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Old 01-12-2006, 11:01 PM   #1
Scooby921
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Default AP - Stage 2 - Detonation?

I think my car is having detonation issues. I don't know that much about the topic and really don't know exactly what detonation sounds like. If anyone can give me some helpful input on the issue I'd greatly appreciate it.

Background:
At the time my car was running Cobb's Stg 2 93 octane base map with a TBE and an IC y-pipe. My car has been making a ticking noise. I noticed it several weeks ago and it is starting to both annoy and scare me a bit. The event seems to occur in the 2500-3500 RPM range around 5psi boost. If I increase boost it goes away.

Things I've Tried:
Exhaust leak - At first I thought it was just an exhaust leak. In trying that theory I reved the engine while parked...the ticking noise was not audible. I figure if it was an exhaust leak it would be independent of load on the turbo.

Engine mapping - I thought the engine mapping may have been bad, so I went to the STX map and then down to the stock mapping. It didn't solve the issue. I also read that running higher octane fuel could reduce detonation/knocking. In an attempt to try this I flashed to the stg 2 91 map and still ran 93 octane gas. This again didn't solve the problem.

IC Y-pipe: The only other thought I've had was the IC y-pipe. I figured that was allowing better flow than the ECU expected and could be causing the engine to run lean. I've coupled this with the above 91 map and 93 octane fuel. My engine still ticks.

I did go to Tuning Factory (Godspeed Inc) and have Dan go for a ride with me. He said I did have "a pinging", but did not say whether or not it was a detonation issue. He mentioned that it could be due to the OL/CL fuel mapping on the ECU. I figured the ECU and knock sensor would've picked up on it by now and "learned"...I'm at a loss.

The only other options I can think of are removing the AP and going back to stock or getting a protune. I'd rather get the protune, but it costs money and I really don't want to do it before I add more parts in the spring.

Has anyone else run into this problem with an AccessPORT? Can any of you suggest other options to try? I appreciate any help you guys/gals can offer.

Thanks in advance
-Brad
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Old 01-12-2006, 11:58 PM   #2
darksands
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I have ticking that goes away after I accelerate. I cant hear the ticking unless im next to something that echo's it back. If im driving without anything next to me, I cant hear it. Det sounds like rattling rocks in a soup can. Can you find someone to take a datalog? The ECU can only learn to a certain point. If the case is Det, then it must be really really bad det. But I cant see how the off the shelf map can det so badly.

Can you hear the ticking with your windows rolled up?
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Old 01-13-2006, 12:01 AM   #3
Kha0S
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I haven't personally used Cobb's map, but I have found in the stock maps that with any kind of boost higher than stock, the region from around 2200-2800 RPM at low boost, partial throttle (medium load range, about 5-10 psig), the fueling is abnormally lean and was causing substantial ignition retard.

Problem is, even the "high detonation" fuel map has the same lean region in it, so ignition retard is the only thing that seems to save the car.

Now, I have no idea what Cobb's Stage 2 map looks like, and I assume that they've found that lean area long ago, but your car could have some kind of small variance that's resulting in a particularly bad tolerance for the lean condition there.

Try to get someone with an SSM compatible logger (Tactrix+ecuExplorer, DeltaDash, Street Tuner, etc.) to log your IAM, ignition timing, knock correction, engine load, RPM, and boost... if you're seeing low IAM (anything less than 8) or lots of negative knock correction values, that's a sure sign that the ECU is hearing knock and is pulling timing to try and compensate.
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Old 01-13-2006, 12:10 AM   #4
06WRXTR
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are you sure its not just wastegate flutter?
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Old 01-13-2006, 01:48 AM   #5
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Im running stage two also. I went in for a tune last week hoping to get rid of simliar complaints you are. Turns out it was a bad detonation problem, the tuned solved it. I was told that the map adapted to my ECU poorly. To give you an idea, when they put it on the dyno before the tune i was at 189whp, 2.5 hours and $330 later, the tuned map got me over 240whp.
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Old 01-13-2006, 09:46 AM   #6
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Damn that's crazy. I just got stage 2 installed yesterday. So far it feels pretty strong. But after all the reading I have done I immediately scheduled a Protune for Monday to go ahead and check it all out. I don't want to have my 30k car blow up.
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Old 01-13-2006, 10:57 AM   #7
Scooby921
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 06WRXTR
are you sure its not just wastegate flutter?
I don't think so...I've had wastegate flutter before and know what that sounds like, and as far as I know, wastegate flutter generally happens off throttle....or can wastegate flutter occur under load? Can anyone go deeper into this and possible suggest ways to fix a wastegate flutter problem?
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Old 01-13-2006, 11:13 AM   #8
idkew
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loose heat shield somewhere?

did you add an egt and not tighten the manifold's heat shied correctly?
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Old 01-13-2006, 11:44 AM   #9
parker/slc/gc8fan
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Wastegate flutter mostly ocurrs under partial load, it can occur during WOT.
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Old 01-13-2006, 12:09 PM   #10
Sperm
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I get some flutter around neutral intake pressure. -.01 to +.01 mmHG

I really wanna get a protune anyway, that statement up there about 50 some HP for 300 bucks makes me want it all the more!
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Old 01-13-2006, 12:58 PM   #11
DanBelford
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Guys Im running a stg2 car and dont notice any knock with the AP stock map. What kinda EGT's are you guys getting. I will let you know what mine is after lunch.
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Old 01-13-2006, 03:24 PM   #12
breathinez
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Not to sound stupid or anything, but before I did any mods on my car I noticed some ticking. But I have realized its just the injectors making the noise. Not saying thats in your case but as a noob at the time I thought my car I had just bought had bad valves and was going to see if I could have them adjusted. I came from having Hondas that I was used to having the valves adjusted.
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Old 01-13-2006, 06:55 PM   #13
Paulie V
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I had a similar issue and am running the stock map until I can figure it out. I did some datalogging and it seems like I might have an intake leak from someplace (the A/F learning is high). I think that, coupled with the oxygenated winter fuel and leaned out Cobb map was causing the pinging.
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Old 01-13-2006, 07:28 PM   #14
Scooby921
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idkew
loose heat shield somewhere?

did you add an egt and not tighten the manifold's heat shied correctly?
No loose heatshield that I would have caused. The only ones I've touched were never put back on the car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBelford
Guys Im running a stg2 car and dont notice any knock with the AP stock map. What kinda EGT's are you guys getting. I will let you know what mine is after lunch.
I don't have an EGT gauge, so I can't say for sure, but if I'm running lean enough to detonate...I don't think I want to know how high they are getting!

Quote:
Originally Posted by breathinez
Not to sound stupid or anything, but before I did any mods on my car I noticed some ticking. But I have realized its just the injectors making the noise. Not saying thats in your case but as a noob at the time I thought my car I had just bought had bad valves and was going to see if I could have them adjusted. I came from having Hondas that I was used to having the valves adjusted.
I didn't know that injectors could be heard. In any case, would that be a load dependent problem?

Thanks for all the suggestions and help thus far. I think I'm going to replace the turbo to DP gasket this weekend just to further eliminate the possibility of it being an exhaust leak.
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Old 01-15-2006, 02:34 AM   #15
Scooby921
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OK, so I decided to try the wastegate adjustment as it seems to be the common fix for wastegate flutter.

Three turns did the trick! Thanks to 06WRXTR for suggesting that it be that simple of a problem!
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Old 01-15-2006, 10:10 AM   #16
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So that fixed it? You don't hear the same sound any more? I heard a light "tink tink" as I rolled into the throttle and boost was building with Cobb's stage 1 map... I assumed that was knock, so I stopped running the map. Maybe I was wrong.
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Old 01-15-2006, 11:02 AM   #17
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Running no EM with TXS DP and had ticking until I adjusted WG 3.5-4 turns. I still have ticking but it is less obvious. Have heard of people going 6 turns due to factory dial in error. Anyhow, with a my bellmouth DP I will always have the infamous Tick.

Good luck
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Old 01-15-2006, 12:05 PM   #18
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I wouldn't go around guessing that whether you have detonation or not. Since you have the AP, if you can get a hold of a laptop, you can download the free tari logger (ECUexplorer) and log your car (using your AP cable). Especially important is the IAM (ignition advance multiplier) and also your knock correction values under load. Other items you should log - rpm, boost, a/f learning, a/f correction, TPS, Front O2 sensor.

http://www.tari.co.za/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl
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