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Old 01-24-2008, 12:17 AM   #1176
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Originally Posted by hella_sti View Post
I've used pure syncromesh in my honda and so does 90% of the rest of the honda community. Hell, honda one of the most respected automakers puts regular dyno oil in their trannys and it recommends it in their owners manuals, so the redline and other synthetic oils can't adversely affect our trannys as much as you think. Also, I talked to a honda mechanic that has been working on hondas for 10+ years and he said they put the stuff in hondas (syncromesh) all the time if they grind and the cust doesn't want a rebuild. Also, a toyota tech that I know with 20+ years experience and has his own personal shop said that the syncromesh is THE best additive and/or tranny fuild he has used and seen results with. 2 quarts of light wt and syncromesh on top of the recomended 75w-90 isn't gonna harn anything. Oil is oil and this is alot better. I've been using it for over a year and it works great in -30 all the way up to 110, so I've been to the extremes and know what it can do. I drained it a while ago and it looked fine.
Read before you speak... You are reffering to transmissions that do NOT share their fluid with hypoid diffs where power is transferred at a 90 degree angle... this type of gearing produces MUCH higher loads in between gear teeth. You can use ATF, motor oil, synchromesh and a bunch of other lighter oils in standard 2wd transmissions without adverse effects... The subaru is different.

Why do you think people like scotty have gone through so much trouble trying different "cocktails" trying to preserve some formulation with heavier gear oils that contain the required high pressure modifiers?
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Old 01-24-2008, 10:39 AM   #1177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hella_sti View Post
I've used pure syncromesh in my honda and so does 90% of the rest of the honda community. Hell, honda one of the most respected automakers puts regular dyno oil in their trannys and it recommends it in their owners manuals, so the redline and other synthetic oils can't adversely affect our trannys as much as you think. Also, I talked to a honda mechanic that has been working on hondas for 10+ years and he said they put the stuff in hondas (syncromesh) all the time if they grind and the cust doesn't want a rebuild. Also, a toyota tech that I know with 20+ years experience and has his own personal shop said that the syncromesh is THE best additive and/or tranny fuild he has used and seen results with. 2 quarts of light wt and syncromesh on top of the recomended 75w-90 isn't gonna harn anything. Oil is oil and this is alot better. I've been using it for over a year and it works great in -30 all the way up to 110, so I've been to the extremes and know what it can do. I drained it a while ago and it looked fine.
You're in the wrong forum buddy, this is a Subaru forum, not Honda/Toyota. You are comparing apples to oranges.
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Old 01-24-2008, 05:14 PM   #1178
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Originally Posted by hella_sti View Post
I've used pure syncromesh in my honda and so does 90% of the rest of the honda community. Hell, honda one of the most respected automakers puts regular dyno oil in their trannys and it recommends it in their owners manuals, so the redline and other synthetic oils can't adversely affect our trannys as much as you think. Also, I talked to a honda mechanic that has been working on hondas for 10+ years and he said they put the stuff in hondas (syncromesh) all the time if they grind and the cust doesn't want a rebuild. Also, a toyota tech that I know with 20+ years experience and has his own personal shop said that the syncromesh is THE best additive and/or tranny fuild he has used and seen results with. 2 quarts of light wt and syncromesh on top of the recomended 75w-90 isn't gonna harn anything. Oil is oil and this is alot better. I've been using it for over a year and it works great in -30 all the way up to 110, so I've been to the extremes and know what it can do. I drained it a while ago and it looked fine.
I've been a technician for 15+ years now and have worked for Toyota, Honda, and Subaru and currently own my own Subaru shop for the last 5 years.

I've done Honda's for over 10 years and only run Honda MTF or NEO oil in them including my customer's 610whp 00' Si. The difference between Honda and Subaru is Honda uses coated brass baulk rings, Subaru doesn't. This is where synromesh does it's damage.

The high sulfur content in syncromesh eats brass (simple chemistry). As the brass erodes from the friction surface of the baulk ring, the load surface becomes smaller and smaller and wears faster and faster till finally failure occurs.

bugeyeblue- Valvoline 75w90 Synthetic

-Dylan @ DS1
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Old 01-24-2008, 07:03 PM   #1179
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I've tried Neo synthetic, the cocktail and redline lightweight shockproof

The worst was the cocktail, it was cool for like 5K or so. Then it went down hill and I am glad I didn't wait to change it out.

Neo synthetic worked very well, but the synchros took a lickin'. The gears looked like new when I installed my front LSD and synchros. I have read other stories of Neo waxin' synchros.

Redline lightweight is the best by far. I won't run anything else. It seems to work very well with my helical front diff and the gears look great.

If for some reason I were to try something else it would be Amsoil Severe Gear. That is what I run in my R180 along with Amsoil slip lock.

I believe what Dylan says about the synchromesh and don't think it is a good idea to put it in our cars.

Redline in the trans and Amsoil everywhere else. I bet the Severe Gear may even do even better than the Redline, but have no reason to go and experiment with it.
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Old 01-25-2008, 02:53 PM   #1180
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I really liked it in the Honda's (NEO that is) but it didn't work as well in the Subaru boxes.

Kev- try swapping, the Amsoil does pretty well in the gear box and Redline is better for diffs

-Dylan
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Old 01-25-2008, 04:19 PM   #1181
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Originally Posted by DS1 Motorsports View Post
I really liked it in the Honda's (NEO that is) but it didn't work as well in the Subaru boxes.

Kev- try swapping, the Amsoil does pretty well in the gear box and Redline is better for diffs

-Dylan
For those of us who don't want to drop $60+ for tranny oil, is there anything cheaper that yields good results?
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Old 01-25-2008, 04:45 PM   #1182
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Umm you could try the valvoline 75w90 normal, it won't be as smooth in the cold but it should work the same in the warm.

-Dylan
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Old 01-25-2008, 07:07 PM   #1183
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Originally Posted by DS1 Motorsports View Post
Umm you could try the valvoline 75w90 normal, it won't be as smooth in the cold but it should work the same in the warm.

-Dylan
my coctail is currently around 5k miles or so... before next winter when I change her out, I will probably try the amsoil.
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Old 01-25-2008, 07:48 PM   #1184
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Originally Posted by DS1 Motorsports View Post
Umm you could try the valvoline 75w90 normal, it won't be as smooth in the cold but it should work the same in the warm.

-Dylan
That's what I've been looking for, but all I can find is the valvoline 75w90 syn.
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Old 01-25-2008, 08:29 PM   #1185
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You can do Amsoil for like $40. If that's too much or even $60 then that's just being way too cheap. I mean it's only $60 every 30K.

I think the Neo synthetic ran me $80 a gallon. Still worth every cent.
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Old 01-26-2008, 08:49 AM   #1186
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Crazykev:

Amsoil SV Gear Lube is good upto 100K & depending on different variables such as dust, how hard you car ... etc. Nevertheless, if your changing Amsoil @ 30K your throwing away perfectly good gear lube.

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Old 01-26-2008, 09:40 AM   #1187
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Originally Posted by rougeben83 View Post
The cocktail needs to be changed out every 10-12k anyway (compare that to like 30k or something with the Extra-S), the downside to mixing fluid is all of those things in the same case just makes them breakdown faster.

I had the cocktail for around 10k - I think really cold weather isn't too kind to this mix at all; near the end, the shifting was just really notchy and even my local dyno guy commented how awkward the 2-3 shift have gotten when he strapped my car down for a couple of runs. It looked like really thick chocolate milk when drained it. I just went back to the Extra S stuff about 3 months ago and haven't thought about all these different transmission mixes since.
Jeeze, I don't see how nobody (as in almost nobody) thinks this is a problem...fluid wears out in 10k miles, looks like chocolate freakin' milk when you drain it. That said, cold fluid recently driven can look like that too...

Normal gear oil should last for some time. Most factory fills are good for 60k!

I think that Scotty or one of his users should do a UOA on his gear oil, if that's possible, and find out just how much damage is occuring, until DS1 gets his pics up.
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Old 01-26-2008, 10:02 AM   #1188
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DS1 Motorsports,

First off, Im not trying to start a flame war or anything but I'm curious about something. Is this a pretty common combination of fluids that just anybody would put together on their own? Meaning, Wouldnt they have read about it here on NASIOC? If thats the case, why have none of the people that you've repaired trannies for posted back here with the end results of the cocktail. I have yet to see anyone post "OMG! Uncle Scottys cocktail destroyed my tranny!"
Again, not trying to be antagonistic, just curious.

Out of this mixture, is it the syncromesh causing the problem, or the mixture as whole? What about 50/50 castrol hypo c/ light weight shock proof combo?
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Old 01-26-2008, 10:22 AM   #1189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Button View Post
Crazykev:

Amsoil SV Gear Lube is good upto 100K & depending on different variables such as dust, how hard you car ... etc. Nevertheless, if your changing Amsoil @ 30K your throwing away perfectly good gear lube.

Regards,
~Button
Yep, and thier oil is good for 25K, but do you think I would go that long without an oil change? HELL NO! I change my oil every 5K.
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Old 01-26-2008, 01:54 PM   #1190
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You're asking valid questions

Most of my customers don't care to post and get involved with people like uncle scotty bashing them for thier statements.

This combo of fluid is something he put together, how we'll probably never know.

The combination of fluids is something Subaru says specifically not to do in the 5mt. The syncromesh is bad for the brass baulk rings. The shockproof turns to jello in the cold and separates from the other oils in the cocktail.
Hypo C is old school oil and belongs in my dad's ford 9" rear end It doesn't hold up very well to high rpm use.


-Dylan


Quote:
Originally Posted by stikboy9 View Post
DS1 Motorsports,

First off, Im not trying to start a flame war or anything but I'm curious about something. Is this a pretty common combination of fluids that just anybody would put together on their own? Meaning, Wouldnt they have read about it here on NASIOC? If thats the case, why have none of the people that you've repaired trannies for posted back here with the end results of the cocktail. I have yet to see anyone post "OMG! Uncle Scottys cocktail destroyed my tranny!"
Again, not trying to be antagonistic, just curious.

Out of this mixture, is it the syncromesh causing the problem, or the mixture as whole? What about 50/50 castrol hypo c/ light weight shock proof combo?
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Old 01-26-2008, 02:17 PM   #1191
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Crazykev:

Yes, I've followed Amsoil drain intervals w/ 3 Subaru's wo/ any problems & furthermore 2 cars lasted longer than 100K!!! Nevertheless, if Amsoil's 25K OCI were causing problems w/ peoples cars/trucks ... don't you think they would have been sued??? They have been around 1972 & started the synthetic oil revolution in cars/trucks.

Regards,
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Old 01-26-2008, 10:29 PM   #1192
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Wow, an entire page (so far) with no one replying "piss off" or "YOU'RE WRONG" I'm starting to wonder if someone's on vacation. I still would like to see pics, DS1. What you're saying makes sense about the syncromesh and brass. I never thought about it. I also remember reading in one of my aircraft powerplant manuals about how mixing oils with different bases attracts moisture. Glad I changed my fluid back to the inferior recommended stuff. Even if it would be a small amount of possible damage, I can't afford swapping transmissions or gearsets at whim like some of the ballers on this site.
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Old 01-27-2008, 10:07 AM   #1193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS1 Motorsports View Post
...The shockproof turns to jello in the cold and separates from the other oils in the cocktail...
What!? If it turns to jell, then why does it still slosh in the bottle and flow well at 20F? Why am I able to shift into 2nd at 10F with the cocktail, when I had to carefully double-clutch with the stock fluid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DS1 Motorsports
...Hypo C is old school oil and belongs in my dad's ford 9" rear end It doesn't hold up very well to high rpm use.
The "old school" Hypoy C meets or exceeds GL-5. Now you're saying Subaru's recommendation isn't good enough? Or are you just trying to make an argument for synthetic?

You may have a point with synchromesh incompatibility with brass, but here it sounds like your just making stuff up.
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Old 01-27-2008, 10:42 AM   #1194
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Originally Posted by 2slofouru View Post
Wow, an entire page (so far) with no one replying "piss off" or "YOU'RE WRONG" I'm starting to wonder if someone's on vacation. I still would like to see pics, DS1. What you're saying makes sense about the syncromesh and brass. I never thought about it. I also remember reading in one of my aircraft powerplant manuals about how mixing oils with different bases attracts moisture. Glad I changed my fluid back to the inferior recommended stuff. Even if it would be a small amount of possible damage, I can't afford swapping transmissions or gearsets at whim like some of the ballers on this site.
Looks like you spoke to soon
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Old 01-27-2008, 10:53 AM   #1195
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Sorry, didn't mean to sound like a troll, but I saw some information that didn't jive with my experience. One of my pet peeves is mis-information.

This is far from "you're wrong", "doood!", or "piss off"
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Old 01-27-2008, 12:09 PM   #1196
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stanton- No offense taken

The Hypoid-C has a different additive package, it will meet GL-5, but the friction modifiers in it are different than what Subaru uses. As for the Redline shockproof, I've literally had to scoop it out (like pudding) of a 6mt case when it was cold. The trans had been transported in the back of at truck to me the outside temp was about 3deg. F. and even in the time it took me to disassemble the case it was still like pudding.

-Dylan
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Old 01-27-2008, 12:14 PM   #1197
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DS1 Motorsports:

Do you have any experiences w/ Amsoil gear lube ... good/bad?

Regards,
~Button
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Old 01-27-2008, 02:20 PM   #1198
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Originally Posted by DS1 Motorsports View Post
stanton- No offense taken

The Hypoid-C has a different additive package, it will meet GL-5, but the friction modifiers in it are different than what Subaru uses. As for the Redline shockproof, I've literally had to scoop it out (like pudding) of a 6mt case when it was cold. The trans had been transported in the back of at truck to me the outside temp was about 3deg. F. and even in the time it took me to disassemble the case it was still like pudding.

-Dylan
I can vouch for the gelling - when I changed mine I had little (1/2 - 1") chunks floating in the fluid...it even clogged my funnel when I was transferring it to the storage container (what a mess )...

I still think its from the very cold temps the Midwest sees (i.e. below freezing for several days straight)...if youre in Cali or even in the Mid-East coast, you may not see this happening.

Last edited by rougeben83; 01-27-2008 at 02:26 PM.
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Old 01-28-2008, 12:07 PM   #1199
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Originally Posted by DS1 Motorsports View Post
You're asking valid questions

Most of my customers don't care to post and get involved with people like uncle scotty bashing them for thier statements.

This combo of fluid is something he put together, how we'll probably never know.

The combination of fluids is something Subaru says specifically not to do in the 5mt. The syncromesh is bad for the brass baulk rings. The shockproof turns to jello in the cold and separates from the other oils in the cocktail.
Hypo C is old school oil and belongs in my dad's ford 9" rear end It doesn't hold up very well to high rpm use.


-Dylan
I can't imagine that synchromesh is any worse for synchros than any gear lube intended for use with a hypoid diff. All gears oils have a high sulfur content, that's why they stink (literally).

Otherwise, I agree with what you've been saying.

As for mixing, I can't run anything in my trans that degrades in ~10-15k miles sorry... You guys are mentioning that stock oils are generally good for 30-60k, which is true. But lets be realistic... Most manual cars on the road have never gotten the gear oil changed. My first job at autozone some years ago taught me that the average car owner doesn't know what gear oil even is. And yet manual transmissions and hypoid diffs keep surviving on the original normal gear oil for the life of the car.

I'm not saying I'd do it... but with most cars you can drive the car on original gear oil for well over 100k miles, happens all the time. On this thread, you'd swear that the wheels will shoot off at rocket speed and the gears will turn into a fine metal paste if you don't change gear oil at the required interval. If the oil's performance significantly degrades in under 15k miles, something is wrong.

I know mixing in the qt. of synchromesh is probably not great for the tranny, but so far I've crossed 15k miles on valvolene 75w90 and 1 qt. synchromesh with no noticable loss of oil/shift performance. That doesn't mean that everything is hunky-dory, but at least it's doesn't appear to be a huge problem. If this mix doesn't last 30k, then I will probably go back to the factory reccommended fluid and live with it.
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Old 01-28-2008, 01:07 PM   #1200
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We just put this Amsoil Cocktail in to a 2.5RS with 78K miles, with good results so far.

Diff-- 0.75qt Amsoil Severe Gear 75w-110 GL-5
Tranny -- 1.25qt Amsoil Severe Gear 75w-110 GL-5
2.5qt Amsoil Manual Transmission Gear 75w-90 GL-4

Hoping that the extra protection of the Severe Gear GL-5 (which has been shown in tests to be the very least corrosive of a batch of other GL-5 gear oils) and the shiftability of the MTG GL-4 will still make everything happy in that transmission. This is for a mostly-stock autocross car, but it will see very hard ProSolo launches with race tires.

FWIW, I had been running Motul Gear300 in my tranny and diff in the L (H-Stock autocross car), but after 50K miles in 12 months (it's been changed a few times) it's starting to scratch the gears in shifting, and the rear diff is a little noisy. We'll do the same setup above in this car, or do a full Severe Gear as an experiment in shift quality.
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