its the number 1 selling car in Europe.... I am just ranting because rally is a great advertising tool to help a manufature sell cars.

Here are some example of NEW cars that are rally related.. similar drive trains/motors

Ford Fiesta- JWRC car
Citreon C2 - JWRC car
Suzuki Swift- JWRC car
Fiat Punto - JWRC car
Subaru STI - Group N
Mitsubishi Evo- Group N
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Old 12-22-2005, 09:41 PM   #10
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They don't because WR Car spec doesn't require it. Starting in 1997, it was okay to take a 2wd N/A car and convert it to AWD and forced induction. The FIA did this to get more manufacturers involved in the sport. Before, there were homologation rules for Group A cars to have their road going counterparts at least be FI and AWD (if that is what they wanted to compete with). With the rule change, those compainies would probably have never gotten into the WRC because they didn't want to spend the money to make these cars for production. Heck, even Ford stopped selling their FI/AWD cars when the WRCar spec came out. The Focus RS (as someone mentioned earlier) is Turbo'd, but not AWD. The elusive Focus RS Cosworth, that may or may not come out (only in Europe likely) should have AWD though.
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Old 12-22-2005, 11:05 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by o2sys
i know ford has their Focus RS (not is US) which i believe is turbocharged and maybe AWD
The focus RS is FWD...sadly

they should have never stopped making the escort cossie...and toyota should have never dumped the all trac celica...
now look..the escort and celica are gone...



I think ford still makes the zx2...


I vote to bring back homoligation!!!
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Old 12-22-2005, 11:24 PM   #12
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i vote bringing back the lancia delta intergrale and bringing them to the states along with escort cosworth's. see alot of the car makers have already offered a rally car esque road car in they're history, but for some reason they never keep them in the lineup
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Old 12-23-2005, 01:09 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porter
I think what he means is that the drivetrain and chassis are basically identical to the rally vehicles, at least the Group N cars.

Subaru and Mitsubishi are currently the only manufacturers selling products that share the same basic engine, drivetrain layout, and chassis characteristics as their WRC cars.
BINGO!
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Old 12-23-2005, 02:03 AM   #14
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Group A or Group N??

Most all rally cars are derived/based/share in common qualities of their road going counterpart.

From Proton Pert to the RS200, Quattro Sport to Delta Integrale..
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Old 12-23-2005, 08:06 AM   #15
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What about the old Hyundais? LOL!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 12-23-2005, 08:41 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by o2sys
i know ford has their Focus RS (not is US) which i believe is turbocharged and maybe AWD but other than that still currently subaru and mitsu are the only ones.....SOA does do a pretty bad job in marketing the STI/WRX but that could also be since WRC and rallying is just starting to get popular....and thats just too


the Focus RS is 2.0l Turbo but FWD, the biggest mistake they made with that car
The public wanted another 'Scort Cossie although the RS handles incredibly well for a FWD turbo car.


On another note, someone mentioned the Celica GT AWD; there was also Mazda 323 GTR, Golf G60 Rallye, Integrale and of course the Quattro.
However a GpA/N WRC rally based car secures such a small market that Euro manufacturers have had no interest in the past few years of going to the trouble of marketing such a car. High theft and insurance rates in the UK and mainland Europe killed the Cosworth in the 90's and most manufacturers followed suit by detuning their line of "sports" cars. During the 90's many manufacturers shifted focus onto F2 Maxi kit cars and now JWRC and produced FWD rally based/limited edition cars. I owned a homologated Peugeot 106 Rallye for example. There was also the Seat Ibiza, Peugeot 306 6sp and many more. Now Ford finally have the Fiesta ST that replaces the famous XR2.
Only in the last 4-5 years have we seen more aggressive high powered compact sports cars in Europe again.
Having owned a 3dr Audi A3 Quattro I always thought it would make such a great rally car. I hope Audi come back into WRC again with the facelifted version. Then again maybe a US brand such as Pontiac could step forward with a rallye concept...

Last edited by AlbaScoob; 12-23-2005 at 08:54 AM.
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Old 12-23-2005, 08:48 AM   #17
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One of my coworkerd had a *edit* Ford Escort Cosworth for a while.

The Audi 90 Quattro was highly rally based, though was not marketed as such in North America.

And the Toyota Celica All-Trac was mentioned earlier.

The STi and EVO (and WRX) are the only cars currently sold in the US that were designed as a platform for a Rally car first, but they're certainly not the only ones that have ever been sold in the US.

Last edited by kfoote; 12-23-2005 at 11:13 AM.
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Old 12-23-2005, 08:57 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kfoote
One of my coworkerd had a Ford RS200 for a while.

The Audi 90 Quattro was highly rally based, though was not marketed as such in North America.

And the Toyota Celica All-Trac was mentioned earlier.

The STi and EVO (and WRX) are the only cars currently sold in the US that were designed as a platform for a Rally car first, but they're certainly not the only ones that have ever been sold in the US.

a GpB RS200????

are you sure?
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Old 12-23-2005, 09:43 AM   #19
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I rented a car in Europe recently. When they told me it was a Citreon Xsara, I went Yaaa!. On my previous trip to Europe I had rented a Peugot 206 and it was a cool little car (even if it was the base model). When I went out to the lot to inspect the Xsara it was a diesel minivan!!! Flat floor, up-right seating.

In the end it was a good vehicle for my needs, but it had absolutely NO relationship to the rally Xsara. (Apparently there is a car-type Xsara as well, but it's a mid-sized FWD family car ).
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Old 12-23-2005, 10:10 AM   #20
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I am not so sure that the WRX is a rally-based car as much as leverages the success on it in WRC. A friend of mine sells subaru's, and he told me (I know - Urban Legand style-) that it has always been the engineers' focus to go fast at Nurburgring.

I started thinking about it, and you DO have to spend more to make the WRX a viable rally car that a track car. Completely new suspension, wheel, tires, brakes (gotta have 15's for real rally tires.)
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Old 12-23-2005, 10:44 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlbaScoob
a GpB RS200????

are you sure?

There was one on Ebay a while ago in Miami. I knew that someone had one in the NorthEast too.
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Old 12-23-2005, 11:00 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlbaScoob
a GpB RS200????

are you sure?
There are RS200s that were sold, and then there are a few RS 200 Evolution cars that were sold. The Evo versions were much closer to the specs of the GrpB car, but even then they were not up to that level. The regular RS200 was 250 hp.
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Old 12-23-2005, 11:14 AM   #23
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Some companies really should come out with new AWD rally based cars. The homologation specials of the late 80s and early 90s are getting really hard to find in good shape and then there is not really anything rally based till the WRX was introduced. Now our only choices are the WRX/STI or the Evo. It would be nice to see some variety.
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Old 12-23-2005, 11:14 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlbaScoob
a GpB RS200????

are you sure?
Sorry, edited my post. It was a Ford Escort Cosworth, not an RS200. It still fits the point of my post, though.
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Old 12-23-2005, 02:08 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwx
There are RS200s that were sold, and then there are a few RS 200 Evolution cars that were sold. The Evo versions were much closer to the specs of the GrpB car, but even then they were not up to that level. The regular RS200 was 250 hp.
there was actually one on ebay last year...if only I had the money...
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