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Old 02-08-2008, 12:51 AM   #1276
ringe
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Is the recipe in the first post still the gold standard? If so, the Hypoy C is easily a poor choice; according to this paper Amsoil sponsored gear oil study the Hypoy C is NOT MT-1 certified, meaning that it is not intended for manual transmissions; it has a relatively high pour-point of -15*F; and has less than great EP performance...
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Old 02-08-2008, 04:22 PM   #1277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhargis View Post
Definitely not questioning your experience or knowledge... you do seem to know what you're talking about.

It seems to me, based solely on my persepctive and intermediate knowledge, that it must be something other than the synchromesh that is damaging the synchros though, perhaps even the mix as a whole is more damaging than any one ingrediant. Here's what I'm looking at:

-In my gearbox, the cocktail made my synchros quite audible... I could clearly hear them "wind" up (for lack of a better description). That can't be a good thing, regardless of what Scotty says. The only time I've ever heard a synchro that loud was in a co-workers 1980something (bone stock, not rice) civic crx with like eleventy billion miles on it and a sluggish and tired 3rd gear synchro. I went back to 1qt. synchromesh and the rest 75w90 dino, and boom, no more synchro noise. I wonder if that increased synchro noise is a result of this unusual type of wear your are seeing?

Again, even though I have a small portion of synchromesh in my gearbox now, I get no really noticable synchro noise and the shifting is fine. Plus I still can't see how a product designed specifically for better synchro operation and widely used in GM OEM applications could be particularly damaging to synchros. While I am no chemical engineer and can't rule it out, I'm thinking the synchro damage you speak of must be caused by something else in the mix. Again, I could be wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DS1 Motorsports View Post
jhargis- I think you are on to something with the mix is more damaging than anyone of it's components individually. The Syncromesh is designed for better synchronization in transmissions using coated baulk rings (Subaru does not coat theirs) and ATF based fluids.

Superorb- You may want to use the synthetic if temps are that cold.

-Dylan


Both of you two are on to the right track. I do however find it interesting that DS1 has not yet been criticized by "Uncle Scotty", but may be that is because DS1 can back up the claims. My "assumption" is (assumption because I don't have the multiple gear boxes to look at as DS1 or a testing facility for the oil) that the problem is in the use of the redline shockproof. Taken from the redline site at http://www.redlineoil.com/products_g...bCategoryID=16

Redline states that "A unique lubricant containing a suspension of solid microscopic particles as an extreme pressure agent--unique solid dispersion which cushions gear teeth to help prevent tooth breakage and allows the use of lower viscosities."

I suspect that the sludge that DS1 is seeing built up on the inside of the trannys that had the "cocktail" in them would be this suspension of particals settling. Suspensions settle, A solution does not. I am also inclined to believe that it would be the particals responsible for the audible noise from the synchros that "jhargis" mentions is likely due to the addition of these particals now being between the synchros. To me this seems like putting saw dust in your tranny (saw dust was an old trick used to quiet trannys and rearends with bad gears before a vehicle was sold) and would also make sense as to why redline says "however, should not be used with pumps, filters, and with small lines" as it would clog them. Once again a suspension not a solution. According to redline the particals are to cushion the gears to prevent gear to gear contact, reducing friction. Now if the particals are large enough to cushion gear teeth in that way, clog filters and small lines; putting these particals between the cones and bulk rings of the synchros would have a similar effect as the saw dust between them giving the smoother engagement claimed to be felt by people using the "cocktail". You are essentially replacing the worn off material of the synchros with the particals to regain the needed friction to make the synchros do their job. I am lead to believe this is the case as people and "Uncle Scotty" him self claims that the cocktail looses some affect after 16k-20k miles. The particals would be getting broken up in the gears and other moving parts as if they are in a rock tumbler, thus becoming smaller and less affective. Then you combine the Pennzoil Synchromesh and its high sulfur content to further aid in the destruction of the synchros.

Not to mention that the combining of different manufacturers can leave you with a fluid that does not fight corrosion but enables it, mixing doesn't always get you the best of both worlds. As for mixing the additives packages of the 3 ingredients of the "cocktail", that is some thing we may never truly know the result of as most of that info is proprietary to each manufacture so you would never know what the chemical result would be.

For one I would like to see some test data on this cocktail. I would like to see test data from before use and after use for:

Subaru OEM fluid
The ingredients in the cocktail
Redline lightweight shockproof
Pennzoil Synchromesh
Castrol HypoyC 80w-90
AND
"uncle Scotty's cocktail" as a whole in mix form, both before and after.

I think some Used Oil Analysis (UOA) may help to give some info as to whether this cocktail should be even considered an option. Seeing UOAs for the virgin oils would give you a base line to compare to. By looking at the levels of wear metals in the UOAs you could determine if it is beneficial or not. However this is also where on of the major problems lies. You would have to have identical trannys under identical usage conditions, it would almost have to be done on test stands with simulated loads and conditions controlled by some thing other then a human, to eliminate human error. Simply having everyone do a UOA on their oil leaves to many uncontrolled items in the equation, IE: preexisting age and condition of the tranny, driving styles, length between uses (times where the fluid is stagnant allowing it to settle/separate).

In any event if you use this "cocktail" while under warranty and need to file a claim for a transmission related repair you risk having it denied. SOA has put (at least since '06) a warning in the owners manual stating "under the "Manual Transmission Oil" in the "Recommended grade and viscosity" section

"Each oil manufacture has its own base oils and additives. Never use different brands together."

I would put a "USE AT YOUR OWN RISK" warning at the beginning of this thread.
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Old 02-08-2008, 04:38 PM   #1278
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I just wanted to thank Uncle Scotty, assuming he still reads this thread, for putting the time and effort into the cocktail. I'm glad to be able to shift and I owe it to him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flstffxe View Post
Both of you two are on to the right track. I do however find it interesting that DS1 has not yet been criticized by "Uncle Scotty", but may be that is because DS1 can back up the claims.
DS1 hasn't proven anything - he's only repeated the same general wisdom about not mixing brands and made theories to inflate his own status here. The proof is in the results and far more people have had resounding success with the cocktail than shattered failures, so much so that I haven't heard of any of the failures.

I'm unsubscribing now because the anti-cocktail comments like this just piss me off and everyone new coming to this thread only checks the last page or two and jumps in on the hating action. I'm sure I won't be missed.
-N

Last edited by neilschelly; 02-08-2008 at 04:38 PM. Reason: rearranging for clarity.
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Old 02-08-2008, 05:05 PM   #1279
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My sentiments too. Though I'll stay subscribed in case someone comes up with definitive proof/examples/data of failure, or a better solution. I'm not saying Dylan is wrong, I'm just floored that not one of his customers haven't come forward with "da Cocktail ruined my transmission, man!". I find it hard to believe that someone used the cocktail (where'd they get the formula?), had significant problems (enough for a rebuild), and didn't report back.

flstffxe - your post would have been more meaningful if you left all the speculation out. You're explaining phenomenon with hypothesis. Translation: you made a lot of assumptions and professed them as answers when you don't really know. You stated you'd like to see studies done. I agree. We need facts here, not speculation.
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Old 02-08-2008, 05:24 PM   #1280
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I'm intending to do a VOA of the mixture based on the common formula. Give me time though.

As for a UOA, no way in hell would I put this crap in my transmission, so coun't me out on that one
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Old 02-08-2008, 06:22 PM   #1281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanton View Post
flstffxe - your post would have been more meaningful if you left all the speculation out. You're explaining phenomenon with hypothesis. Translation: you made a lot of assumptions and professed them as answers when you don't really know. You stated you'd like to see studies done. I agree. We need facts here, not speculation.

As I stated "my assumption", I professed nothing as an answer. There are several parts to an experiment(which is what this is, all be it by butt dyno), No one has done any controlled testing of this cocktail.


The question: Is the cocktail causing damage to the tranny?
DS1 says yes, jhargis has noisy synchros while running the cocktail...

The hypothesis/speculation(a guess): my assumption that the shockproof is to blame and why I think that.

The independent variable(what we can change): fluids that we can use

The dependent variable(what we can not change and what is used to measure the results): Wear to the synchros

The conclusion(derived from testing and comparing data): Increased wear, decreased wear, no change.....


What I am saying is this needs testing, comparison data to either prove or disprove my hypothesis. Testing I doubt any of us here have the resources for. The cocktail has a reputation for a hale mary for Subarus 5mt, that reputation may be a false one as we don't know what all the affects it has are. What are the long term affects? Do the fluids have an adverse reaction to each other? Do a combination of 2 of the fluids react to the 3rd? Do the fluids separate when stagnant? Does this combination facilitate corrosion?........ What we do know is the owners manual says this is a no no, if you are under warranty you may want to take that into consideration.


One thing that some may argue, is that the proof is in this thread by the lack of failures. I disagree. Dentists used lead and mercury fillings for years too and every one thought that there was no negatives. Now we use silver and other amalgams, because we know now that the lead and mercury fillings are poisonous though clinical studies and testing. So because many people have used the cocktail with no perceived or known negatives does not make it safe.

Last edited by flstffxe; 02-09-2008 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 02-08-2008, 09:21 PM   #1282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flstffxe View Post
One thing that some may argue, is that the proof is in this thread by the lack of failures. I disagree. Dentists used lead and mercury fillings for years too and every one thought that there was no negatives. Now we use silver and other amalgams, because we know now that the lead and mercury fillings are poisonous though clinical studies and testing. So because many people have used the cocktail with no perceived or known negatives does not make it safe.
Darn good response sir!
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Old 02-09-2008, 12:56 AM   #1283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Nastoff View Post
I think that you mean Redline MT-90. I ran MT-90 for about 10,000 miles and I perceived a great improvement over the Factory lube that I dumped at 1,000 miles from new. I am now running 1 qt. Synchromesh, 1 qt. Redline LW Shockproof and the rest of the fill up is with Redline MT-90. Amazing difference. Shifting is effortless and very smooth. I'm staying with it. Oh, I chose to stay with Redline products in the mix for two reasons. First is my past experience with their product line and secondly I felt that minimizing the different ingredients would be a safer route.
gonna try this myself. though i've known a good chunk of suby guys that have been using the cocktail for YEARS with no ill effect. i'm just more comfortable with sticking with the same mfr to lessen/destroy any chance of fluid seperation
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Old 02-09-2008, 01:32 PM   #1284
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Just because they're from the same manufacturer doesn't mean the fluids are made of the same base, or compatible.
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Old 02-09-2008, 01:43 PM   #1285
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^^ usually that is a given as most manufacturers use different base stocks when they formulate their oils, it's what makes different brands have different qualities.

-Dylan
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Old 02-09-2008, 02:19 PM   #1286
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My knowledge on this subject does not equal that of a professional in the field of oil analysis. I have no degree in chemistry. I have seen no testing of the cocktail against any other oil under controlled lab conditions. Therefore, I cannot say one way or another if the cocktail is harmful. I do my best to research the subject, and use my humble knowledge of transmissions/oil to guide my decisions. I have been a mechanic professionally, and I know that loud synchros often = bad synchros in the world of normal factory-built gearboxes using factory recommended oil. I did not notice any vastly improved shifting performance and concluded that this is not the mix for me.

My knowledge of statistical analysis under manufacturing conditions (in regards to product quality) is, however, at a professional level. My college education is specific to this subject and I do it for a living, as I am a Quality Manager. What I will say is that there are many variables that you have to look at with this type of subject before you draw any kind of conclusion. Here are some major items that can skew what we observe:

1) Conditions of use: Cocktail users often go to the cocktail because the transmission is not operating correctly, so it's not a huge suprize when the thing finally gives out.
2) Demographic: People who are willing to mix gear oils together, or even do a gear oil change by themselves for that matter, would be more likely to have modified cars. This demographic is also more likely to drive competitievly (drag race, auto-x, etc.) with their cars. Again, not as big of a surprize when the gearbox breaks on them. Also, more of these gearboxes on higher powered WRXs will fall to catastrophic gear failure before any ill effects of the cocktail would be observed.
3) Baseline: Over all longevity of these transmissions is somewhat compromised by nature. High power + AWD + sub-par design parameters cause them to be less relaible than a gearbox in the average 2WD lower powered car. The transmission may not always last long enough for added wear of the cocktail to be realized.
4) Load cycling: What percentage of cocktail users spend a majority of their time cruising (highway driving). What percentage sees mostly stop and go traffic. What percentage tends to stick to surface streets.

Any one of the above items could cause people to not make a big deal of added wear or gear failure using the cocktail.

I have been saying this throughout my posts on this thread and I will continue. The cocktail may be perfectly worth it for some, and a completely terrible match for others depending on the individual car, the warranty, and the style of driving. The best description still is "Weigh the risks and benefits, results may vary, use at your own risk (including the risk of rejected future warranty claims)."

Last edited by jhargis; 02-09-2008 at 02:24 PM.
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Old 02-09-2008, 03:22 PM   #1287
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Well said jhargis. ^^^^^^


Most people never think about the items you mentioned, but they are absolutely important in this kind of a situation. Especially #1 and #2.
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Old 02-09-2008, 04:10 PM   #1288
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It was probably alread posted here, but interesting info from Red Line. From the ShockproofTM White Paper:
http://www.redlineoil.com/whitePaper/11.pdf

"-Compatible with petroleums and synthetics"

If it has a high compatibility, that would be an important factor in the cocktail.

and from the MTL White Paper:
http://www.redlineoil.com/whitePaper/13.pdf

"GEAR AND SYNCHRONIZER WEAR PROTECTION
Most manufacturers of manual transmissions and transaxles recommend an 80W or 90W GL-4 lubricant. GL-5 gears oils which are required in hypoid differentials are not used in most synchromesh transmissions because the chemicals used to provide the extreme pressure protection can be corrosive to synchronizers, which are commonly made of brass or bronze. Typically, the use of a GL-5 lubricant in a synchromesh transmission will shorten the synchronizer life by one half. The extreme pressure requirements of spur gears and helical gears found in transmissions are not nearly as great as found in rear-wheel drive differentials. A GL-4 lubricant provides adequate protection for most manual transmissions, unless a unique design consideration requires the extra protection of a GL-5."

I understand why Subaru recommends GL-5, but should we expect any GL-5 to eat the brass? Are there different "flavors" of GL-5? What eats brass? Is it a pH thing?

Last edited by stanton; 02-09-2008 at 05:14 PM. Reason: removed bad link
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Old 02-09-2008, 05:06 PM   #1289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanton View Post
I understand why Subaru recommends GL-5, but should we expect any GL-5 to eat the brass? Are there different "flavors" of GL-5? What eats brass? Is it a pH thing?
Sulfur, or more correctly Liquid sulfur dioxide which is a commonly used in the production of both conventional dino oil and synthetic oils. Liquid sulfur dioxide corrodes iron, brass, copper, some plastic and some forms of rubber. Oddly enough it can also facilitate the bonding of rubber to some metals, such as in mating rubber to a metal ring to make a seal. It would also be the smell of gear oil we all know.
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Old 02-09-2008, 05:14 PM   #1290
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Thanks. I guess my question, does GL-5 specify a certain amount of additives containing sulfur dioxide (or the likes), or would the amount vary among brands/items?

edit: I'm not necessarily looking for the answer, or trying to take this way off topic, but it would be nice to find a GL-5 which is kind(er) to the sychros - whether it's in the cocktail or not. I could guess that the additives are all very similar in (sulfur) content, and that high-pressure protection and sulfur content go hand-in-hand.

Last edited by stanton; 02-09-2008 at 05:19 PM.
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Old 02-09-2008, 06:04 PM   #1291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanton View Post
Thanks. I guess my question, does GL-5 specify a certain amount of additives containing sulfur dioxide (or the likes), or would the amount vary among brands/items?
It varies from brand to brand. It can be used as an additive or in some cases it is just used during the refining process to extract other unwanted chemicals from the base stock. Liquid sulfur dioxide, in short is a solvent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanton View Post
edit: I'm not necessarily looking for the answer, or trying to take this way off topic, but it would be nice to find a GL-5 which is kind(er) to the sychros - whether it's in the cocktail or not. I could guess that the additives are all very similar in (sulfur) content, and that high-pressure protection and sulfur content go hand-in-hand.
As for what brands have the least % of sulfur. I couldn't tell you as that info is proprietary to each manufacture.

As far as I am concerned this is very much a part of the topic, The ops original topic was one concerned with getting into gears(synchro function) and the cocktail, other may flame me for that but..........
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Old 02-11-2008, 12:22 AM   #1292
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I live in Boston, and it is currently pretty cold. I have a high mileage (117K) 02 that i bought used and just swapped in the cocktail today. I need to top it off as it isn't 100% full, but after driving to and from work tonight, I can say that the gears shift much smoother than before. It doesn't seem to be the miracle that others have hailed it in terms of allowing them easy rolling shifts into first, but it is an improvement. I will update in another week to let you guys know how its behaving. No scientific analysis here, but just my observation, whatever its worth.
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Old 02-11-2008, 12:56 AM   #1293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flstffxe View Post
Sulfur, or more correctly Liquid sulfur dioxide which is a commonly used in the production of both conventional dino oil and synthetic oils. Liquid sulfur dioxide corrodes iron, brass, copper, some plastic and some forms of rubber. Oddly enough it can also facilitate the bonding of rubber to some metals, such as in mating rubber to a metal ring to make a seal. It would also be the smell of gear oil we all know.
It's my understanding that this mostly occurs at over 200 degrees...am I wrong about that?
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Old 02-11-2008, 12:07 PM   #1294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ringe View Post
It's my understanding that this mostly occurs at over 200 degrees...am I wrong about that?
How hot does the fluid in the tranny normally get (as a frame of reference)?
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Old 02-11-2008, 01:07 PM   #1295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ringe View Post
It's my understanding that this mostly occurs at over 200 degrees...am I wrong about that?
Actually, everywhere I've read says that it becomes corrosive closer to 250 degrees F using modern gl-5/mt-1 lubricants. Seems to me like getting gear oil to that temperature in a manual transmission would be practically impossible. Automatic transmissions with a semi decent cooler don't get that hot even with the torque converter generating tons of frictional heat, it's hard to even get engine oil up that kind of temp. *Anybody correct me if I'm wrong, this is all off the top of my head*

The important part is that any gl-5 lube used in a synchronized transmission also meets MT-1 standards for improved compatability with yellow metals.

Anybody know if all of the lubes in the cocktail are up to the MT-1 spec? If not, perhaps this could be contributing to the unusual wear pattern Dylan is seeing?

Last edited by jhargis; 02-11-2008 at 01:13 PM.
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Old 02-11-2008, 08:26 PM   #1296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhargis View Post
The important part is that any gl-5 lube used in a synchronized transmission also meets MT-1 standards for improved compatability with yellow metals.
I would agree. Though my 2003 Subaru Service Manual only states "GL-5". Seems like they missed an opportunity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhargis View Post
Anybody know if all of the lubes in the cocktail are up to the MT-1 spec? If not, perhaps this could be contributing to the unusual wear pattern Dylan is seeing?
None of my cocktail bottles state MT-1. The only component with API Classification is the Hypoy C 80-90 at GL-5.

Reading the labels, I noticed something interesting; the Shockprooftm states no certification on the bottle, other than comparing weights. And the Pennzoil Sychromesh states "excellent synchronizer performance and compatibility with yellow metals, such as bronze, brass and copper components found in manual transaxles and transmissions. Now why would I expect Sychromesh to be corrosive to brass?

Let me also add that it was 5F this morning, and the straight Amsoil Severe Gear 75-90 (SVG) showed very little effect from the temperature! I was pleasantly amazed. Shifted as well from cold start at 5F as it did at 55F. The Amsoil is both GL-5 and MT-1. Should I dare to suggest it as a base for a modified cocktail?
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Old 02-11-2008, 08:26 PM   #1297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhargis View Post
The important part is that any gl-5 lube used in a synchronized transmission also meets MT-1 standards for improved compatability with yellow metals.

Anybody know if all of the lubes in the cocktail are up to the MT-1 spec? If not, perhaps this could be contributing to the unusual wear pattern Dylan is seeing?
Well a quick look at the data sheets for each oil:

Castrol Hypoy C 80w90 Link
Redline Lightweight Shockproof Link
Pennzoil Synchromesh Link

The only one to meet the MT-1 spec is the Castrol Hypoy C, but it only meets it for non-synchronized manual transmissions.

The redline shockproof does not appear to even be GL-5 rated let alone hold MT-1 specs or be API certified.

The Pennzoil Synchromesh also is not GL-5 rated, or meet MT-1 specs.
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Old 02-11-2008, 09:30 PM   #1298
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This is getting interesting...
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Old 02-12-2008, 12:58 AM   #1299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superorb View Post
How hot does the fluid in the tranny normally get (as a frame of reference)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ringe View Post
It's my understanding that this mostly occurs at over 200 degrees...am I wrong about that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhargis View Post
Actually, everywhere I've read says that it becomes corrosive closer to 250 degrees F using modern gl-5/mt-1 lubricants. Seems to me like getting gear oil to that temperature in a manual transmission would be practically impossible. Automatic transmissions with a semi decent cooler don't get that hot even with the torque converter generating tons of frictional heat, it's hard to even get engine oil up that kind of temp. *Anybody correct me if I'm wrong, this is all off the top of my head*

The important part is that any gl-5 lube used in a synchronized transmission also meets MT-1 standards for improved compatability with yellow metals.

Anybody know if all of the lubes in the cocktail are up to the MT-1 spec? If not, perhaps this could be contributing to the unusual wear pattern Dylan is seeing?

I'm sure in the areas where the gear teeth meet, it gets at least that hot from friction. But the oil draws some of the heat away and the rest is transferred through the transmission's case to the outside air. Maybe that could explain the pronounced wear pattern someone noticed on the gears' contact areas? ???????????????????
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Old 02-12-2008, 08:43 AM   #1300
oldhat
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Funniest Nasioc thread ever.
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