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Old 01-09-2006, 11:57 AM   #1
REX8
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Default Why was my "openecu" post deleted???

It is not illegal to inquire about using stoftware to make LEGAL copies. All of my questions fell under a fair use exception. Why was the thread deleted?
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Old 01-09-2006, 01:01 PM   #2
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Because money makes the world go 'round.

Just take it to the openecu or tari forums... no use arguing here. They'll probably just ban you after they get tired of locking and deleting threads.
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Old 01-09-2006, 02:44 PM   #3
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beause you can't make legal coppies. period.
and both companies that stand to loose are either vendors or are partnered with vendors that pay to make this site work
i reported it right after you posted it
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Old 01-09-2006, 03:00 PM   #4
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Your baseless legal interpretation isn't law, nor are you a moderator, so you have no place to decide what is and is not legal, nor what we can an cannot discuss. You're a dick for reporting a perfectly legit post, and so is the moderator who deleted the thread.
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Old 01-09-2006, 03:11 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcowger
Your baseless legal interpretation isn't law, nor are you a moderator, so you have no place to decide what is and is not legal, nor what we can an cannot discuss. You're a dick for reporting a perfectly legit post, ....
Seconded. I left it here on purpose... it looked perfectly fine to me.

An ECU's tuned map is not a copywritten piece of literature, plain and simple.
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Old 01-09-2006, 03:37 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxx
both companies that stand to loose are either vendors or are partnered with vendors that pay to make this site work
We should probably go on deleting any do it yourself type posts and any pertaining to venders that don't support this board according to this standard.

Honestly, this is an honerable project these guys are tackling. It is a great service for the suby community and is great for people that need to save some money and would like to do things themself.

And making a copy of copyrighted material that you own (such as a CD) for yourself is not illegal.
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Old 01-09-2006, 03:40 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RK Performance
We should probably go on deleting any do it yourself type posts and any pertaining to venders that don't support this board according to this standard.

Honestly, this is an honerable project these guys are tackling. It is a great service for the suby community and is great for people that need to save some money and would like to do things themself.

And making a copy of copyrighted material that you own (such as a CD) for yourself is not illegal.
Yep.

There's no reason why we should support the monopoly on Subaru ECU reflashing. FHI and Subaru certainly don't discriminate between those who reverse engineer their ECUs, and there's no reason for this forum to do it either...

What was the original thread about? I must have missed it.
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Old 01-09-2006, 03:42 PM   #8
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Cobb absolutely has the right to protect their AP device and its inner workings. No one is trying to or discussing hacking the actual AP hardware device or their Windows software. Now if there was a hack to make Streettuner work on all AP devices, they'd have some recourse. But no one cares about doing that, because we have free software like Enguinity and Ecuedit.

The Openecu project is based solely around SSM and the flash routines, all of which only Subaru and its ECU partners (i.e. Denso) are responsible for. No one else has any business telling the general public what they can and cannot do with SSM.
Quote:
both companies that stand to loose are either vendors or are partnered with vendors that pay to make this site work
We're not responsible for making someone's business model work for them after the advent of a cheaper or free solution. They're big boys, they can run their own business. Even if Cobb and Ecutek's ECU business completely crashed (which I doubt, they'll corner tuners and bribe them to refuse to use free tools and make consumers pay $600-800 for a "license" to use Denso's IP, and people will still trust Cobb's OTS maps, no need for laptop, etc.), life will go on. NASIOC won't go down. Vendors won't go out of business. People will just spend their $600-800 elsewhere, like on injectors, turbo kits, whatever.
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Old 01-09-2006, 03:55 PM   #9
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the MEANS to the oem ecu tune has been a cash cow for some time now.

some vendors made money on selling the MEANS to tuning the oem ecu. in one particular case, it was the entire business model and sole "product" offered.

some vendors made money both on the MEANS as well as the TUNE ITSELF, selling a licence for the use of the MEANS as well as the data/parameters contained therein.

a tune by a professional will always be a commodity, but times are changing and the MEANS will no longer be a way to extort money from those wishing to alter the parameters of their ECUs.

i doubt denso gives a crap. this free reflashing stuff is bound to increase sales of ECUs in the long run.
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Old 01-09-2006, 04:00 PM   #10
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Not to mention the fee a vendor pays here gives them the right to sell on this board, it's not to protect themselves from possible competition. They are paying for a privilidge, not a right to dictate what's on this board which is supposed to be open forum so long as it's legal.
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Old 01-09-2006, 04:07 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000
i doubt denso gives a crap. this free reflashing stuff is bound to increase sales of ECUs in the long run.
LOL!

Half of the boneheads on here can barely get their AP to work. I can't wait until the free laptop utilities catch on.
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Old 01-09-2006, 04:21 PM   #12
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Exactly. I guess I just reel when people are not supportive of helping one another out in making their cars faster, better, more reliable, etc. Everything I do to my car I catalog and share here because I'm here to "further the community" if you will. I enjoy toying with my car, even if I'm guilty of pride sometimes.

I don't have anything to hide. I could conceal what I do and what I know and try to charge for it, but I wouldn't bother posting here if I felt that way. I've got a real day job (err, don't tell my boss I'm posting at work! ). My car is my fun time, and I hope that I can always feel free to share what I do and learn without having to charge for it or be censored.

If there is anything I said that a moderator thinks is illegal, I have no problem taking responsibility for it in lew of removing the post. Those who run this website have no need to feel they will be held legally responsible for anything I post here. I will furnish my name and address to Cobb or Ecutek if they want to sue me so this can be laughed out of court and put to bed for good. I'm not trying to hide. NASIOC is not harboring criminals or criminal activity and doesn't need to be bullied around by any business over this. We're all (mostly?) adults here and can take responsibility for our own actions.

FWIW, I think Cobb did it right with their solution. They provide a real handheld hardware device. Cobb will still be selling AP's in 6 months because people trust their OTS maps, its convenient, well written and documented software, etc.

Last edited by Freon; 01-09-2006 at 04:25 PM. Reason: gr4mm4r!
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Old 01-10-2006, 11:20 AM   #13
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Quote:
No one is trying to or discussing hacking the actual AP hardware device or their Windows software.
actually that was exactly what the post in question was about ... circumvention of the marriage process
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Old 01-10-2006, 12:03 PM   #14
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Well, see, who can check that now, because you felt the need to play cop.
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Old 01-10-2006, 12:13 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxx
actually that was exactly what the post in question was about ... circumvention of the marriage process
Actually, if you cared to read and understand that post prior to reporting it, you'd see he was asking for software to read/write ROM's from one ECU to another. You used your imagination and came up with "illegal" uses, and are now trying to argue a point that wasn't the specific question asked.
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Old 01-10-2006, 03:49 PM   #16
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Quote:
one ECU to another
right with a married ecu .. thus not cool

when a post starts out "i don't want to get into the legal ramifications....."
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Old 01-10-2006, 05:26 PM   #17
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eating aint cheating....

+1 for Open ECU it's only makes the community better not worse... and tuners still get cash for their skills in being able to find what best for each motor.
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Old 01-10-2006, 05:45 PM   #18
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Quote:
Open ECU it's only makes the community better not worse
i agree but not at the expense of people that have put big $ and effort into it. thats what copyright law is all about

the ability to read change and reflash is awesome .. and the ability to fix the cl/ol delay in the 04 is almost mandatory

but copying base maps/circumventing copy protection without permission is not OK ..
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Old 01-10-2006, 06:15 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxx
but copying base maps/circumventing copy protection without permission is not OK ..
For personal use it is OK.
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Old 01-10-2006, 06:22 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxx
right with a married ecu .. thus not cool

when a post starts out "i don't want to get into the legal ramifications....."
The "marrying" system is a simple lock so that it can't be used on several different cars at once. This is just a moot point anyways...

Regarding the ability to pull the maps off of flashed (married) ECU's... why bother protecting it when you can download it right from the source? --> http://cobbtuning.com/sti/accessport/index.html



Now when people start discussing how to hack the AP units to circumvent the lock check (if it "married" or not), then bring it to someone's attention. FWIW, the arguement for/against this point would be exactly the same as the arguement for/against modchipping console gaming systems.
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Old 01-10-2006, 06:36 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8Complex
Regarding the ability to pull the maps off of flashed (married) ECU's... why bother protecting it when you can download it right from the source? -->
Think about that for a minute, then don't post what you come up with 'cause Cobb's lawyers will come take your house away.
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Old 01-10-2006, 08:58 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freon
Think about that for a minute, then don't post what you come up with 'cause Cobb's lawyers will come take your house away.
How's that? They put it on their site, it's freely downloadable from there. If they wanted to protect it, they would've. *shrug*
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Old 01-10-2006, 10:41 PM   #23
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The files you download from Cobb's website are not full ROM dumps. They only work with the AP and are of an otherwise non-standard and unknown format. (absolutely no attempt is being made to hack these files as far as I have seen). You can't download Cobb's map and flash them to an ECU with anything but an AP. Cobb also does not disclose precisely what they're doing on their maps, either. What target AF they have, their wastegate DC settings, etc, etc. All you know is it is a file that works with AP and makes your car faster, that's about it. Even when you get Protuned, all you know is they're fiddling with bits. Even if they let you glance at the screen, you don't really have access to the raw information. You just trust they know what they're doing to put the right values in the right tables and such. *deep breath*

Openecu stuff works on the raw binary dumps of the ECU ROM, not some oddball unknown file format, nor any encryption. It makes the most sense to do it that way since it is a very open project. No one is trying to hide anything, that's the point. The files are, bit for bit, what is stored on the flash ROM of your ECU.

The raw binary ROM dumps from the openecu stuff contains every writable byte you could possibly put on the ECU. Nothing is hidden. The file format is not at all obfuscated. Anyone who has previously figured out the ECU file formating (which bits are which tuning values) can look at the file and tell you precisely what the new tuning settings are. Ecutek and Cobb could easily take someone's Openecu raw ROM dump and see , because they've already figured this stuff out. Again, to contrast, those files you download from Cobb's website are not in any necessarily meaningful format. They could be encrypted. Who knows, but again, it is irrelevent. All you need to know is the format you are downloading only works on an AP... There's a contrast here...

Besides breaking the ECU totally, you cannot stop anyone with SSM from reading an ECU (or at least this is to the best of my knowledge). Anyone with working knowledge of the ECU could look at the ROM dump and tell you exactly all the tuning settings. Ecutek can read Cobb's images... Cobb can read Ecutek's... All that is needed is some very basic tools to interface with SSM and you *own* the ECU.

Ecutek is basically the equivalent to Ecuflash and Ecuedit. Cobb further adds a handheld device so you don't need a laptop, and an encrypted and/or obfuscated file format, which is compiled into a normal, RAW dump. I'd like to add I know this all because is is plainly obvious. I've never seen any of Ecuteks work, never used an AP, never used eithers' software. But it's pretty obvious what is going on, since it is so heavily based outside of Cobb and Ecutek's control. It's all centered around Subaru technology, and that's the important part. Mastery of Subaru's technology is a great power. The Subaru ECU is an inherently unsafe and uncontrolled place to put sensitive data (such as your supposed "IP"), since anyone with said mastery can read off what you put there.

Openecu is putting all of Subaru's technology in the hands of the consumer. The work is still essentially the same as what Ecutek and Cobb have already done, which is hack Subaru's protocols and files, but this time the file format is obvious and open, nothing is obfuscated, and no one is charging for it (besides an $80 cable, but even information on how to build your own has been posted).

If you're at all familiar with doing a firmware update on a computer, flashing a car's ECU ROM is pretty much exactly the same thing. Update your BIOS on your motherboard? Same thing. You need a boot disk (in this case, you have to send some bites over SSM) to keep the computer from booting into Windows (or in this case, starting the engine), then you run a special program that knows how to talk to your BIOS chip (Ecuflash, AP, etc), then it overwrites the BIOS firmware with a small raw binary ROM file. Doing it with your car is the same thing, except for instead of an Intel chip its a Motorola or whatever CPU, the memory allocation is different, etc. But it is still essentially a computer with a firmware. ... And your firmware (BIOS) stores a great deal of the information the CPU uses to determine your boost, timing, knock correction, fueling, and so forth.

As an aside, the OL/CL TSB on some cars? Reflash! Your dealer has an SSM doohickie, it does the same thing as the openecu stuff, Ecutek, or Cobb! Obviously theirs doesn't add 4psi and 3 degrees of timing, though. If you can change the same bits in your ROM yourself and fix your OL/CL transition yourself, just like your dealer. Actually, if someone could download an ECU using the opensource stuff from before and after their TSB, we would easily be able to see exactly what they're doing.

Cobb has no more right to bully around the consumer or tell them to fudge off than Ecutek does towards Cobb. I'm sure Ecutek wasn't too happy with Cobb figuring it out as well (Ecutek was first, right?), but there's nothing Ecutek can do about it, since they don't own Subaru or Denso, they didn't create the standards or protocols, and have no right to tell anyone to not use them. The same applies here, except no one is collecting hundreds of dollars for what boils down to use of Subaru's systems. People just want to have control over their own, legally owned hardware.

There are unavoidable (and obvious once you understand whats going on ) issues where this knowledge can be used for less than ethical means. I hope people realize that they don't need to, and rather use the opensource stuff from start to finish for their car's reflashing needs.

I hope this also helps people understand why I'm going to roll my eyes over Cobb or Ecutek getting in such a hissy fit over someone else entering (and possibly crashing) the market.

That said, the opensource stuff has a long way to go. You're not going to click a button and make it work. There's still a lot of work to do. Everyone can help though. I'm going to try to help decode my ROM, since it is not supported yet.

edit: SSM is "Subaru Select Monitor" and is kinda like OBD-2, except it is Subaru's own. Your ECU also supports OBD-2 as required by law, but SSM does all the special Subaru stuff, and flashing. Both are relatively low-tech serial connections. Essentially like a Modem (i.e dialup internet), but just over a short cable. Baud rate is actually about the same. 2400 to 19.2k

Last edited by Freon; 01-10-2006 at 11:02 PM.
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Old 01-10-2006, 10:52 PM   #24
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^^ good post.

Last edited by Gethin; 01-10-2006 at 10:52 PM. Reason: typo!
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Old 01-11-2006, 08:04 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxx
i agree but not at the expense of people that have put big $ and effort into it. thats what copyright law is all about
This is laughable....I think you need to read less propaganda.

Stephen Done figured the original stuff out in his garage in a very similar fashion to the way Openecu did it. The only thing Ecutek should be mad about is where the alleged $3m british pounds they spent on development went.

Yahoo Posting #1

Yahoo Posting #2

Yahoo Posting #3
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