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Old 05-27-2007, 02:13 PM   #2401
chrisarella
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eqlized_aero View Post
The tubes don't align perfectly, but they're pretty close.

You need a 2.5 to 2.75" reducer to hook the intercooler pipe that comes with the kit to the perrin blow thru. You can use the 2.75" silicone coupler that you have with your TMIC to hook the perrin blow thru to the throttle body.

My tuner (Jorge) was able to extract a lot of power out of my setup (380 whp, 400 wtq) but did not like tuning for the perrin tube. The transition from 2.75 to 3 then back to 2.75 makes the air too turbulent.

I plan on custom fabricating all new pipe from the intercooler exit to the throttle body. It will be 3" the whole way.

Hmmm. I was planning on running the pipes in reverse and it looks like the Perrin Boost Tube being one piece would make it way too difficult to work with. And now that you mentioned it, I don't like the turbulence factoring into this either. I'm probably going to have to think about this a little more and try to come up with some custom option to pull it off. Perhaps I'll try to figure out a way to weld a MAF sensor mounting block onto the tube right before the throttle body for the same advantages of getting accurate MAF readings. Then I'll have everything powder coated before installing.

Thought?
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Old 05-27-2007, 03:36 PM   #2402
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I may end up going with this FMIC in the interest of time:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1113411

Sure, the SSAC price can't be beat, but I'm not waiting a month. Besides, this reverse pipe routing is perfect, very few bends, and the core already comes pre-painted black. All I need to do now is mod it for the MAF before the throttle body, powder coat the pipes, install, and tune. Done.

Sorry SSAC, you snooze, you lose. I'm guessing there are others that don't want to wait too, but then again, $295 shipped is a big reason to wait. Not me though. I guess you should plan better for the season's inventory.
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Old 05-27-2007, 05:01 PM   #2403
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haha..you say that as if ssac is reading this and as if they care about you.

they dont need, and they wont miss your $295.
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Old 05-27-2007, 06:19 PM   #2404
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Originally Posted by chrisarella View Post
I may end up going with this FMIC in the interest of time:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1113411

Sure, the SSAC price can't be beat, but I'm not waiting a month. Besides, this reverse pipe routing is perfect, very few bends, and the core already comes pre-painted black. All I need to do now is mod it for the MAF before the throttle body, powder coat the pipes, install, and tune. Done.

Sorry SSAC, you snooze, you lose. I'm guessing there are others that don't want to wait too, but then again, $295 shipped is a big reason to wait. Not me though. I guess you should plan better for the season's inventory.
/golfclap

you can reverse the SSAC intercooler piping in 5 minutes if you want to.

the only superior feature about WBR in my book in that you can run most CAIs on the market with it. I'm stuck using the XS engineering 65mm with my SSAC FMIC, and don't know what I'm going to do when I need a larger MAF housing.
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Old 05-28-2007, 04:54 AM   #2405
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how am i supposed to achieve that? the reverse piping that is. anything need to be purchased?
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Old 05-28-2007, 11:08 AM   #2406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GripGC8
haha..you say that as if ssac is reading this and as if they care about you.

they dont need, and they wont miss your $295.
Not that my $295 is so important, but it would be dumb on SSAC part to not read the very forum threads that generate so much business for them. Not to mention the free R&D this thread provides them about the opinions and experiences of their customers.

My comments about their poor handling of their inventory are more of a wake-up call if they aren't already learning it on their own the hard way. If no one speaks up and says they lost business then they will go on thinking the world will wait for them... and that means you can expext this practice of running out of stock will become business as usual. It doesn't have to be that way. I was in the import business long enough to know how to look at the previous years sales, look at my current inventory, factor in my current rate of growth, and order new stock well enough in advance so that I don't go without stock.

And I don't really give a crap who I give my money to but as long as I am buying a quality product with good value and I get good customer service. The SSAC is a great value but I can't buy what they don't have in stock. A front mount is one of the final pieces to finishing my car and I'm not putting my project on hold because of their poor planning.

Besides, the other FMIC I'm looking at has less bends and transitions, the core comes painted stealth black already, and appears to be better suited for my needs. The fit on the bugeye looks flawless as the core tanks tuck perfectly behind the bumper, I can retailn the fogs (so can the SSAC) but the piping leaves plenty of room for a CAI. Check it out:





Sure I can paint the SSAC core myself and reversing the plumbing is an easy do but I have some fabricating that needs to get done to make either one of these FMICs to be 100% right for me (custom MAF bracket, Vibrant boost braces torched in, and powder coating afterwards) and I want to rolling this week.

Nothing personal. No big impact on SSAC. It just is what it is.

Last edited by chrisarella; 05-28-2007 at 11:28 AM. Reason: added picture
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Old 05-28-2007, 02:03 PM   #2407
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The cold pipe remains cold while you are driving. Reversing the piping is pointless.

The same goes for a CAI. The only POSSIBLE benefit would be that your Intake Temp Sensor will read lower temps, but a blow through MAF is a much more effective way of solving this issue. Especially if you need a larger MAF housing. Of course, by the time you are pushing that much HP you will want a more efficient intercooler anyway....

You would be better off getting the best engineered and most accurate intake you can find.

As a last note, do NOT get the XS Engineering CAI. It sucks balls!!! My tuner had a lot of issues with it, both on the dyno and road tuning. It is metal and prone to bad heatsoak. It is not engineered, but a few tubes thrown together with a MAF mount welded on. It has BAD turbulence issues, which means it is hard to tune accurately because readings are always changing. He felt that this intake robbed me of 20-30 pounds of WTQ compared to similar setups, and maybe some WHP too.

Because of these issues, and the fact that my VF-39 doesn't benefit AT ALL from a FMIC, I will probably throw on an STI top mount that I picked up cheap along with an APS 65mm CAI. If I go with an FP Green in the future I may put this FMIC back on, but it depends on whether this FMIC can handle that much air efficiently.
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Old 05-28-2007, 03:12 PM   #2408
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Originally Posted by aboothman View Post
The cold pipe remains cold while you are driving. Reversing the piping is pointless.
Ok, what is the cold pipe in your definition??

By default the pipe routing runs the last pipe after the intercooler, over the turbo, and before the throttle body. Reversing the piping keep the cooled charge temp cool by not reheating it going over the turbo. It's much more efficient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aboothman View Post
The same goes for a CAI. The only POSSIBLE benefit would be that your Intake Temp Sensor will read lower temps, but a blow through MAF is a much more effective way of solving this issue. Especially if you need a larger MAF housing. Of course, by the time you are pushing that much HP you will want a more efficient intercooler anyway....
I agree having the sensor closer to the throttle body is a good idea, which is why I've said I am modding this in. And as stated above, the Perrin BTBT has some tuning issues I am trying to avoid which is why I'm going the custom route.

The point of any CAI is to get the intake charge as cold as possible. The efficiency of this is multiplied with the use of a FMIC. The colder you can get your intake charge, the more fuel you can add to the mix and the more boost you can run. Whatever the method, whether it is a boxed in intake, a CAI, or whatever, there is a purpose, and the intake and intercooler work together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aboothman View Post
You would be better off getting the best engineered and most accurate intake you can find.
And which one is that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aboothman View Post
As a last note, do NOT get the XS Engineering CAI. It sucks balls!!! My tuner had a lot of issues with it, both on the dyno and road tuning. It is metal and prone to bad heatsoak. It is not engineered, but a few tubes thrown together with a MAF mount welded on. It has BAD turbulence issues, which means it is hard to tune accurately because readings are always changing. He felt that this intake robbed me of 20-30 pounds of WTQ compared to similar setups, and maybe some WHP too.
Good to know. I wasn't considering one anyway. But thanks for the input.

So are you running a FMIC now? It seams that way in your statement (put this back on). And are you selling yours if you take it off? If you take it off this week, I may be interested. If not, my payment is going to WBR Performance.
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Old 05-28-2007, 04:06 PM   #2409
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charge pipe = from turbo to intercooler. Cold pipe = from intercooler to Throttlebody.

I was not going to mention this because I dont have the threads handy, but I have seen a few threads on a few different forums that give comparative data on cold pipes with and without the pipe crossing over the turbo. The information was fairly complex, so I figured they put a lot of thought and time into this. I stumbled across it while looking for info on Blow Through MAF setups.

The result was that it is a negligable change due to the speed at which the air passes through the pipe while you are driving. I.E: no real end result. If I have the time I will try to dig those threads up.

As for the CAI, I used to believe the same as you. However, after getting some experience with these setups, I have come to the same conclusion as above...no real gains for the hastle of using a CAI. Especially when you have to use an inferior product to fit with an FMIC...then you are LOSING because your intake sucks so bad it is difficult to tune. IF you could use a good CAI then it may be worth it, but then you ahve to consider the small drop in intake temp will mostly be negate by the turbo as it superheats the air.

I am not an intake expert as I am only on my second one, but I can say read around and see what tuners like to work with. My tuner likes the APS CAIs, and I think he recommended the SPT intake as well.

I AM currently running an FMIC, and will continue to do so throughout the summer because of time restraints preventing me from making the 12 hour round trip to retune.

Either way, I hope you enjoy the WBR for the added cost. After all the "hype" around the new full race products and their great explainations of how efficiency can really add to the power, etc etc, I think I will save for my next setup: a Full Race full GT-30r setup
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Old 05-28-2007, 04:06 PM   #2410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aboothman View Post
The cold pipe remains cold while you are driving. Reversing the piping is pointless.

The same goes for a CAI. The only POSSIBLE benefit would be that your Intake Temp Sensor will read lower temps, but a blow through MAF is a much more effective way of solving this issue. Especially if you need a larger MAF housing. Of course, by the time you are pushing that much HP you will want a more efficient intercooler anyway....

You would be better off getting the best engineered and most accurate intake you can find.

As a last note, do NOT get the XS Engineering CAI. It sucks balls!!! My tuner had a lot of issues with it, both on the dyno and road tuning. It is metal and prone to bad heatsoak. It is not engineered, but a few tubes thrown together with a MAF mount welded on. It has BAD turbulence issues, which means it is hard to tune accurately because readings are always changing. He felt that this intake robbed me of 20-30 pounds of WTQ compared to similar setups, and maybe some WHP too.

Because of these issues, and the fact that my VF-39 doesn't benefit AT ALL from a FMIC, I will probably throw on an STI top mount that I picked up cheap along with an APS 65mm CAI. If I go with an FP Green in the future I may put this FMIC back on, but it depends on whether this FMIC can handle that much air efficiently.
I agree reverse piping is not as effective as most will claim. Airflow is just too fast to make a substantial effect.

CAI will always make a difference when properly tuned. Everyone assumes since the charge air is flowing through and intercooler that it's fine to ingest air at any temperature. Intercoolers have a set efficiency. If a core is 80% efficient, it will drop the charge air at set efficiency. Feed the intercooler air that's underhood temps at 120 degrees, it will drop that air (ambient air dependant) at that fixed percentage. Now feed that core ambient air at 80 degrees and will have a cooler charge. It's just physics. Before anyone throws in the heating affect of the turbo, same thought process applies. Cooler in, cooler out. If air going into the turbo is already 40 degress cooler, this 'superheated' air is still a lot cooler, not exactly 40 degress, but close. In the end of all this heating and cooling, if we manage to have a charge even 30 degress cooler, then given that each 10 degress of cooler air gives an additional 1% horsepower, I'll be happy knowing I can gain anywhere up to 3-4% more power. Example: 4% at 350 HP is approximately 14 Hp.

I also agree with the inconsistensies of most CAI with a simple tube design. I also don't see any difference a short ram would make, it's still a tube with a MAF sensor boss welded on, just ingesting hot underhood air. There are a couple known SR intakes that claim no ill effects on mapping, and they utilize some sort of air straightener. I believe this is the key. I added air straighteners to my XS CAI and I've dialed in a very consistant MAF calibration. Finally, the Cobb intake benefits from being a composite material, not heat soaking like metal units.

I'm working on relocating the air temp sensor to several locations to verify any benefits, one at the filter (right behind the passenger side foglight) and right before the throttle body. This is JUST the temp sensor and NOT the hot wire. The whole MAF senor will remain. I will find a matching thermister and breakout the two wires at the MAF connector. From there, I can make an extension to relocate it at will.

Last edited by DaRealGMan; 05-28-2007 at 04:15 PM.
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Old 05-28-2007, 09:13 PM   #2411
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ya, I think relocating the temp sensor would be best, since people have a lot of mixed results from blow through MAF setups. Although a blow through will give the best shot at straightened air since you have the longest amount of straight'ish piping before the sensor.

I remember seeing the air straightener you used on the XS CAI....question, did you self tune, or have someone else do it?

As for the part about cooling pre turbo, I can understand that. I just do not believe even 50 degrees will matter after the turbo has heated it. I guess what I am saying, is 50 degrees pre turbo is 5-10 after turbo. I do not believe it is a 1:1 ratio of temp in and out of the turbo.

No, I do not have any information to support this, besides the comments of various tuners and manufacturers who have researched the subject. It just seems to me that a lot more CAIs would be made for Subies, and used on race cars, if they made as big of a difference as you suggest. Racing IS, after all, where 1% actually makes a difference.

Last edited by aboothman; 05-28-2007 at 10:08 PM.
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Old 05-28-2007, 10:49 PM   #2412
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ya, I think relocating the temp sensor would be best, since people have a lot of mixed results from blow through MAF setups. Although a blow through will give the best shot at straightened air since you have the longest amount of straight'ish piping before the sensor.

I remember seeing the air straightener you used on the XS CAI....question, did you self tune, or have someone else do it?

As for the part about cooling pre turbo, I can understand that. I just do not believe even 50 degrees will matter after the turbo has heated it. I guess what I am saying, is 50 degrees pre turbo is 5-10 after turbo. I do not believe it is a 1:1 ratio of temp in and out of the turbo.

No, I do not have any information to support this, besides the comments of various tuners and manufacturers who have researched the subject. It just seems to me that a lot more CAIs would be made for Subies, and used on race cars, if they made as big of a difference as you suggest. Racing IS, after all, where 1% actually makes a difference.
I self tune. I've been a dyno technician now for 13 years, 9 years now doing it for Toyota's race engines (TRD). My experience include Champ car, IRL, Grand Am Daytona Prototypes, and various grassroots level racing, including various performance parts testing for street vehicles. I admit, I've only had a Subie for 3 years, but there are aspects to engine management that never change.

I agree temp in and temp out isn't a 1:1 ratio. But there is still a difference.

Funny you mentioned race cars, since I do it for a living. Race cars don't have a 'cold air intake' per say. They already funnel outside air directly from an external source, usually a snorkel of some sort, and most don't require air filters. CAI were derived from street cars and the act of modifying them for performance. They came about when factory intake tracts deemed too restrictive when performance modifications were applied. The OEM did not utilize them for obvious reasons: excessive noise, and the variety of conditions a vehicle can be exposed to (ie high levels of possible water ingestion).

I'm not trying to say there is one set way to setup your own personal vehicle. If you prefer a short ram and have it tuned properly, then so be it. If you want to use a CAI with a proper tune, that's ok too. My point is, there is an advantage. To some, the the trouble might not be worth the 15-20 horsepower for a street vehicle.

The biggest peave I have on these forums is when someone says something can't be done, only because someone else said that someone else's tuner said he can't use it. With my personal experience and opinion, if something doesn't work, I'll modify it to make it work, hence the flow straighteners. I will be the first to call BS on a performance modification if I don't see something worth investigating. Believe me, at work we look for what works in engine performance. We test it on the dyno. If it works, it is used. If not, it's scrapped. On my personal street vehicle, I'll only install parts I feel is worth the gains. I don't make my decision on the findings from other people whom I don't even know. I do my own fabrication and testing. Pretty cut and dry.

I didn't make a big deal with my findings regarding my XS CAI modifications since everyone will just dismiss it, since CAI were already deamed 'useless' on these forums.

Last edited by DaRealGMan; 05-28-2007 at 10:57 PM.
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Old 05-29-2007, 02:05 AM   #2413
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^^ Good stuff.

I was hesitant to mention "race cars", since I was not able to give a clear defination. I did NOT mean top of the line, fully sponsored professional teams, I can tell you that. These cars are generally designed ground up with fully fabricated, purpose-built setups. I was aiming more at the time attack type cars, that are still within the budget of a small tuning shop who cannot afford to engineer and fabricate every part on the car. Bolt Ons

I am always trying to find specs and pics of any car that is raced to get this very info. I too am new to the subie world, so I have not had many oppertunities to look under the hood of a subie race car.

I HAVE seen several cars with a setup similar to the WRC car, where the air filter or intake replaces the TMIC. Of course, every car has a different setup.

I guess my point was that for your average user, any gains from a CAI would be negligable. For me, the gains with the XS CAI were negligable given the negatives. Realize, however, that I at one point believed there were enough gains to justify buying one. Maybe I can convince you to make me an air straightener

As telling someone that something won't work, I am just sharing my experience with a particular item that my tuner and I have had issues with. We discussed possibilities for modification, and given my goals, determined that modification would be more hassle than it would be worth. If I had the ability to tune my own car for every little change (a skill I DO intend to aquire) then I would be far more likely to play around.

But, as I said before, a 12 hour round trip and a tuning bill means I have to plan my mods more carefully for the time being.

P.S. sorry for the hijack lol. At least we are still contributing something to the thread
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Old 05-29-2007, 03:12 AM   #2414
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^^ Good stuff.

I was hesitant to mention "race cars", since I was not able to give a clear defination. I did NOT mean top of the line, fully sponsored professional teams, I can tell you that. These cars are generally designed ground up with fully fabricated, purpose-built setups. I was aiming more at the time attack type cars, that are still within the budget of a small tuning shop who cannot afford to engineer and fabricate every part on the car. Bolt Ons

I am always trying to find specs and pics of any car that is raced to get this very info. I too am new to the subie world, so I have not had many oppertunities to look under the hood of a subie race car.

I HAVE seen several cars with a setup similar to the WRC car, where the air filter or intake replaces the TMIC. Of course, every car has a different setup.

I guess my point was that for your average user, any gains from a CAI would be negligable. For me, the gains with the XS CAI were negligable given the negatives. Realize, however, that I at one point believed there were enough gains to justify buying one. Maybe I can convince you to make me an air straightener

As telling someone that something won't work, I am just sharing my experience with a particular item that my tuner and I have had issues with. We discussed possibilities for modification, and given my goals, determined that modification would be more hassle than it would be worth. If I had the ability to tune my own car for every little change (a skill I DO intend to aquire) then I would be far more likely to play around.

But, as I said before, a 12 hour round trip and a tuning bill means I have to plan my mods more carefully for the time being.

P.S. sorry for the hijack lol. At least we are still contributing something to the thread

I understand for the purpose of simplicity the concerns of simply bolting on a CAI and the end results. If I were a consumer, I obviously would want something that bolts on and works, without modification. From what I've learned in the past few months, nearly all CAIs on the market need a tune to get the proper curve to match what the factory mapped it out to be. This was my main concern when tuning my own vehicle. I've been so anal with getting the maps dialed in, I've managed to get relative pressure and calculated load to match within 1%. To people who aren't familier with these two values, relative pressure is positive pressure measured by the MAP sensor (read 'actual' boost pressure). Calculated load is what the ECU assumes this pressure ratio to be relative to mass airflow and rpm. In my logs, when calculated load says 2.0, it is plus or minus .5 psi from 14.7 psi relative pressure. This I mapped out throughtout the entire usaeble airflow range.

Sorry if what I said regarding people's experiences came out wrong. I never meant to target you directly nor make a negative comment on the Subie community. I just wanted to express my own opinion. I fully understand whatever experience and information you have can prove to be valuable, and taken in context. We all want the same things here
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Old 06-02-2007, 08:30 PM   #2415
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I really wish the core would fill up the bumper more but I guess for 295 really cant complain to much huh.
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Old 06-02-2007, 08:40 PM   #2416
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I really wish the core would fill up the bumper more but I guess for 295 really cant complain to much huh.
lol like an aps fmic? LAGGGGGG city!
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Old 06-02-2007, 08:42 PM   #2417
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lol...not that big. just a tad bigger to fill the gaps on the side
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Old 06-02-2007, 11:55 PM   #2418
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how about the tmic they have. this would be for 04 sti
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Old 06-03-2007, 03:41 AM   #2419
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lol like an aps fmic? LAGGGGGG city!
yup....an extra 3 rpm of lag......3 rpm
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Old 06-03-2007, 03:53 AM   #2420
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Originally Posted by layza4sti View Post
how about the tmic they have. this would be for 04 sti
Was that a question?
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Old 06-03-2007, 01:12 PM   #2421
layza4sti
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sorry i ment, how are there tmic? does any one hear have one....
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Old 06-03-2007, 04:13 PM   #2422
chlnOrSlpn?
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Originally Posted by modaddict View Post
yup....an extra 3 rpm of lag......3 rpm

a buddy of mine has a stage 2 STi with APS FMIC and says he hits 20psi at around 3750rpm

I'm running stage 2 with the SSA FMIC and I hit 20psi at 3200rpm.

He's going FP Green very soon so that will change things....and I will be the slow one once again
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Old 06-03-2007, 04:53 PM   #2423
szeny
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Originally Posted by modaddict View Post
yup....an extra 3 rpm of lag......3 rpm
ya 3rpm.... you probably havent ran a smaller turbo on either of these. Dont you roll your eyes at me! I have had quite a few diffrernt fmics and the APS ones are ALOT more laggier.
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Old 06-03-2007, 11:37 PM   #2424
modaddict
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chlnOrSlpn? View Post
a buddy of mine has a stage 2 STi with APS FMIC and says he hits 20psi at around 3750rpm

I'm running stage 2 with the SSA FMIC and I hit 20psi at 3200rpm.

He's going FP Green very soon so that will change things....and I will be the slow one once again

Your 'buddy' has a tuning problem. Pure and simple. There's no way the APS will cause 500 rpm of boost threashold difference on the stock turbo.

To prove it, do some dataloggs of your car and his....watch your WGDC and post it here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by szeny View Post
ya 3rpm.... you probably havent ran a smaller turbo on either of these. Dont you roll your eyes at me! I have had quite a few diffrernt fmics and the APS ones are ALOT more laggier.
I ran the stock turbo on this fmic.....yup...added 50rpm of your "lag" from my tmic.

ZOMG! teh APS is sooooo laggy!

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Old 06-04-2007, 03:08 AM   #2425
szeny
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modaddict View Post
Your 'buddy' has a tuning problem. Pure and simple. There's no way the APS will cause 500 rpm of boost threashold difference on the stock turbo.

To prove it, do some dataloggs of your car and his....watch your WGDC and post it here.



I ran the stock turbo on this fmic.....yup...added 50rpm of your "lag" from my tmic.

ZOMG! teh APS is sooooo laggy!

i HOPE you are talkin about a vf39...else you really are a fool
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