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Old 02-12-2008, 11:45 AM   #1301
jhargis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flstffxe View Post
...
The only one to meet the MT-1 spec is the Castrol Hypoy C, but it only meets it for non-synchronized manual transmissions.

The redline shockproof does not appear to even be GL-5 rated let alone hold MT-1 specs or be API certified.

The Pennzoil Synchromesh also is not GL-5 rated, or meet MT-1 specs...
I was at Autozone buying a clip for my interior door panel and I happened by the gear oil shelf there. Seems like pretty much all of the "main stream" conventional and synthetic 75w90/80w90 gear oils off the shelf of the local autozone are both GL-5 and MT-1 spec (Valvoline, Castrol, Mobil). Even the cheapy store brand Coastal stuff was GL-5 and MT-1.

Getting the official testing done is probably not cheap, and just because Redline, for example, may not have all of the ratings doesn't mean that it falls short of those specs. But again, without that rating it is technically not a recommended lube, and can make any warranty claims you have loose a chance at approval.
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Old 02-12-2008, 07:14 PM   #1302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhargis View Post
I was at Autozone buying a clip for my interior door panel and I happened by the gear oil shelf there. Seems like pretty much all of the "main stream" conventional and synthetic 75w90/80w90 gear oils off the shelf of the local autozone are both GL-5 and MT-1 spec (Valvoline, Castrol, Mobil). Even the cheapy store brand Coastal stuff was GL-5 and MT-1.

Getting the official testing done is probably not cheap, and just because Redline, for example, may not have all of the ratings doesn't mean that it falls short of those specs. But again, without that rating it is technically not a recommended lube, and can make any warranty claims you have loose a chance at approval.
I'm running the Coastal GL5 75w90 dino stuff in the car now. It's not bad, but I also got the car with 65k miles and never a tranny flush, so I have no frame of reference except my silky smooth honda 5MT
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Old 02-12-2008, 07:15 PM   #1303
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Funniest Nasioc thread ever.
Nope that was airplane vs. conveyor.
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Old 02-12-2008, 11:37 PM   #1304
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Nope that was airplane vs. conveyor.
Eh???
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Old 02-12-2008, 11:52 PM   #1305
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Eh???

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...plane+conveyor
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Old 02-13-2008, 02:51 PM   #1306
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^^^ wow, 51 pages! The banter on only page 1 was priceless.
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Old 02-13-2008, 04:43 PM   #1307
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Originally Posted by vtecTHIS View Post
gonna try this myself. though i've known a good chunk of suby guys that have been using the cocktail for YEARS with no ill effect. i'm just more comfortable with sticking with the same mfr to lessen/destroy any chance of fluid seperation

On a side note, I recall reading an article on gear oils that featured a tech from Red Line oil. He referenced and approved cocktails, but only within the Red Line product line.
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Old 02-13-2008, 05:24 PM   #1308
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...but only within the Red Line product line....
Priceless. Like somebody from redline is really going to approve anybody else's oil. Being a Quality Manager by profession, my observation in every company that I've ever worked for: The promises of a "company rep" or "tech" or whatever their spin-doctored title is (a.k.a. sales person), are nearly never in-line with the thoughts of the folks who make the product, nor are they even always in-line with anything close to reality.

I'm sorry, but I just don't believe everything I hear that has been influenced in any way by a company's marketing department. I'd need some sort of proper and impartial 3rd party test results, or positive experience with a product before I'd give any company's claims any real credit.

Let's make some sense of this... Redline claims they have particles that "absorb" some measurable amount of shock, right? Essentially they are claiming that these particles are capable of substantially absorbing and dispersing thousands of pounds per sq. in of surface pressure delevered nearly instantaneously. And these magic particles can do this at a thickness measured in thousands of an inch (in suspension), really closer to a measurement in freakin' microns out of suspension. Do any of you proponents of this not realize that no material of this sort exists? Not to mention if it were to be invented, a qt. of it would probably cost $10,000.

I'll also add, that a material compressable/soft enough to do this would be quickly reduced to a useless state by shearing under the pressures seen between gear teeth. These pressure are high enough to shear oil molecules into pieces... That's why there is a change interval on gear oil.

If redline really made such a magical oil at its current retail price, every car manufacturer would have it in their product to reduce warranty costs. Redline may still be a great oil, but let's not fool ourselves... there's quite a bit of marketing hype there.

Use it all you want, but don't expect it to offer any better protection than any other oil.
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Old 02-13-2008, 06:22 PM   #1309
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From the white swirls I noticed in my cocktail when I removed it, it almost seems like the magic particles are teflon powder. Can anyone confirm or deny this?
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Old 02-14-2008, 02:52 PM   #1310
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Originally Posted by jhargis View Post
Priceless. Like somebody from redline is really going to approve anybody else's oil. Being a Quality Manager by profession, my observation in every company that I've ever worked for: The promises of a "company rep" or "tech" or whatever their spin-doctored title is (a.k.a. sales person), are nearly never in-line with the thoughts of the folks who make the product, nor are they even always in-line with anything close to reality.

I'm sorry, but I just don't believe everything I hear that has been influenced in any way by a company's marketing department. I'd need some sort of proper and impartial 3rd party test results, or positive experience with a product before I'd give any company's claims any real credit.

Let's make some sense of this... Redline claims they have particles that "absorb" some measurable amount of shock, right? Essentially they are claiming that these particles are capable of substantially absorbing and dispersing thousands of pounds per sq. in of surface pressure delevered nearly instantaneously. And these magic particles can do this at a thickness measured in thousands of an inch (in suspension), really closer to a measurement in freakin' microns out of suspension. Do any of you proponents of this not realize that no material of this sort exists? Not to mention if it were to be invented, a qt. of it would probably cost $10,000.

I'll also add, that a material compressable/soft enough to do this would be quickly reduced to a useless state by shearing under the pressures seen between gear teeth. These pressure are high enough to shear oil molecules into pieces... That's why there is a change interval on gear oil.

If redline really made such a magical oil at its current retail price, every car manufacturer would have it in their product to reduce warranty costs. Redline may still be a great oil, but let's not fool ourselves... there's quite a bit of marketing hype there.

Use it all you want, but don't expect it to offer any better protection than any other oil.
Hey man, don't shoot the messenger. You act like I was the Red Line rep.
Send them an e-mail if you want to voice your opinion concerning their product line or claims.
I simply shared my experience with Red Line products.
I personally don't care what lubricants you or anyone else chooses to run and your attitude is enough to turn my attention elsewhere.
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Old 02-14-2008, 02:53 PM   #1311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhargis View Post
Priceless. Like somebody from redline is really going to approve anybody else's oil. Being a Quality Manager by profession, my observation in every company that I've ever worked for: The promises of a "company rep" or "tech" or whatever their spin-doctored title is (a.k.a. sales person), are nearly never in-line with the thoughts of the folks who make the product, nor are they even always in-line with anything close to reality.

I'm sorry, but I just don't believe everything I hear that has been influenced in any way by a company's marketing department. I'd need some sort of proper and impartial 3rd party test results, or positive experience with a product before I'd give any company's claims any real credit.

Let's make some sense of this... Redline claims they have particles that "absorb" some measurable amount of shock, right? Essentially they are claiming that these particles are capable of substantially absorbing and dispersing thousands of pounds per sq. in of surface pressure delevered nearly instantaneously. And these magic particles can do this at a thickness measured in thousands of an inch (in suspension), really closer to a measurement in freakin' microns out of suspension. Do any of you proponents of this not realize that no material of this sort exists? Not to mention if it were to be invented, a qt. of it would probably cost $10,000.

I'll also add, that a material compressable/soft enough to do this would be quickly reduced to a useless state by shearing under the pressures seen between gear teeth. These pressure are high enough to shear oil molecules into pieces... That's why there is a change interval on gear oil.

If redline really made such a magical oil at its current retail price, every car manufacturer would have it in their product to reduce warranty costs. Redline may still be a great oil, but let's not fool ourselves... there's quite a bit of marketing hype there.

Use it all you want, but don't expect it to offer any better protection than any other oil.
Hey man, don't shoot the messenger. You act like I was the Red Line rep.
Send them an e-mail if you want to voice your opinion concerning their product line or claims.
I simply shared my experience with Red Line products.
I personally don't care what lubricants you or anyone else chooses to run and your attitude is enough to turn my attention elsewhere.
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Old 02-14-2008, 03:22 PM   #1312
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^^^Yeah, I really wasn't aiming it at you, to be honest. Sorry if it came off that way.
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Old 02-14-2008, 03:32 PM   #1313
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^^^Yeah, I really wasn't aiming it at you, to be honest. Sorry if it came off that way.

Accepted. No harm done. And you have brought up some very good points.
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Old 02-14-2008, 05:59 PM   #1314
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Good deal.

The point of my rant has to do with a main ingrediant of the cocktail. My impression is that the redline shockproof is in there to both offset the thin synchromesh and add some sort of shock absorbtion capability + add its synthetic flare. The problem I have with it is that you're mixing another oil (shockproof) that doesn't carry the recommended ratings, and happens to have some properties that are quite different from the oils with which it is being mixed. I'm already apprehensive about my ~1:3 mix of synchromesh and dino gear oil, but at least it's limited to just 2 different ingrediants and the recommended gear oil still holds the large majority of volume. Redline, particularly on this forumn has some sort of magical reputation, and I'm sure they make great gear oils, but I still have to question the claim that shockproof adds any appreciable amount of shock protection to the gearbox... I really think it's 99% marketing, and I'm not a fan of mixing a bunch of stuff together for the sake of marketing claims. The result of mixing a bunch of great ingrediants together does not always = the sum of they're positive properties.
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Old 02-14-2008, 09:55 PM   #1315
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Originally Posted by jhargis View Post
Actually, everywhere I've read says that it becomes corrosive closer to 250 degrees F using modern gl-5/mt-1 lubricants. Seems to me like getting gear oil to that temperature in a manual transmission would be practically impossible. Automatic transmissions with a semi decent cooler don't get that hot even with the torque converter generating tons of frictional heat, it's hard to even get engine oil up that kind of temp. *Anybody correct me if I'm wrong, this is all off the top of my head*

The important part is that any gl-5 lube used in a synchronized transmission also meets MT-1 standards for improved compatability with yellow metals.

Anybody know if all of the lubes in the cocktail are up to the MT-1 spec? If not, perhaps this could be contributing to the unusual wear pattern Dylan is seeing?

Thanks for clarifying that. I have a feeling that just using GL-5 MT-1 fluids should be sufficient to protect the gearbox, and after that point anything else is a bandaid.

Then again, that's exactly what most folks here use it for.

The point I would like to make at this point then is that if you don't experience any true issues other than normal design flaws with your Subaru 5mt, don't use the cocktail. If you have damage that would require a rebuild, then I suppose you can take the risk at that point.
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Old 02-15-2008, 08:09 AM   #1316
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So is the general consensus, it's not good in the long run?

It's hard trying to find some definitive answers.
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Old 02-15-2008, 09:27 AM   #1317
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So is the general consensus, it's not good in the long run?

It's hard trying to find some definitive answers.
All depends on YOUR car and YOUR particular scenario.
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Old 02-15-2008, 10:39 AM   #1318
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Originally Posted by BeBop86 View Post
So is the general consensus, it's not good in the long run?
The truth be told, we don't know if it is good in the long run or not. What we do know is that none of the fluids in the standard cocktail meet the requirements set by SOA. We know that mixing oil bases/additives from differing manufactures can at times have consequences. We also know that SOA warns against mixing fluid brands in the owners manual, if you are under warranty and have to file a claim you risk it being denied due to the use of the cocktail.


Quote:
Originally Posted by flstffxe View Post
Well a quick look at the data sheets for each oil:

Castrol Hypoy C 80w90 Link
Redline Lightweight Shockproof Link
Pennzoil Synchromesh Link

The only one to meet the MT-1 spec is the Castrol Hypoy C, but it only meets it for non-synchronized manual transmissions.

The redline shockproof does not appear to even be GL-5 rated let alone hold MT-1 specs or be API certified.

The Pennzoil Synchromesh also is not GL-5 rated, or meet MT-1 specs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flstffxe View Post
SOA has put (at least since '06) a warning in the owners manual stating "under the "Manual Transmission Oil" in the "Recommended grade and viscosity" section

"Each oil manufacture has its own base oils and additives. Never use different brands together."
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeBop86 View Post
It's hard trying to find some definitive answers.

This is why many of us say this cocktail needs controlled testing. Until testing is done under lab standards you wont have an answer as to it true effects on the transmission in the long term. The fact that SOA may deny my warranty claim on my tranny (should I need to file one) for using the cocktail, is enough for me not to use it (only 3,xxx on this Subaru). It is just not worth the risk. The fluids not meeting the basic requirements/certs set by SOA is the big reason not to use it in my mind.

If I were out of warranty I still would not run "this cocktail" as it fails to meet the minimum requirements/certs. I am not saying I would not run a cocktail of some sort, if I did it would all be from one manufacture and meet the GL-5 and MT-1 specs. The best thing one can do to aid in the longevity of any thing requiring oil/lube is to change it on a regular basis with fluids that meet the requirements.

You wont see any one in this thread saying the "cocktail" ruined their transmission. The transmission is known to have a weak design, so when a synchro fails or a gear breaks. It is not the oil they are running that they will blame the failure for. Especially since this cocktail is most often used as a band aid after symptoms of a failure are already becoming apparent. So when the transmission fails it is no surprise. See the original post of this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by njskatchmo View Post
I have about 70k miles on my 02 WRX. I can't get my car into 1st in a roll and Reverse always resists, not to mention a stiff 2nd gear. Am I ready for the Cocktail of:

1qt Redline lightweight shockproof
1qt Pennzoil Synchromesh
2qt Castrol HypoyC 80w-90

Is my tranny too high mileage for this?

How hard is it to replace this yourself? Anyone have directions?

What about the differential fluid any comments?
Fluids/oils/lubes wont fix a mechanical problem, but they may cover it up. Just like running a heavier oil to cover up a rod knock. The rod bearing/crank is still bad even though you don't hear it.
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Old 02-15-2008, 01:15 PM   #1319
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Ok guys, doing a good job of coverering some the general chemistry, how about hitting up some General perceptions with the gear oils for example the "good for bearings, bad for synchros (and vice versa)" rule i've heard over and over again (and experienced previously with Mobil 1 in a previous econobox).
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Old 02-15-2008, 01:33 PM   #1320
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ok well after probably 8k miles of coctail, the car is verry dificult to shift into first now...

I will be draining her out for something little cheaper and more simple.

you guys have had luck with straight amsoil or valvoline 75-90 correct ??
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Old 02-15-2008, 02:37 PM   #1321
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Amsoil users tend to be very happy, from what I've read here and pretty much every other forum I've ever perused.
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Old 02-15-2008, 03:24 PM   #1322
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Which amsoil product?
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Old 02-15-2008, 05:55 PM   #1323
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Which amsoil product?
Severe Gear 75w90.
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Old 02-15-2008, 05:57 PM   #1324
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ok well after probably 8k miles of coctail, the car is verry dificult to shift into first now...

I will be draining her out for something little cheaper and more simple.

you guys have had luck with straight amsoil or valvoline 75-90 correct ??
I'm running straight El Cheapo Coastal $2.99/qt GL-5 75w90 dino oil. I like it much more than the cocktail. I've got an 02 with an abused tranny from previous owner. 80k miles on the clock maybe.
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Old 02-16-2008, 11:33 AM   #1325
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I agree with what flstffxe posted above. Don't take chances if you're not willing to accept the risk. And if El Cheapo works, even better. As long as it's GL-5.

I'm currently trying the Amsoil Severe Gear 75W-90 (SVG). Though it's better than stock, it still pales in comparison to the Cocktail. It's got all the typical complaints of synthetics in this application; too "slippery" with the synchros.

DS1 suggests Valvoline (I think) synthetic 75W-90, though I would expect the same result.

Both these oils are rated GL-5 and MT-1. I'd be willing to taint mine with a dose of Synchromesh.
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