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Old 01-18-2006, 10:48 AM   #1
MF-DIF
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Default I've been snapping studs rotating the wheels...

I've rotated them many times in the past but all of a sudden I've developed this new problem. I'm not sure why, I have not changed anything in the method. Maybe I need to?

(1) Loose lugs (X pattern)
(2) Jack up the car
(3) Remove loosend lugs
(4) Rotate tires
(5) Re-tighten lugs (X pattern)
(6) Lower car back to the ground
(7) Final tightening down of the lugs (X patten)

Step (1) is where I snap the studs. I will break 4 of the lugs free, then the last one typically won't budge until I really get into it, then it snaps off. This has happend to me two times in a row now.
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Old 01-18-2006, 10:55 AM   #2
Patrick Olsen
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The problem is that the wheel/tire has some load on it, and as you loosen the other 4 lugs now that last 1 is holding all the side loading.

I jack the car up so that the tire is loaded just enough to keep it from moving while I break the lugnuts loose. Normally this works out just fine. Occasionally I'll get to the last one and find it's really tight, so I'll jack it up to get the tire off the ground, rotate the wheel a bit so the tight lugnut is in a different spot, put it back down, and try again. I haven't broken one in a long time.

Another thing you can do that might help is run a thread chaser/cleaner over your studs and also into your lugnuts. Don't use a tap and die set (as they can try to cut new threads, which is obviously not the desired effect), you really want a thread chaser set. It just cleans the threads and makes things nice and smooth.

Last but not least, the use of anti-seize compound on lugnuts has been debated here a couple of times. There are some who use it with no problems, some who use and have problems, blah blah blah. I don't use it, and I don't advise using it (as it can throw off your torque numbers), but you can search and read for yourself and see if you want to try it.

Pat Olsen
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Old 01-18-2006, 11:45 AM   #3
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The snapping studs could be the final result of damage inflicted earlier by an impact wrench monkey.
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Old 01-18-2006, 01:09 PM   #4
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You only need to tighten lugs to 65-75lbs.....I use a tourqe wrench, cuz my rim-tire combo is are rilly tempermental
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Old 01-18-2006, 01:25 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Olsen
Last but not least, the use of anti-seize compound on lugnuts has been debated here a couple of times. There are some who use it with no problems, some who use and have problems, blah blah blah. I don't use it, and I don't advise using it (as it can throw off your torque numbers), but you can search and read for yourself and see if you want to try it.

Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
that scares the crap out of me. My brother-in-law did that on his car...well, his wheel ended up falling off in a parking lot, had to get new rotor, wheel, and fender.
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Old 01-18-2006, 02:13 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MF-DIF
I've rotated them many times in the past but all of a sudden I've developed this new problem. I'm not sure why, I have not changed anything in the method. Maybe I need to?

(1) Loose lugs (X pattern)
(2) Jack up the car
(3) Remove loosend lugs
(4) Rotate tires
(5) Re-tighten lugs (X pattern)
(6) Lower car back to the ground
(7) Final tightening down of the lugs (X patten)

Step (1) is where I snap the studs. I will break 4 of the lugs free, then the last one typically won't budge until I really get into it, then it snaps off. This has happend to me two times in a row now.
What torque are you using in step 7. Sounds like they were overtightened.
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Old 01-18-2006, 03:24 PM   #7
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....overtorquing....plain, pure and simple.

...NO more than 75ft-lbs....70 is plenty.......what I do is tighten all, in star pattern to ~60(whatever 'low 60's' the wrench ends up on when adjusting it) and then final them to 72ft-lbs
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Old 01-18-2006, 03:56 PM   #8
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So what's the problem with using the E-brake or putting the car in gear and keeping the wheel off the ground the whle time? I keep the torque around 65 or so, and I wouldn't think it'd stress the transmission.
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Old 01-18-2006, 04:31 PM   #9
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I have snapped many wheel studs on other cars and I always use a torque wrench. Unlike others, I always use a little anti-sieze on my studs. Since I have started using it, my lugs come off like butter each time. Never had any problems with wheels coming off or lugs loosening. I retorque the lugs at least twice after loosening or removing a wheel (about two or 3 days apart). Great results.

Another thing, when I have any service done, I always recheck and torque the lugs because I know they overtighten them all the time with an impact wrench.
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Old 01-18-2006, 09:27 PM   #10
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Quote:
what I do is tighten all, in star pattern to ~60(whatever 'low 60's' the wrench ends up on when adjusting it) and then final them to 72ft-lbs
I used to do it this way, but then I read somewhere (maybe in Carroll Smith's fastener book?) that you should always have at least 1/4 turn into the final torque. Something about not needing to overcome static friction which can be way off the kinetic friction. I would think that is especially true with less than clean threads on lugs and nuts.

In spite of the recommendations not to, I have always used anti-seize. I also use it on the mounting face of the wheel after a couple of times when the Audi wheels had corroded to the hubs. No fun whacking a 2x4 with a big hammer lying on your back under the car.
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Old 01-19-2006, 12:36 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MF-DIF
... I will break 4 of the lugs free, then the last one typically won't budge until I really get into it, then it snaps off.
are you running stock wheels, or aftermarket? If aftermarket, are they hubcentric?
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Old 01-19-2006, 07:30 AM   #12
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I use anti-sieze also. I had trouble with light corrosion on the threads of the lugs preventing the proper joint tension -- this resulted in the lugs loosening while driving. Once I started using a bit of anti-sieze I dropped the torque to 60ft-lbs. Now I get maybe one loose lug each time till the third check. By then I'm usually swapping wheels again.

Your lugs/studs might be corroded together.
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Old 01-19-2006, 08:41 AM   #13
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"You only need to tighten lugs to 65-75lbs"

I strongly suggest you consult your owner's manual for proper lug nut torque settings - mine says 92 ft lbs, others I've seen say 80-85. Consider it my opinion that if you set your lug nut torque 30 lbs less than recommended by your manufacturer, your wheels may loosen and fall off, and then you're on the hook - no warranty for you.

Also, when you loosen the lug uts NEVER do it without the car being partially supported (some weight off the wheel, but the wheels is not off the ground and can't be turned yet). Taking lug nuts loose with the car's weight on them is asking for studs to break.
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Old 01-19-2006, 09:04 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Lewis
"You only need to tighten lugs to 65-75lbs"

I strongly suggest you consult your owner's manual for proper lug nut torque settings - mine says 92 ft lbs, others I've seen say 80-85. Consider it my opinion that if you set your lug nut torque 30 lbs less than recommended by your manufacturer, your wheels may loosen and fall off, and then you're on the hook - no warranty for you.
My FSM, downloaded off of Subaru's website, says the wheel lugnut torque is 65 +/- 7ft-lbs for my car. I always torque to 72ft-lbs.

Which vehicle do you have that says 92ft-lbs? I've never seen a torque spec that high. Even my Mustang's spec is lower than that, and it uses larger (1/2" vs. 12mm) wheel studs.

Pat
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Old 01-19-2006, 09:12 AM   #15
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You would LOVE my wifes Volvo...its Lug bolts get torqued to 120 ft lb. No that is not a typo.
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Old 01-19-2006, 09:23 AM   #16
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Saturn Ion Redline - 92 ft lbs. Again, my suggestion is to check your manual - don't assume.
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Old 01-19-2006, 09:48 AM   #17
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Jim, are you suggesting that that piece of dumbed-down consumer-friendly drivel in your glovebox supercedes the factory service manual?
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Old 01-19-2006, 10:16 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Lewis
Saturn Ion Redline - 92 ft lbs. Again, my suggestion is to check your manual - don't assume.

Jim....what size are those studs??

the Subaru's use a M12 stud.

http://photobucket.com/albums/v113/u...=lugtorque.jpg

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Old 01-19-2006, 10:20 AM   #19
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Here is a statement from my local grease monkey grage.....

"Steelys need to be tightened to a highter torque than Aluminum rims"

I could give lots of resons to agree and dissagree with that statement, that I belive he pull completly out of his butt. Not that I want to drive this thread off topic, but does anyone know for sure?
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Old 01-19-2006, 10:49 AM   #20
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The general assembly torque spec for an M12, grade 8.8 bolt is 85 Nm, or 63 ft-lbs. If it was grade 10.9, torque rises to 125 Nm, or 92 ft-lbs.

Edit: found another source that says for fine thread M12, grade 8.8, the correct torque is 88 Nm, or 65 ft-lbs.

In either case, looks like that's right in the ballpark for what Subaru recommends.

Last edited by Jon Bogert; 01-19-2006 at 11:06 AM.
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Old 01-19-2006, 11:21 AM   #21
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Yes, in general, steel wheels can take higher torque settings, and again, (disclaimer) generally speaking, about 10-15 ft lbs.

Geez - I realize I do this for a living (testify and report on automotive cases), but you guys make me feel like I'm being deposed.

Jon Bogert - yes, I fully expect people to read their owner's manuals - thats the only legal requirement a consumer has for maintaining their vehicle. Not everyone has access to a Subaru shop manual, or Alldata or Shopkey as some of us (me included) do.
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Old 01-19-2006, 11:35 AM   #22
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I think the problem with the anti-sieze is that you don't want it on the mating surfaces of the nut and wheel. That said less on the threads is better.
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Old 01-19-2006, 11:36 AM   #23
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Jim, just like in that other thread (wheel diameters, or something) you're taking the narrow, legalistic view. I guess your career choice leads you to think that way.

The issue here isn't what you could sue Subaru for or what you could prove in court, it's what's right for your car. Some people might read the manual and follow it's directives, even when they knew them to be wrong. I think that most people on this forum are looking for the best available information, regardless of the source. We're trying to do the right thing with our cars here, not pedantically assemble evidence for future court cases.
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Old 01-19-2006, 11:40 AM   #24
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Has nothing to do with court cases, and Jon, you're the one painting this picture with a thin brush. I'd dare to say that 99% of car owners out there don't have access to a Subaru shop manual, unless you have a service manager for a next-door neighbor, and that same 99% have never heard of Alldata or ShopKey. In fact, unless you're an actual, trained technician, 99% of the guys on this forum have never heard of Alldata or ShopKey.

That dumbed down version you speak so highly of is above the reading level of most Americans, and owners manuals rarely even make it out of their protective plastic wrapping.

So, most people have absolutely no clue how tight to torque their lugnuts, so that's why I recommended the owner's manual as a great place to start.
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Old 01-19-2006, 11:58 AM   #25
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So, Jim, what do you do when common sense tells you that the owners manual contains errors. Do you continue to tell "most people" to read it and follow it?

How about we encourage people to THINK, and to question and doublecheck everything they're told by the owners manual, a mechanic, a car salesman, etc?
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