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Old 01-02-2006, 12:56 AM   #1
2006STI
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Default redline say lightweight shockproof gear fluid i not for syncro trans...true or false?

i was thinking of using the redline lightweight shockproof gear fluid for my sti and the website said not to use it for syncro manual tranny. i read that alot of people use this fluid for their tranny and never had a problem and its shift easier into gears than other fluid. why is redline not recommending it for syncro tranny?
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Old 01-02-2006, 02:25 AM   #2
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could be because it contains a material which is abrasive towards (and probably accelerates the wear of) the synchro's...

(this comment will probably be followed by lots of "my transmission is fine" comments... you might consider emailing redline and asking them...)
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Old 01-02-2006, 03:08 AM   #3
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I'll bow to DrD's materials knowledge. While it is not recommended, it's one of the better fluids for 5MTs. For a 6MT, use something else though as you can pretty much fill one of those up with pure Wesson Oil and it will shift fine. 5MTs are picky though.
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Old 01-02-2006, 12:11 PM   #4
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I don't have any real definitive data in this case - I am just guessing based upon Redline's description of the oil as a suspension of solid particles, the observations many people have made while disassembling a transmission which used the shockproof stuff as containing a putty-like material which was difficult to remove, and the appearance of the oil in general (looks like a slurry) - the particles are there to cushion the gear teath under extreme pressure, so they are bound to be pretty resilient little buggers, which probably increase the coefficient of friction of the surface they lubricate (when compared to an oil without the particles), and as a result improve synchro action. The cost of having that slurry ground into the synchro's every time you use them is probably going to be increased wear (it's not such a big deal on the steel gears, as they are much more wear resistant than the softer synchro's) - whether or not that's going to be enough to kill the synchro's a whole lot faster or just a little faster is unclear, at least to me, which is why I would recommend contacting Redline.
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Old 01-02-2006, 12:22 PM   #5
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A long time ago I asked Redline about Shockproof, and they stated that it is not recommended for use in street-driven transmissions. I doubt that position has changed so if you ask them today you'll probably get the same answer.
On a new 06 I would not use anything other than what Subaru recommends. If you are having shifting issues use your warranty and let the dealer check it rather than attempting to fix it with different fluid.
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Old 01-02-2006, 02:53 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulder
A long time ago I asked Redline about Shockproof, and they stated that it is not recommended for use in street-driven transmissions. I doubt that position has changed so if you ask them today you'll probably get the same answer.
On a new 06 I would not use anything other than what Subaru recommends. If you are having shifting issues use your warranty and let the dealer check it rather than attempting to fix it with different fluid.
Did they elaborate on why they don't recommend it for street-driven transmissions?


I've used shockproof for 2 years now.
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Old 01-02-2006, 02:55 PM   #7
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I don't recall the full details of their reply, but I don't think it was very comprehensive. You can contact them yourself if you'd like and ask for a more complete answer.
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Old 01-02-2006, 04:17 PM   #8
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Yeah, having hard particles floating around in the oil is kind of iffy on the wear issue. They're half there for a reason and half for a gimmick/selling point that makes their product unique. I don't doubt that it works for its intended purpose, however, it would be interesting to see long term wear, 5, 10, 15 year wear lengths.


For your question about lightweight for our manual trannies, it's the wrong one for our cars. You should be looking at the Heavyweight version. Each weight version has different viscosities. The Heavyweight has a viscosity similar to 75w90 oil. The Lightweight is more like ATF, a lot less viscous. You'd probably have very obvious syncro issues with them not working well.
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Old 01-03-2006, 02:26 AM   #9
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"SuperLight ShockProof™
A unique product with the viscosity of 75W90 gear oil but lower internal friction similar to that of an ATF. Used when temperatures are not high and when the maximum power output is required such as in stock car qualifying laps.
Used in two-stroke and four-stroke motocross transmissions (often mixed in equal parts with LightWeight ShockProof™ Gear Oil).
Used in 80cc and 125cc shifter kart transmissions.
Used in low-power road racing transxles like Formula Vee and low-power SCCA Production classes (dog-ring type, generally not sycro application where this product can be slippery)."

"LightWeight ShockProof™
A unique gear oil designed to lubricate racing transmissions and transaxles which see serious loads (not recommended for most syncro-type transmissions). It has excellent low-temperature flow which allows easier shifting when cold. May be used to obtain maximum power transfer in racing differentials which do not see high temperatures. Similar to a 75W140 gear oil, but with the lower internal friction of an SAE 30 motor oil.
Used in two-stroke and four-stroke motocross transmissions (often mixed in equal parts with SuperLight ShockProof™ Gear Oil).
Used in most road-racing differentials with moderate power and dogring racing transaxles."

"Heavy ShockProof™
A unique lubricant containing a suspension of solid microscopic particles as an extreme pressure agent--unique solid dispersion which cushions gear teeth to help prevent tooth breakage and allows the use of lower viscosities. Recommended for heavily-loaded racing differentials and transmissions, Off Road racing and problem gearboxes. The viscosity characteristics allow the lubricant to resist throwoff and provide a film thickness similar to a 75W250 grade, while providing the same low fluid friction as an SAE 75W90."

I too wrote to RedLine and the only tranny oil they recommend for our cars is this one:

"75W90 NS
This GL-5-type geal oil doesn't contain the friction modifiers for limited-slip hypoid differentials. This makes the transmission synchronizers come to equal speeds more quickly, allowing faster shifting and much easier low-temperature shifting. Can also be used in racing limited-slip differentials where weak spring design causes too much wheel spin."

put it in @ 45k, now @ 55k and loving it - no first gear grind if you take the time to shift with precision - Kartboy bushings help immensely in that area...

Saw this on Redline's website for the first time:
"Subaru WRX PowerPack
Reduced turbo lag, smoother shifting, improved fuel economy and cooler operating temperatures are among the benefits of the WRX PowerPack from Red Line Oil. Dyno testing shows significant horsepower and torque gains all over the power range.

Included in the kit are 5 quarts of 5W30 motor oil, 4 quarts of 75W90 NS gear oil for the transaxle, 1 quart of 75W90 gear oil for the rear differential, 1 bottle of WaterWetter for the radiator, 1 bottle of SI-1 Complete Fuel System Cleaner, a sticker kit and a Red Line Oil embroidered hat.

Note: Due to the WRX STi 6-speed transmission's capacity, an extra quart of 75W90 NS is required and is reflected in the price of that particular kit."

http://www.redlineoil.com/team_gear.asp
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Old 01-03-2006, 02:34 AM   #10
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I have redline Shockproof HD in my tranny and I love it! Makes the shifting much smoother. Using Mobil 1 in the rear diff and AMSOil in the motor though.
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Old 01-03-2006, 01:06 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ripvw

Included in the kit are 5 quarts of 5W30 motor oil, 4 quarts of 75W90 NS gear oil for the transaxle, 1 quart of 75W90 gear oil for the rear differential, 1 bottle of WaterWetter for the radiator, 1 bottle of SI-1 Complete Fuel System Cleaner, a sticker kit and a Red Line Oil embroidered hat.

Is the hat OK to wear at an autocross event? I drive an STi.

Tee hee. I'm grinding through all these oil posts looking for the perfect 6mt tranny oil. I'm fine with the stock suby fluid, but I'm changing the clutch for the 2nd time and I want to get the "while I'm at it" stuff done too. There is a local shop that carries motul, but I can't find anything that puts my mind at ease as far as pouring the synthetic in there.

The redline "particles"... are they something that'll start, hypotheticly, eating the syncros? Or would that be a issue avoided with more frequent oil changes? I don't mind draining and refilling every 10k if A: it helps the shift, and B: it doesn't shorten the life of the gears.

I'm going to make some phone calls and post what, if anything, I learn.
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Old 01-03-2006, 01:39 PM   #12
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I've heard a lot of people are using a mixture of 1qt.Redline lightweight shockproof, 1qt GM syncromesh, and rest regual "dino" castrol 80w90. I think it's Uncle scotty's recipe or something. Look it up. It seems to get a lot of good feedback. I'm still a little hestant to mix fluids though.
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Old 01-03-2006, 04:29 PM   #13
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After a few phone calls, I went and picked up Redline 75W90ns for the tranny and 75w90 for the rear. (I've run that weight valvoline synthetic back there since 10k miles... @ ~ 40k now.) I'll post a short term opinion in a week. Long term after a tranny rebuild. I'll probably change out the tranny oil in another 10k just to take a look. At $7 a quart it's not too much for peace of mind.
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Old 01-05-2006, 12:06 AM   #14
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It seems like the shockproof fluids are created more for racing applications. Where the extra protection of the suspended particles is needed. But, I bet the sludge that people are finding, when they open up the transmission, are the remains of the particles that have been broken down. Since, these seem to be more for racing applications, I bet you need to change this fluid a lot more often. Its probably not something you can leave in your tranny for 30k miles. once the particles are broken down they are probably a liability.
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Old 01-05-2006, 12:18 AM   #15
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I just poured out the stock tranny fluid after 40k and it smells and looks like new (tastes like poop though). They call for a change at 60k or something like that... I guess that's valid.

The rear end fluid, which I'd replaced at 10k looked a little more burnt.

Just waiting for the ACT to show up so I can bolt it all back up and try it all out.
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Old 01-05-2006, 12:36 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TarmacRally
It seems like the shockproof fluids are created more for racing applications. Where the extra protection of the suspended particles is needed. But, I bet the sludge that people are finding, when they open up the transmission, are the remains of the particles that have been broken down. Since, these seem to be more for racing applications, I bet you need to change this fluid a lot more often. Its probably not something you can leave in your tranny for 30k miles. once the particles are broken down they are probably a liability.
From my experience, I went 15K on the first fill of shockproof, and it was doing fine when I took it out.

The last fill I was going to go 30K, but replaced the trans instead. After 20K it didn't seem to be working as well for the synchros (esp. third gear), but I was still able to abuse the trans w/o breaking anything.

I'm going to stick with 15K change intervals on the new trans.
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Old 01-08-2006, 07:34 PM   #17
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I, too called Redline about using their Shockproof product in my STi - They were pretty definitly advising against it. I have also heard that the solids that are held in suspension start to coagulate after some time. Since they make the product and seem pretty aware of the chemistry I decided to listen and not use it. That said - I suspect that these tranny's get a bit hot esp if you track the car - which causes problems over time so I try a small oil cooler next summer. I have also looked for steel synchros and didn't find any... With 50+ track day and 1 tranny rebuild behind me, I would prefer to spend my money on tires and brakes :-)


Ray
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Old 05-17-2006, 01:36 AM   #18
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Default Shockproof

Guys, there used to be issues at times with the medium coming out of suspension with Shockproof, but changes to the formula a few years back solved all of that.

While the theory that Shockproof's medium could wear on syncros is realistic but seldom realized, it's more of an issue that this fluid doesn't work when filters, screens, pumps, or small lines are invovled. It can cause clogging due to its affinity for metal, so it's more suitable for dog boxes and/or really synchro splash boxes. We hate to be so vague with application data on this product, but it's tough to know the details of every gearbox and where complications could arise. However, we do hear from lots of happy customers with Subarus that use Shockproof. We still need to recommend the NS, as it's a GL5 that meets the Sube requirement.

Best,

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Old 05-17-2006, 01:45 AM   #19
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Hi Cameron,

Not meaning to put you on the spot :-) BUT are you still recommending against using your shockproof formulation in the STi 6 speed? If you feel that it is ok to use it, what is your recommended change interval, and what whould you suggest about mixing it with other oils?

Thanks

Ray
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Old 05-17-2006, 10:32 AM   #20
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Based on Cameron's post above, I'd say you wouldn't want to use the Shockproof in the STi since it has a pump.
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Old 05-17-2006, 11:04 AM   #21
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Agreeded, but I would rather hear that form him...
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Old 05-17-2006, 04:02 PM   #22
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FWIW, last I checked, Redline's Australian web site shows the lightweight shockproof as the recommended trans fluid for the 5-spd, probably due to too many people complaining that their 75w90NS doesn't work well. Not sure if this applies to the STi 6-spd though.
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Old 05-17-2006, 04:13 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrD
could be because it contains a material which is abrasive towards (and probably accelerates the wear of) the synchro's...

(this comment will probably be followed by lots of "my transmission is fine" comments... you might consider emailing redline and asking them...)
Somehow I missed this thread before filling up my 5MT tranny with Lightweight Shockproof. Still, after a week of hard starts and such, "my transmission is fine". If I frag the damn thing, it's an excuse to get some RA gears or swap in a 6MT.
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Old 05-17-2006, 05:58 PM   #24
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Default Shockproof

We won't tell you that Shockproof works in the STi simply because we haven't seen it for ourselves. There are some pumps and coolers that can use Shockproof, but you need to have a lot of pump pressure and pretty big lines to ensure that the cholesterol effect due to affinity for metal won't clog it up. Again, we're careful about our reputation and level of expertise. This is a relatively small gearbox and that little pump might not be able to push the fluid.

There are many applications where we are very dialed in with the top builders or racers, so making an application is a no brainer. The coefficient of friction with Shockproof is actually lower than with 75W90NS, so wearing out synchros isn't very likely.

When comparing Shockproof to our traditional gear oils, it's first a matter of making sure it doesn't get stuck in a pump, line or filter. When it's then deemed safe to use it's a matter of shiftability--if it won't shift the way you'd like, it probably isn't treating the syncros well. If all proves fine, then you're good to go.

Does that help?
Cameron Evans
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Old 05-17-2006, 09:55 PM   #25
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Sounds a lot like "You are on your own until we figure this out" I think I will wait

Ray
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