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Old 01-03-2006, 09:43 PM   #1
makofoto
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Default AXTiming, Multi Cars, Multi Laps ?

At our Test & Tune AX this weekend we are going to try and run two cars at a time ... two laps at a time ... 2nd lap being a flying lap.

They did this at the JGTC AX a couple of years ago.

Does anyone know where one would place the timing lights in order to get seperate lap times for both cars, both laps !?
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Old 01-03-2006, 11:18 PM   #2
Patrick L
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You talking about on seperate courses like a prosolo or like a normal solo2 with multi cars on course?
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Old 01-04-2006, 12:32 AM   #3
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Talk to AutoWRXer, Joel. I believe the mirrorkhana format Atlanta SCCA does is like this.

-Tom
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Old 01-04-2006, 02:44 AM   #4
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Single course ... slightly short ... but mainly two laps so that one can take advantage of having just driven the course.



The little dots "above" the Start and Finish are where we thought the timing lights should go.
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Old 01-04-2006, 07:40 AM   #5
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Holy friggin cone happiness Mako. You could eliminate 3/4 of the cones in your sweeping section.
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Old 01-04-2006, 08:13 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoobie Doogie
Holy friggin cone happiness Mako. You could eliminate 3/4 of the cones in your sweeping section.
I agree... but that's what they are known for.... Many SD clubs use too many cones to outline the course. I don't know if they've gotten out of the habit of chalking them either.

Mako, you can reduce the amount of cones in those two sweepers to about 10 by just creating 5 gates. You'd still have the same line, but the driver can choose which is the fastest way to get around. By using that many cones, you're not giving *any* drivers an option on how to drive it.

And it's a test n tune, right? There's no reason to have walls like that only to have to reset that many. Reset 10 or reset 2.... hmm... tough choice.

Add onto that... the slalom at the end of corner 6 into the 'start' has way too many cones also. Cars can come in too hot and nail all those cones by just sliding... especially if you're reusing that area for the car to begin their 2nd lap... they're going to come into there hot. Also look at the cones in the 'finish' way too many in that 'chute'.

A test n tune, at least here, is for driver to work on their car and tune settings, power, & driver. Having too many cones DETRACTS from the driving of the car where the driver can't pick their own line... and that's 1/2 the battle.

Also, the finish doesn't look to have enough room for a safe shutdown after going through the lights. Not enough run-off.

Remember, for the most part, anything that isn't a 'key cone' should be considered to be removed from the course as all it does is add clutter and visual confusion to the course.

Roger's solo course design handbook, page 32 and 33: http://www.oregonregionsolo2.com/pdf...gn%203.5.3.pdf

Also look up pages 53 through 57..... and learn the difference between 'Gated courses', 'miniature road courses' and.... Sea of Pylons. All I see on your course is the 'sea of pylons'.

--kC
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Old 01-04-2006, 08:22 AM   #7
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You'd need special software programing that would be able to alternate the time values as they cross from one car to the next. Nothing simple or reliable if you ask me and will really become a mess if someone finishes without taking their second lap or stops off course.

Your atendees would benifit more if your course crossed over itself and they could get segment times and then a cumulative time. Would really help them out in seeing how improving one section will affect the following sections etc.

Just my $0.02

MirrorKhana style (at least in Salina) doesn't involve any timing equipment.

Cone happy isn't bad for a school. Assuming this is for Novices. Too many cones are confusing, but even if you use cones sparingly in your region if your attendees go to other regions and see a 'sea of cones', they may be overwhelmed. Perhaps use the second half of the day to re-design the course for the same path, but a different cone configuration. This would be ideal for helping them read the line and see who are the 'cone-to-cone' drivers in the group.

Good luck.
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Old 01-04-2006, 08:32 AM   #8
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"Cone happy isn't bad for a school. Assuming this is for Novices. Too many cones are confusing"

I dis-agree that cone happiness helps novices and you apparently do as well. They'll never learn to pick their cones properly if they can't see them and only adds to students confusion. I believe that it is best for them to learn how and where to position their car relative to the "key" cones. It's also a PITA to instruct with so darn many cones.
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Old 01-04-2006, 09:24 AM   #9
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It's a test n tune... not a school.

Just thought of something as to how to do two laps. You may not like it, but I feel you REALLY need a safe shutdown area, and I don't see it on that map.

I can't upload pics, but I'll see if I can describe it.

A good way of not tripping the lights for the 2nd round is to not go through them at all during your 2nd run through.

Your design can allow this by moving the start lights (specifically the reflector on the inside of the course) to the other side of the start 'chute' before the 1st turn is made... inside the part that looks like >. (counting up from the 1st cone on the left at the start... 10 cones up). And PLEASE remove the cones at the exit of the start that makes the opposite wall... turn that into one exit gate. (I can draw up what I mean tonight).

I would also turn corner 1 into a 2 cone slalom... remove the last cone. Why?

The finish sucks. Plain and simple. You don't have enough room to safely shut down after the lights. It should be straight... not a turn. You only allow 50 feet in that finish of straight after the lights... not enough, at all.

So, a way to remedy this is to have the finish something different than the previous 2 times through this section.... this is hard to explain, but something I can draw up pretty sample tonight. In other words, on your 1st and 2nd laps, you're going to do your turning, etc through this corner.

The finish, would be something like after the slalom at corner 1, you'd come into an exit chute nice and straight and have plenty of room to shut it down safely... with no turning/spinning... that's the whole point.

To accomplish this, you might have to re-design that corner a little and move that corner upwards more to allow the finish to be safe.

Hope I did well describing it...

One more element of note... the slalom at corner 2 is too tight (going up right side of page). From the scale provided, you have a cone at every 25 feet. Slalom cones should be AT LEAST 45 feet apart. Again... all covered in the Solo-II course design handbook... so you can re-construct that whole corner leading into the slalom. (And the slalom at corner 1 is also too tight... hence removing one of the cones will help tremendously with both transition on course, and the finish.)

--kC
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Old 01-04-2006, 09:37 AM   #10
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Here is my MSpaint rendition of what you do to the lights and the cones. As far as the finish, I'm *assuming* there is PLENTY OF SPACE after the white on the map on the bottom to stop?



-Tom
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Old 01-04-2006, 10:02 AM   #11
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Yep.. that's what I was thinking of/trying to describe.

The finish can still be fixed so you go through the lights and it's straight from the lights... like rotate the finish cones 20ish degrees to the right so its straightlined and any turning after the lights is eliminated.
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Old 01-04-2006, 10:55 AM   #12
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depends on the timer our clubs (ja circuits) will do that out of the box on up to 4 cars
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Old 01-04-2006, 01:50 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC
One more element of note... the slalom at corner 2 is too tight (going up right side of page). From the scale provided, you have a cone at every 25 feet. Slalom cones should be AT LEAST 45 feet apart. Again... all covered in the Solo-II course design handbook... so you can re-construct that whole corner leading into the slalom. (And the slalom at corner 1 is also too tight... hence removing one of the cones will help tremendously with both transition on course, and the finish.)
Yep, agreed. In fact, that one isn't just a "good course design guideline", the 45' slalom distance is actually a rule in the rulebook.

2006 Solo rules, Section 2.2.B;
Quote:
The course shall be at least 15 feet wide, and single-file slalom markers shall be at least 45 feet apart. Any series of course markers which are generally in a line and have the effect of a slalom are considered to be a slalom. Additional course markers associated with the slalom markers to form gates, “boxes”, etc., do not cancel this limit.
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Old 01-04-2006, 02:09 PM   #14
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Thank you very much guys for your thoughtful input!

I also hate cone busy courses. Originally we weren't suppose to have any newbies at this Test & Tune, but Team Blew keeps growing and we couldn't exclude our novices. Luckily we will have a dedicated Novice Coordinator to shepherd them through the day. We will probably even do a parade lap for them, besides instructor runs, etc. But the cone "walls" were mainly for their benefit. But I will certainly reduce where we can when we do set-up. Gates for the sweepers is good. Our local SCCA clubs use vast amounts of cones in the Start/Finish area. Our last event, the ESX Nationals AX, we (barely) got by with our 142 cones. We just bought another 150 cones ($4.50 ea) because we also need to provide a decent Grid for this event, plus Skid Pad and some safety perimeter cones.

I always have a minimum of 55 feet (18 paces) between slalom cones. I just wasn't paying attention to the distances when I put in that slalom; someone had mentioned 6 cone slalom so I just put in 6 dots.

One reason for doing two laps at a time was, besides being fun and different was that the course was a bit short. We now have the option of moving to a larger (more expensive) lot, but I almost want to stay contained so that our fewer then usual workers aren't so spread out.

I don't know what you guys have to pay, but in crowded Los Angeles, that small lot rents for $1,500/day! The big lot is $2,000/day but is a good 2.5 times larger. That's as much as we pay for the huge lot at CA Speedway but Hollywood Park is much more central for most of us. We can go in on Saturday after 2 PM to set-up our course, but not earlier without having to pay for another day. I understand that in places like NY state they get big school/university lots for free since they are public property!

Doing flying laps requires very careful attention from the starter and course workers obviously. The starters at the JGTC event didn't/wouldn't take drivers and cars into consideration, there were lots of people just "off the street." So we had lots of incidents where we experienced drivers would quickly catch the "civilians," resulting in time consuming re-runs. But, it was kind of fun chasing down the other cars, especially the drifters who thought they were fast!

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Old 01-04-2006, 07:28 PM   #15
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Don't worry Mako. We pay big bucks for big lots on the East Coast too. Hope you guys have a fun and safe event.
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