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Old 01-02-2006, 01:49 AM   #1
triguy
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Default Testing new set up at Streets of Willow Springs

Did some modding on the WRX wagon the last two weeks and the turn-in has improved substantially. Will put the new set up to the test on the Streets of Willow Springs this weekend. The track is tight with many turns. I'm a bit concerned that I may have dialed out too much of the understeer and wondering if my set up is similar to others who track their WRX on the Streets.

Had the Noltec camber/caster plates trimmed.
Neg. camber went from -2.2 to -3.
Caster is set at 5.
Toe is 0 all the around.
Installed trailing arms with group-n bushings front and rear - made an amazing improvement in turn in.
Installed STI lateral links.
Kept the rear camber at -1.75.
Kept the rear sway bar on the softest setting.
Coilovers are Tein wagons - springs 7K front and 5K rear.

With this set up the wagon turns obediently on twisty roads. Compared to before it was more of an effort to turn the wagon where I wanted to go due to the understeer. Even though it was an effort, it was predictable and I could go balls out on the track with confidence. With this new untested set up I'll be more tentative on the track just to make sure that the rear stays planted and acts predictably, not twitchy.

What's your advise on tire pressures if the rear starts to slide some? I usually run 40 psi (hot) in the front and 36 psi (hot) in the rear
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Old 01-02-2006, 01:54 AM   #2
makofoto
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Tire pressure is tire dependent! 92's, RA-1's, SO-5's, 710's ?!

You know I'm going to suggest you AX first. When's the next San Diego event. We are having a Test & Tune next Sunday at Hollywood Park if you want in.

Sounds like your set-up is very mild ... you have your sway bar full soft ... that could be very "strong" if you're starting with a stiff bar. :-)
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Old 01-02-2006, 11:57 AM   #3
Vikingmoose
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Triguy - I did my first track event at Street a few weeks ago. I had a very similar setup to yours, sans the lateral links and trailing arms. I was running Hankook RS2s with cold pressures of 36(F) and 34(R). With this setup, I thought the car was very controlled. I've done a lot of autox and am no stranger to loose rear-ends (that didn't sound right ), but wanted to have the car a little more planted for Streets. I had no problems with excessive oversteer. The car felt very comfortable and predictable. The rear only came out if I wanted it too, and small changes in inputs did not affect the car's balance as much as they would at an autox. I think if you have any sort of driving experience that you shouldn't have any trouble.
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Old 01-02-2006, 12:52 PM   #4
triguy
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Hey Mako: I registered for the Streets on Saturday so unfortunately the auto-x will have wait for another weekend, although I'm always interested in seeing what you've done to your wagon lately. My tires are the STI stockers - Potenza RE070s.

Vikingmoose - glad to hear I'm not way off from you're set-up. This will be my fourth time at the Streets. I'll let you know how its goes. The trailing arm mod improves the handling quite a bit.
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Old 01-02-2006, 01:09 PM   #5
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Triguy:

I found that with a lot of front camber on my STi (-2.5 or more), I prefer -2.0 camber in the rear. The difference of just -.3 was very noticible to me at my last run at SoW. The nice part about adding a little more rear camber is you'll get better tire wear and you can add rotation with more rear bar. If you're at the softest setting and afraid of oversteer, definitely try it.

As for tires, try starting pressures at even around 35-36 cold. Check again after your first run. Also as you know you can add/subtract pressure fr/rr to fine tune.
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Old 01-02-2006, 06:26 PM   #6
triguy
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Higher neg camber in the rear was a consideration - something I may follow through depending on how the session goes this Saturday. Another wagon owner, Lowball, who tracks his wagon very often at Thunderhill is at -3 in the front and around -2.3 in the rear.
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Old 01-02-2006, 06:31 PM   #7
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We were at SoW most recently on 12/16 and I had a temp alignment setup with around -1.7 in the rear. It was -2 last time I was there. All other things being equal, I was not able to come out of several corners at WOT. The rear end wanted to come out just a bit and I would have to back down on the throttle. With just the extra rear camber I'm sure I could have cut another few seconds off my times. If I didn't worry about street tire wear, I'd probably run closer to what Lowball runs all the time. Even at my current settings, I'm getting a little more outer edge wear than I'd like at the track.
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Old 01-02-2006, 07:21 PM   #8
triguy
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Default WRX and STI rotate differently

Blkwrxwagn was commenting on the suspension forum of Club WRX net yesterday that the STI rotates much more easily than the WRX. So, I'm probably OK at this setting for gunning it out of the corners. He owns a WRX wagon and a 2006 STI. He's more into auto-x. Here's what he had to say about the handling difference:

You will also see diiferent spring setups for the STI. Traditionally on the WRX, you will run higher rate springs on the rear to help rotation. On the STI, you will see higher rate front springs and softer rear.

As for the Strano FSB, the endlink design does seem a bit weird. I've only recently put it on (used to run Cobb 25mm hollow). However, so far, no additional NVH which is good. I have a Test n' Tune session next weekend so I can compare the two bars, so I will know more then. However, the general consensus on Nasioc is that the bar is great and no one has broked the endlinks yet!

I will agree that a good AX setup does necessarily not make a good track setup, especially on a WRX. Having a car rotate at the relatively low AX speeds, can lead to an absolute snap oversteering monster at the higher track speeds!
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Old 01-02-2006, 09:18 PM   #9
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Yet we often find that if a WRX is set-up to handle well in longer steady state corners ... it's too loose in typical AX transitional elements ... slaloms, lane changes, Chicago Boxes. So if our AX course has a lot of transitional elements ... we end up tightening it up ... making it understeer on steady state corners like you would find at a track?! I'm getting to think that a WRX set-up for AX is not going to be too loose for a track day. STI's have what it takes to break away the tail whenever YOU choose.
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Old 01-02-2006, 09:30 PM   #10
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Sounds like the bushings/links are working out


<--------- needs to consider moving to So Cal and track my car year round
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Old 01-02-2006, 10:23 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makofoto
YSTI's have what it takes to break away the tail whenever YOU choose.
It's amazing what torque and good diffs can do for a car. With the STi, I can feel the diffs pull me out of the corners on the track. On my WRX wagon, I would usually spin one of the front tires on hard tight corner exits.
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Old 01-09-2006, 10:01 PM   #12
triguy
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Tested my wagon suspension set up at the Streets of Willow Springs this weekend. No issues at all with oversteer with the camber settings at -3 front and -1.7 in the rear. Transponder system broke down so no lap times unforunately. Wagon was staying with, and in some cases passing, STIs, EVOs, and M3s on street tires and definitely behind the ones with R-compounds. Turn in improved over the previous alignment settings. The turn-intensive track is hard on tires (pretty much everything really) and the Potenza RE070s would lose grip about 2/3 into a track session and I had to back down on speed in turns to minimize sliding. I'm considering getting a streetable R-compound and bumping the rear camber -2 to improve grip in the sweeping turns. Tirerack is still selling the Dunlop R-Compound for a low price.
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Old 01-09-2006, 10:36 PM   #13
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Get R's. You will be very happy. At SoW, they were good for -2 seconds a lap.
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Old 01-09-2006, 11:20 PM   #14
Vikingmoose
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triguy - Glad to hear the track event went well for you. I too want to get R-compounds and up the rear camber a bit more. (And by "up" I mean more negative.) A bit off topic, but what pads were you using? Any problems with fading?
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Old 01-09-2006, 11:41 PM   #15
triguy
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Stoptechs in the front and stockers in the rear with Carbotech XP8s front and back. No fade issues at all and an affordable pad. In fact, probably over-braked since I'm getting use to them. Ran the Carbotechs with front stock calipers too and they worked great. Can't compare them with any other race pad since they're only ones I've tried so far. Set up a brake ducting system by removing the fog lamps, put in fog covers and ran brake ducting from the former fog lamp location to the wheel well. Who knows if it makes a difference but it was an easy mod.
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Old 01-09-2006, 11:51 PM   #16
Vikingmoose
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That brake-duct sounds cool. I know I saw a DIY post somewhere on here on how to do it. Good to hear about the brakes. I was running Bobcats (definately NOT a track pad) and couldn't brake as deep and as hard as I wanted too. Even when I was "babying" the brakes they still faded a bit. I'll have to look into the Carbotech XP8s.
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Old 01-11-2006, 01:18 AM   #17
triguy
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I think Bigskywrx posted images of his brake duct mod on Clubwrx.net
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Old 01-11-2006, 03:50 AM   #18
makofoto
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Roman, check out my cooling system next time we're together. (Very Ghetto!) (FINALLY got my car back today! It's in the air at Henry's now; pulled the steering rack.)
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Old 01-11-2006, 08:13 PM   #19
triguy
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By pulled do you mean you're taking out your Rev-Lab quick turning rack? I thought you loved it?
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Old 01-11-2006, 09:39 PM   #20
makofoto
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Oh I Do! ... but it's not STX legal ... my new class. I thought there was something wrong with the oem rack ... the steering wheel kept turning and turning and turning and turning ...
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Old 01-11-2006, 10:17 PM   #21
The Beast
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from a racing site where most of the cars are FR, but this should give you som idea.


Advanced Suspention Setup, Toe? Camber? Spring Rates? Learn here!

Front spring rate increase:
More under steer; increase in proportional weight transfer to the front when rear wheel rate is not increased; reduces front traction when rear rate is not changed.
Usable adjustment: 150-600 lbs/in
Symptoms of too much adjustment: terminal under steer; front of car hops in corners; excessive wheel spin on inside front tire on FF cars.

Front spring rate decrease:
Less under steer; decreases proportional weight transfer to the front when rear wheel rate is not increased; increases front traction when rear rate is not changed.
Usable adjustment: 150-600 lbs/in
Symptoms of to much adjustment: Too much over steer; over steer then under steer if spring is so soft that the car bottoms out on lean, car bottoms out excessively with a jolting ride.

Rear spring rate increase:
More over steer; increase in proportional weight transfer to the rear when front wheel rate is not increased; increases rear traction when front rate is not changed.
Usable range: 100-600 lbs/in
Symptoms of too much adjustment: too much over steer; sidestep hop in corners; twitchy; pretty scary.

Rear spring rate decrease:
Less over steer: decreases proportional weight transfer to the rear when front wheel rate is not changed; increases rear traction when front rate is not changed
Usable range: 100-600 lbs/in
Symptoms of too much adjustment: car under steers; if way to soft car under steers then over steers as car bottoms out on lean; car bottoms out excessively with a jolting ride.

Front anti-roll bar stiffer: more under steer
Usable range: none to 1.25 inches in diameter
Symptoms of to much adjustment: terminal under steer; lifts inside front tire off the ground witch can cause massive wheel spin on FF cars; also not good for most effective tire usage as inside tire is now doing nothing.

Front anti-roll bar softer: less under steer
Usable range: none to 1.25 inches in diameter
Symptoms of to much adjustment: overstate scary; more like fun

Rear anti-roll bar stiffer: more over steer
Usable range: none to 1 inch in diameter
Symptoms of too much adjustment: Big-time over steer. Can cause inside rear tire to lift off the ground.

Rear anti-roll bar softer: less over steer
Usable range: none to 1 inch in diameter
Symptoms of to much adjustment: under steer; slow and boring

Front tire pressure higher: less under steer by reducing slip angels on most tires
Usable adjustment: up to 55psi hot
Symptoms of too much adjustment: no traction- tire crowned so more under steer; adds wheel spin in FF cars; jarring ride; center of tire wears out

Front tire pressure lower: more under steer by increasing slip angles on most tires
Usable adjustment: not less then 20psi
Symptoms of too much adjustment: edges of tire wear quickly because tire is folding over; feels mushy; tires chunk because low pressure means heat build up.

Rear tire pressure higher: less over steer by reducing slip angles on most tires
Usable range: up to 45psi hot
Symptoms of too much adjustment: no traction—tire is crowned so more over steer; bad wheel spin on FR cars; jarring ride; center of tire wears out.

Rear tire pressure lower: more over steer by incresing slip angles on most tires.
Usable range: not less then 20psi
Symptoms of too much adjustment: edges of tire wear quickly because tire is folding over; feels mushy; tires chunk because low pressure means heat build up

More negative camber front: less under steer because of better lateral traction as tread is flatter on the ground under side load.
Usable range: up to 3.5 degrees negative
Symptoms of too much adjustment: poor braking; car is road crown sensitive; twitchy; front tires wear on inside edge

More negative camber rear: less over steer because of better lateral traction as tread is flatter on the ground under side load. More rear grip
Usable range: up to 2.5 degrees negative
Symptoms of too much adjustment: more over steer; car feels twitchy in back; tires wear out on inside edge; less breakaway warning when limit is exceeded.

Ride height to low (typical beginner mistake): car is twitchy with unpredictable dynamics. Bump steer make you life miserable.
Usable range: usually 1.5-2.0 inches lower then stock unless car has been modified to go lower.
Symptoms of too much adjustment: everything that could possibly go wrong: sudden over/under steer; twitchy due to bump steer; very harsh ride; premature tire wear.

Toe in – front: car is stable going straight. Turn in is average
Usable range: 0-1/8th inch
Symptoms of too much adjustment: car has slow twitchiness under braking; feels odd; kills outside edge of tires

Toe out – front: Car turns in well; works pretty well on FF car as they tend to toe-in under load.
Usable range: 0-1/4 inch
Symptoms of too much adjustment: Car is really twitchy under braking; car wanders on straight road; kills inside edge of tire

Toe in – rear: car is less likely to over steer when the throttle is lifted
Usable range: 0-1/8th inch
Symptoms of too much adjustment: weird, slow, rocking movement in back; feels slow but still unstable; wears outside edge of tires.

Toe out – rear: Helps car rotate useful in low speed and slalom courses; very common on FF pro rally cars.
Usable range: 0-1/8th inch
Symptoms of too much adjustment: not to good for street driving; causes lift throttle over steer; makes violent side to side rocking motions in the rear; tie wears on inside more.

Positive front caster: helps stability; suspension will get more negative camber when turning; reducing positive caster reduces steering effort. (Negative caster is not usable)
Usable range: 4-9 degrees positive
Symptoms of too much adjustment: can increase under steer especially in cars with wide low-profile tires. Can increase steering effort.

Single adjustable shock stiffer: Better turn in; better transient response; causes slower onset of over/under steer by slowing weight transfer depending on what end of the car is adjusted.
Symptoms of too much adjustment: suspension becomes unresponsive; ride gets harsh; car skips over bumps, loosing traction; Causes a big delay in weight transfer resulting in strange handling like under steer then late corner stage over steer.

Single adjustable shock softer: slower transient response; quicker onset of over/under steer
Symptoms of too much adjustment: car oscillates due to under dampened spring motion, like a boat. Car gets twitchy in turns. Feels unstable.
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Old 01-11-2006, 10:27 PM   #22
makofoto
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Some of this doesn't apply to our Suby's, ie. the Front Sway bar effects are the opposite on our cars because when the front rolls we lose a lot of camber ... which creates more understeer. If you have added camber and caster and stiffer springs in front ... you might not need a very stiff front sway bar. A couple of friends are going to be AX'ing their STI's with 32 mm Stranos FSB's this weekend ... we are anxiously awaiting their results. They have mild coil over set-ups so they are hoping that this hollow bar, equal to a 29mm solid bar will have a positive effect.
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Old 01-13-2006, 04:45 PM   #23
Drew888
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Mako,

Can you take a few pics of your cooling system?
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