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Old 01-30-2008, 12:25 AM   #1226
skydes
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Dylan, so you recommend 75w90NS in the 5mt? Are there any other oils that you recommend for the Subie 5MT?
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Old 01-30-2008, 12:32 AM   #1227
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I wonder if there are certain conditions where the cocktail is great, and others where it is not...hence the varied experience with it (or at least PARTS of it). For example, it seems that shockproof turns into thick, scoopable goop in cold weather. Maybe only using it in warm weather would prevent this. I'll explain my theory:

When the cocktail gets really cold, it seems that the ingredients tend to seperate-like homemade chicken soup in the fridge. At the least, the shockproof turns into a scoopable goop. In normal form, perhaps the shockproof is able to protect the trans' internals from the corrosive effects of the synchromesh. However, when the shockproof coagulates in cold weather, it seperates from the mix and no longer protects against the effects of the synchromesh.
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Old 01-30-2008, 05:59 AM   #1228
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I'll say my personal experience with the cocktail (in between 3 and 4k miles) has been great. My 2.5i had a lot of chatter coming from the transmission before hand, and after had quieted down significantly. Shifting was smooth before hand so I can't say it dramatically helped anything in that area, but it definitely didn't hurt. I do think that I'll use straight 75W-90 the next time I change fluid just to see what happens.
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Old 01-30-2008, 09:28 AM   #1229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS1 Motorsports View Post
strohausii- The failures I've seen is due to the cocktail aka excessive wear due to corrosion.

iamcgr- it's very hard to show the wear in pictures, I've described it very well in previous posts and also explained the difficulty in photographing it.

-Dylan
Wear to what? Corrosion to the sychros? Bearings? Please be specfic since you are the first "Professional" I have seen here to make this statement.

...How do you quantify your statement, if infact you can't prove nor have measured it? I know you've got some experience here, but what are you doing?
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Old 01-30-2008, 09:43 AM   #1230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strohausii View Post
Wear to what? Corrosion to the sychros? Bearings? Please be specfic since you are the first "Professional" I have seen here to make this statement.

...How do you quantify your statement, if infact you can't prove nor have measured it? I know you've got some experience here, but what are you doing?
Don't forget that his evidence is from looking at transmissions that are being rebuilt with known wear and shifting issues from the sound of things. I wouldn't be surprised if my synchros look like crap too - they sure shifted like crap when I got the car. But the cocktail has given me 10s of thousands of miles since then without having to rebuild it, and it shows no signs of degrading performance. I'm well aware that the cocktail didn't go in an replace my bearings when I poured it in, so I'm sure they still don't look pretty.

If you spend all your day looking at broken transmissions, it's not exactly an unbiased barometer of how different fluids are performing. You could just as easily argue that every transmission that is broken up with dino fluids must be the fault of the dino fluid. You have to figure that a lot of the transmissions people are bringing him were broken up and they tried the cocktail to see if it would help to no avail.
-N
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Old 01-30-2008, 10:06 AM   #1231
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So you are familiar with DS1 Neil?

I have a healthy distrust of anything on the internet. For all I know he's just some guy looking to get some attention by making blanket statements and increase sales.
I know he's dead on with the honda tranny stuff, and jhargis has proven himself to be a great source of information from his hands on experience.

I do remember other "Experts (Cobb)" recommending MT-1 as "best of both worlds" fill back in 2002.
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Old 01-30-2008, 10:49 AM   #1232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strohausii View Post
So you are familiar with DS1 Neil?

I have a healthy distrust of anything on the internet. For all I know he's just some guy looking to get some attention by making blanket statements and increase sales.
I know he's dead on with the honda tranny stuff, and jhargis has proven himself to be a great source of information from his hands on experience.

I do remember other "Experts (Cobb)" recommending MT-1 as "best of both worlds" fill back in 2002.
No, I only know him from his posts here. But I've read through this whole thread before and I'm among the success stories for the cocktail. As for his Honda experience, it's not worth much here. And his exaggerations about taking apart Cocktail-ruined transmissions every day is just BS. As far as I can tell, he's just blowing smoke and trying to drum up business or something. As for jhargis, while he responded to my comment about trying to get back on-topic, I wasn't actually directing it to him. I have thought his input was actually valuable and related.

And I've seen posts like DS1's in here before with uncorroborated claims that don't really add up in the end. For example, his argument that sulfur is bad for our transmissions seems to push people toward sticking with a GL-5 oil as recommended by Subaru. But GL-5 does include sulfur and Subaru wouldn't recommend a GL-5 if that was expected to be a significant problem. Theoretically, the same sulfur/brass corrosion problems would be apparent with any GL-5 oil, including the Subaru Extra-S.

Other than that, the claims about scooping up the shockproof are just stupid. Once the tranny is spinning, I'm sure it all stays mixed up very easily. If it was really so thick at the bottom as they say, then nothing would flow out of the drain plug when you switch it. Or at least, nothing but shockproof at first and slowly. But I assure you when I've drained it, I get a relatively homogenous color of fluid draining. If it's a little thicker or separated when the tranny isn't moving, that really doesn't matter.

-N
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Old 01-30-2008, 10:55 AM   #1233
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Well until a chemical engineer tells me that the corrosives in the fluid will not harm my tranny parts at all i will not plan on using scotty's cocktail. I remember though using straight gm sychromesh in my wrx back in the day, In my mind it only supresses the problem but not totally get rid of it. It was only a matter of months b4 under normal driving conditions my 3rd gear's had some teeth separate from it and chewed up my tranny, it didn't grenade but the teeth just separated from the gear, don't ask me how but it did. I know it was straight synchromesh but if any the mix just diludes it so possibly slows the process down but like fellow said b4 it will separate in cold conditions. and all it takes is one gear to mess up. Anyways after the last rebuild i put regular tranny fluid in the car from subaru. It's all about the approach of how you start driving the car. If the tranny is already having issues the fluid isn't going to reverse the affect it'll only slow it down, but i'd just use that as excuse to buy time to prepare for the problem to come.
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Old 01-30-2008, 12:15 PM   #1234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strohausii View Post
So you are familiar with DS1 Neil?

I have a healthy distrust of anything on the internet. For all I know he's just some guy looking to get some attention by making blanket statements and increase sales.
I know he's dead on with the honda tranny stuff, and jhargis has proven himself to be a great source of information from his hands on experience.

I do remember other "Experts (Cobb)" recommending MT-1 as "best of both worlds" fill back in 2002.
You are wise to have that healthy distrust.

The problem with the "corrosion" statement is that all high pressure gear lubes adequate for use with a hypoid rings and pinions have sulfur in them (as neilschelly mentioned), which is why they have a very pungent odor relative to say, motor oil. Even GL-5 oils have this, they just have some other additives that help to minimize the effects of sulfur on synchros to make them a little better suited for use in synchronized manual transmissions, as opposed to GL-4 or lower ratings.

Here's where this post is leading: If you have experience with honda transmissions then, you are comparing a transmission that uses gear lube (subaru) to a transmission that uses motor oil as a lube... Even using GL-5 rated gear lubes, the toll on synchros will be greater than what you see in a gearbox that uses much less corrosive motor oil. The real test would be something like this: pull 2 working transmissions at 100,000 miles each, one that's used 75w90 dino from the start and one with the cocktail and then compare. That would raise some eyebrows. Otherwise, even to a good, experienced, and honest mechanic, the test results will still be somewhat subjective.

I appreciate the kind words, and I really don't want anybody to think I am talking down on the cocktail. I tried it and it didn't meet my personal preferences, yet many others have been amazed by it and have used for many many miles without issue. It all comes down to the individual car and driver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deuce189 View Post
Well until a chemical engineer tells me that the corrosives in the fluid will not harm my tranny parts at all i will not plan on using scotty's cocktail. I remember though using straight gm sychromesh in my wrx back in the day, In my mind it only supresses the problem but not totally get rid of it. It was only a matter of months b4 under normal driving conditions my 3rd gear's had some teeth separate from it and chewed up my tranny, it didn't grenade but the teeth just separated from the gear, don't ask me how but it did. I know it was straight synchromesh but if any the mix just diludes it so possibly slows the process down but like fellow said b4 it will separate in cold conditions. and all it takes is one gear to mess up. Anyways after the last rebuild i put regular tranny fluid in the car from subaru. It's all about the approach of how you start driving the car. If the tranny is already having issues the fluid isn't going to reverse the affect it'll only slow it down, but i'd just use that as excuse to buy time to prepare for the problem to come.
Synchromesh, or any other cocktail ingrediant shouldn't adversely affect wear on standard helical cut gear layout, such as 1st-5th and reverse... Like I said, other transmissions that have only this layout (honda FWD, toyota FWD/RWD, etc.) use even thinner oils like motor 10w30 motor oil or even automatic transmission fluid (yes, ATF in a manual). Where you might see issues are with added synchro wear, or mainly, wear on the gear teeth of your front ring and pinion and corresponding bearings. You have to watch out with gears that transfer power at a 90 degree angle, that's where pressures are much higher than your run-of-the-mill basic inline gear layout. The Gl-5 75w90 recommendation is to accomodate the front diff's needs, even at the cost of shifting performance. You also have a 6mt with a more adequate synchros and more space to fit them, so if you don't have any real problems with how your gearbox operates, I wouldn't touch anything other than straight gl-5 75w90.

Last edited by jhargis; 01-30-2008 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:48 PM   #1235
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jhargis-
I do spend most of my days with my hands stuck in broken 5mt's. The way I gauge the different effects fluids on transmissions is by noting the different wear characteristics on the individual parts and then comparing them to the other boxes I see running the same fluids. I see the same breakdown of the baulk rings in almost every trans I see running the cocktail. It's not a normal wear issue like I see in boxes running normal 75w90 oils. Some wear on these rings is normal and yes the higher the mileage the more wear occurs. The issue in the transmissions I see running the cocktail is the type of wear, it's not the normal even wear on the cones and rings. The wear in the cocktail transmissions always share a tapered wear towards the center of the cone and when I check the cone and baulk ring for straightness they show a taper on the lower and upper sections.

A few Facts for this discussion:

The ingredients of GM Syncromesh:
1) "Severely solvent refined, solvent de-waxed, heavy parafinnic petroleum distillates"
Normal English: This is the "semi-synthetic" base oil. It is likely a GIII hydrocracked mineral oil. This is a better base oil than Honda's MTF, That does not mean it is not a better tranny lube, however.

2) "Benzene, C10-16 alkyl derivatives"
Normal English: Known as Benzenesulfonic acid, It is a surfactant, here used I would imagine to keep parts clean; it may also act as a carrier for the other ingredients.

3) "Methacrylic acid, copolymer of 'methyl' and 'lauryl' esters"
Normal English: Here is used as an ester oil. This is the synthetic part of the formulation, and is chemically representative of esters in general; highest resistance to heat degeneration, high detergency.

4) "Sulfonic acids, petroleum, magnesium salts"
Normal English: These are the friction modifiers - they may also play a part in friction reduction. This is the major issue

5) "Hydrotreated heavy parafinnic petroleum disitillates"
Normal English: Similar to #1, but not as purified - less 'severe'; could be somewhere between a GII and GIII.

6) "Zinc alkyl dithiophosphate"
Normal English: The is the famous ZDP, these compounds represent the best anti-wear technology yet developed.

The differences between GL-4 and GL-5 from the API.

3.2 API GL-4
The designation API GL-4 denotes lubricants intended for
axles with spiral bevel gears operating under moderate to severe
conditions of speed and load or axles with hypoid (see
note)gears operating under moderate speeds and loads.
These oils may be used in selected manual transmission and
transaxle applications where MT-1 lubricants are unsuitable.

3.3 API GL-5
The designation API GL-5 denotes lubricants intended for
gears, particularly hypoid gears, in axles operating
under various combinations of high-speed/shock load and
low-speed/high-torque conditions.

The reason I am in here telling people what I see is because it cost my customers more money to rebuild their transmissions because of the cocktail. In doing this I actually lose parts sales.

-Dylan @ DS1
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Old 01-30-2008, 06:21 PM   #1236
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Yeah Dylan, break it down brother!
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Old 01-31-2008, 01:33 AM   #1237
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I just switched to straight Valvoline 75w90 (non-synthetic) this morning. So far so good.
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Old 01-31-2008, 11:52 AM   #1238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolster View Post
I just switched to straight Valvoline 75w90 (non-synthetic) this morning. So far so good.
Where are you finding the Valvoline dino 75w90? All I can find is syn stuff.
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Old 01-31-2008, 02:30 PM   #1239
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^^ sometimes you can find it at Murray's, Napa should be able to order it.
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Old 01-31-2008, 02:45 PM   #1240
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Would the syn or dino be better?
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Old 01-31-2008, 03:51 PM   #1241
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Just so you guys know, DS1 Motorsports is a well known Subaru transmission shop in Chicago. From everything I have read on him, Dylan knows what he is talking about.
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Old 01-31-2008, 07:29 PM   #1242
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We've got Autozone, pep boys, advance auto. I'd rather not order anything.

Should I snag the dino or syn?
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Old 01-31-2008, 07:51 PM   #1243
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I prefer the syn here in the cold but the dino should do fine in FL (lucky sob's )

-Dylan
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Old 01-31-2008, 11:56 PM   #1244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superorb View Post
Where are you finding the Valvoline dino 75w90? All I can find is syn stuff.
All I can find at multiple Checker's and Autozone stores is the dino stuff. I haven't checked at Napa, but the deed's done and I'll wait until the next change for the Synthetic.
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Old 02-01-2008, 12:35 AM   #1245
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So what is the best oil to put in? Valvoline 75w90. or the new subaru extra-s?
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Old 02-01-2008, 10:26 AM   #1246
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Check for local auto parts stores. That's the only place I can find the less frequently used products like Amsoil. I just found out that a local chain around me has both dino and synth Valv75w90.
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Old 02-01-2008, 10:44 AM   #1247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS1 Motorsports View Post
jhargis-
I do spend most of my days with my hands stuck in broken 5mt's...
Definitely not questioning your experience or knowledge... you do seem to know what you're talking about.

It seems to me, based solely on my persepctive and intermediate knowledge, that it must be something other than the synchromesh that is damaging the synchros though, perhaps even the mix as a whole is more damaging than any one ingrediant. Here's what I'm looking at:

-In my gearbox, the cocktail made my synchros quite audible... I could clearly hear them "wind" up (for lack of a better description). That can't be a good thing, regardless of what Scotty says. The only time I've ever heard a synchro that loud was in a co-workers 1980something (bone stock, not rice) civic crx with like eleventy billion miles on it and a sluggish and tired 3rd gear synchro. I went back to 1qt. synchromesh and the rest 75w90 dino, and boom, no more synchro noise. I wonder if that increased synchro noise is a result of this unusual type of wear your are seeing?

Again, even though I have a small portion of synchromesh in my gearbox now, I get no really noticable synchro noise and the shifting is fine. Plus I still can't see how a product designed specifically for better synchro operation and widely used in GM OEM applications could be particularly damaging to synchros. While I am no chemical engineer and can't rule it out, I'm thinking the synchro damage you speak of must be caused by something else in the mix. Again, I could be wrong.

Last edited by jhargis; 02-01-2008 at 09:48 PM.
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Old 02-01-2008, 12:13 PM   #1248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan
I prefer the syn here in the cold but the dino should do fine in FL (lucky sob's )

-Dylan
It was 20 degrees here last wek. Should I try the syn or should dino be ok? I'm using some store brand "Coastal" gl-5 75w90 right now, and it's OK, better than the worn out cocktail that was in there.
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Old 02-01-2008, 01:51 PM   #1249
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jhargis- I think you are on to something with the mix is more damaging than anyone of it's components individually. The Syncromesh is designed for better synchronization in transmissions using coated baulk rings (Subaru does not coat theirs) and ATF based fluids.

Superorb- You may want to use the synthetic if temps are that cold.

-Dylan
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Old 02-01-2008, 06:12 PM   #1250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS1 Motorsports View Post
jhargis- I think you are on to something with the mix is more damaging than anyone of it's components individually. The Syncromesh is designed for better synchronization in transmissions using coated baulk rings (Subaru does not coat theirs) and ATF based fluids.

Superorb- You may want to use the synthetic if temps are that cold.

-Dylan
Ok. Is the valv syn any better or worse than any of the Amsoil SG or Motul fluids?
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