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02-12-2008, 10:45 AM | #1301 | |
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Getting the official testing done is probably not cheap, and just because Redline, for example, may not have all of the ratings doesn't mean that it falls short of those specs. But again, without that rating it is technically not a recommended lube, and can make any warranty claims you have loose a chance at approval.
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02-12-2008, 06:14 PM | #1302 | |
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02-12-2008, 06:15 PM | #1303 |
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02-12-2008, 10:37 PM | #1304 |
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02-12-2008, 10:52 PM | #1305 |
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02-13-2008, 01:51 PM | #1306 |
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^^^ wow, 51 pages! The banter on only page 1 was priceless.
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02-13-2008, 03:43 PM | #1307 | |
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On a side note, I recall reading an article on gear oils that featured a tech from Red Line oil. He referenced and approved cocktails, but only within the Red Line product line. |
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02-13-2008, 04:24 PM | #1308 |
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Priceless. Like somebody from redline is really going to approve anybody else's oil. Being a Quality Manager by profession, my observation in every company that I've ever worked for: The promises of a "company rep" or "tech" or whatever their spin-doctored title is (a.k.a. sales person), are nearly never in-line with the thoughts of the folks who make the product, nor are they even always in-line with anything close to reality.
I'm sorry, but I just don't believe everything I hear that has been influenced in any way by a company's marketing department. I'd need some sort of proper and impartial 3rd party test results, or positive experience with a product before I'd give any company's claims any real credit. Let's make some sense of this... Redline claims they have particles that "absorb" some measurable amount of shock, right? Essentially they are claiming that these particles are capable of substantially absorbing and dispersing thousands of pounds per sq. in of surface pressure delevered nearly instantaneously. And these magic particles can do this at a thickness measured in thousands of an inch (in suspension), really closer to a measurement in freakin' microns out of suspension. Do any of you proponents of this not realize that no material of this sort exists? Not to mention if it were to be invented, a qt. of it would probably cost $10,000. I'll also add, that a material compressable/soft enough to do this would be quickly reduced to a useless state by shearing under the pressures seen between gear teeth. These pressure are high enough to shear oil molecules into pieces... That's why there is a change interval on gear oil. If redline really made such a magical oil at its current retail price, every car manufacturer would have it in their product to reduce warranty costs. Redline may still be a great oil, but let's not fool ourselves... there's quite a bit of marketing hype there. Use it all you want, but don't expect it to offer any better protection than any other oil. |
02-13-2008, 05:22 PM | #1309 |
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From the white swirls I noticed in my cocktail when I removed it, it almost seems like the magic particles are teflon powder. Can anyone confirm or deny this?
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02-14-2008, 01:52 PM | #1310 | |
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Send them an e-mail if you want to voice your opinion concerning their product line or claims. I simply shared my experience with Red Line products. I personally don't care what lubricants you or anyone else chooses to run and your attitude is enough to turn my attention elsewhere. |
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02-14-2008, 01:53 PM | #1311 | |
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Send them an e-mail if you want to voice your opinion concerning their product line or claims. I simply shared my experience with Red Line products. I personally don't care what lubricants you or anyone else chooses to run and your attitude is enough to turn my attention elsewhere. |
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02-14-2008, 02:22 PM | #1312 |
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^^^Yeah, I really wasn't aiming it at you, to be honest. Sorry if it came off that way.
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02-14-2008, 02:32 PM | #1313 |
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02-14-2008, 04:59 PM | #1314 |
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Good deal.
The point of my rant has to do with a main ingrediant of the cocktail. My impression is that the redline shockproof is in there to both offset the thin synchromesh and add some sort of shock absorbtion capability + add its synthetic flare. The problem I have with it is that you're mixing another oil (shockproof) that doesn't carry the recommended ratings, and happens to have some properties that are quite different from the oils with which it is being mixed. I'm already apprehensive about my ~1:3 mix of synchromesh and dino gear oil, but at least it's limited to just 2 different ingrediants and the recommended gear oil still holds the large majority of volume. Redline, particularly on this forumn has some sort of magical reputation, and I'm sure they make great gear oils, but I still have to question the claim that shockproof adds any appreciable amount of shock protection to the gearbox... I really think it's 99% marketing, and I'm not a fan of mixing a bunch of stuff together for the sake of marketing claims. The result of mixing a bunch of great ingrediants together does not always = the sum of they're positive properties. |
02-14-2008, 08:55 PM | #1315 | |
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Thanks for clarifying that. I have a feeling that just using GL-5 MT-1 fluids should be sufficient to protect the gearbox, and after that point anything else is a bandaid. Then again, that's exactly what most folks here use it for. The point I would like to make at this point then is that if you don't experience any true issues other than normal design flaws with your Subaru 5mt, don't use the cocktail. If you have damage that would require a rebuild, then I suppose you can take the risk at that point. |
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02-15-2008, 07:09 AM | #1316 |
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So is the general consensus, it's not good in the long run?
It's hard trying to find some definitive answers. |
02-15-2008, 08:27 AM | #1317 |
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02-15-2008, 09:39 AM | #1318 | |||
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The truth be told, we don't know if it is good in the long run or not. What we do know is that none of the fluids in the standard cocktail meet the requirements set by SOA. We know that mixing oil bases/additives from differing manufactures can at times have consequences. We also know that SOA warns against mixing fluid brands in the owners manual, if you are under warranty and have to file a claim you risk it being denied due to the use of the cocktail.
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This is why many of us say this cocktail needs controlled testing. Until testing is done under lab standards you wont have an answer as to it true effects on the transmission in the long term. The fact that SOA may deny my warranty claim on my tranny (should I need to file one) for using the cocktail, is enough for me not to use it (only 3,xxx on this Subaru). It is just not worth the risk. The fluids not meeting the basic requirements/certs set by SOA is the big reason not to use it in my mind. If I were out of warranty I still would not run "this cocktail" as it fails to meet the minimum requirements/certs. I am not saying I would not run a cocktail of some sort, if I did it would all be from one manufacture and meet the GL-5 and MT-1 specs. The best thing one can do to aid in the longevity of any thing requiring oil/lube is to change it on a regular basis with fluids that meet the requirements. You wont see any one in this thread saying the "cocktail" ruined their transmission. The transmission is known to have a weak design, so when a synchro fails or a gear breaks. It is not the oil they are running that they will blame the failure for. Especially since this cocktail is most often used as a band aid after symptoms of a failure are already becoming apparent. So when the transmission fails it is no surprise. See the original post of this thread. Quote:
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02-15-2008, 12:15 PM | #1319 |
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Ok guys, doing a good job of coverering some the general chemistry, how about hitting up some General perceptions with the gear oils for example the "good for bearings, bad for synchros (and vice versa)" rule i've heard over and over again (and experienced previously with Mobil 1 in a previous econobox).
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02-15-2008, 12:33 PM | #1320 |
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ok well after probably 8k miles of coctail, the car is verry dificult to shift into first now...
I will be draining her out for something little cheaper and more simple. you guys have had luck with straight amsoil or valvoline 75-90 correct ?? |
02-15-2008, 01:37 PM | #1321 |
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Amsoil users tend to be very happy, from what I've read here and pretty much every other forum I've ever perused.
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02-15-2008, 02:24 PM | #1322 |
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Which amsoil product?
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02-15-2008, 04:55 PM | #1323 |
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02-15-2008, 04:57 PM | #1324 | |
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02-16-2008, 10:33 AM | #1325 |
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I agree with what flstffxe posted above. Don't take chances if you're not willing to accept the risk. And if El Cheapo works, even better. As long as it's GL-5.
I'm currently trying the Amsoil Severe Gear 75W-90 (SVG). Though it's better than stock, it still pales in comparison to the Cocktail. It's got all the typical complaints of synthetics in this application; too "slippery" with the synchros. DS1 suggests Valvoline (I think) synthetic 75W-90, though I would expect the same result. Both these oils are rated GL-5 and MT-1. I'd be willing to taint mine with a dose of Synchromesh. |
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