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Old 01-25-2006, 01:37 PM   #1
Kha0S
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Question Reflash Tuners: Timing vs. stock maps?

For those of you out there tuning with reflash type tools, how much modification do you usually find yourself making to the stock ignition maps?

Looking through a few maps for relatively straightforward modifications (ie, bolt-ons), with both reflash and piggyback type solutions, it seems that people/tuners vastly run timing more retarded than the limits to which the factory ECU is prepared to push.

That is, there seem to be precious few locations in the maps where timing is advanced any more than the stock map.

Is my perception false? I'm relatively new to this stuff, so I'm just trying to gather more information... obviously, as boost/load go up, timing should be retarded to prevent knock... but if you're tuning a fuel map and don't find any detonation with the stock timing maps, is there really anything to be gained by trying to advance it?

My observations are based on the 02 WRX timing maps, particularly when running with IAM of 16 and no negative KC.

/Andrew
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Old 01-25-2006, 10:43 PM   #2
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Anyone? Bueller?
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Old 01-25-2006, 11:51 PM   #3
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Without actually doing this (modifying a stock map), my input is only speculation so take it with a grain of salt.

With just a few boltons, advancing the timing probably won't net you much if any gains without also altering the fueling. We all know how rich the stock maps are so the reason you might not see much timing advance beyond the stock ones is because a) they make up the power with a leaner AFR and b) its hard to advance the timing beyond the already high values we have to use due to the engine characteristics.

Now with more mods you might get higher VE, in which case advancing timing is not required to get that power. I ran something like 27* or 28* max advance on my stock turbo whereas right now I'm somewhere around 24* with the VF22. You get more out of the same timing values which is also why it may seem people don't add any advance - you don't have to!

Much larger turbo setups (500hp ect) I've seen logs where the max advance is in the teens. All depends on setup.
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Old 01-26-2006, 07:34 AM   #4
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Well put, cdvma.

What I'll do today is prep up some charts of the stock timing tables in terms that some of the piggyback guys are used to, and post them.

The factory load index is grams/cyl charge, which is proportional to MAF/RPM. I'll see if I can massage the tables and decouple load from RPM entirely, and present things in MAF vs. RPM, and see what people think.

/Andrew
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Old 01-26-2006, 11:47 AM   #5
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on a relatively stock car, youre going to find that if you lean out the mixture a bit, you will gain a few hp. since these cars are programmed to be able to accept different octane levels, you could tune for that, and possibly net more hp as well.

imho, it seems that a given engine will have knock thresholds at a given afr and ignition advance at a particular load no matter what is providing the air. bolt ons will change VE slightly which will allow timing to be lower for the same specific output. most stage 0, 1, 2 will run more boost than stock...which will require extending the boundaries of the map, which therein change the map....but chances are, the values at the same load point (which were then just moved towards the lower axis) are going to be relatively the same.
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Old 01-26-2006, 11:50 AM   #6
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I run 4 more degrees on most of the timing table.

But I have the alch.....

In my experience, on regular pump gas, there isnt a lot you can do under heavy throttle on the timing tables. Most of where I could get away with changing timing was at low boost and in the areas where it is still spooling up.
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Old 01-26-2006, 12:26 PM   #7
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Old 01-26-2006, 12:26 PM   #8
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happasaiyan --

Yeah, I've leaned things out to 11.5:1 across the board on 93 octane, showing a nice 16 IAM, and I'm finding that the car is making lots of useful horsepower. Since it's winter, I'm just going to keep things where they are and enjoy the improvements.

I'm sure TMS will convince me to install water injection before the year is out, though.

Thanks for posting your observations on timing, guys... keep 'em coming.
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Old 01-26-2006, 12:29 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha0S
Yeah, I've leaned things out to 11.5:1 across the board on 93 octane
Please excuse my ignorance, but when you say 11.5:1 across the board, you mean across the board at 100% throttle? or "everywehre"?
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Old 01-26-2006, 01:22 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeramie
Please excuse my ignorance, but when you say 11.5:1 across the board, you mean across the board at 100% throttle? or "everywehre"?
At 100% throttle and the boost curve that I've programmed. That is, the load/RPM cells commonly seen by my ECU, with the boost curve that I'm running, are all modified such that my AFR is 11.5:1. Richer to the right (to help protect against damage on overboost) and same/bit leaner to the left (since I haven't had a chance to dyno test those cells, they're conservatively tuned).
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Old 01-26-2006, 01:42 PM   #11
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My timing map (vf34) is pretty much the same as stock, cept for two places i can see. In the higher load/ higher RPM sites, there is timing pulled. looks like between 4-8o. IN the mid load, low RPM sites there is timing added, about 4-8 again. I don't know all the technicals about timing. . this was tuned by jorge.
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Old 01-26-2006, 01:48 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hondaeater69
My timing map (vf34) is pretty much the same as stock, cept for two places i can see. In the higher load/ higher RPM sites, there is timing pulled. looks like between 4-8o. IN the mid load, low RPM sites there is timing added, about 4-8 again. I don't know all the technicals about timing. . this was tuned by jorge.
I've seen in Jorge's maps that he also modifies the knock correction map as well- did you take that into account?

Also, my understand is if you lean out the car, you will generally need less timing since there is less fuel to combust. The stock timing on a WRX goes up above 30 degrees at redline but that's running around 10:1 AFRs or even richer.

Thanks,
Mike
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Old 01-26-2006, 02:05 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazymikie
I've seen in Jorge's maps that he also modifies the knock correction map as well- did you take that into account?

Also, my understand is if you lean out the car, you will generally need less timing since there is less fuel to combust. The stock timing on a WRX goes up above 30 degrees at redline but that's running around 10:1 AFRs or even richer.

Thanks,
Mike

you mean the dynamic advance map? Yes he did change the map also. it's leveled out to 10.59 in all sites of 1.84 load and RPM's and greater. WHich translates into more timing in lower RPM sites, and slightly more in the mid to upper.
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Old 01-26-2006, 02:33 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha0S
At 100% throttle and the boost curve that I've programmed. That is, the load/RPM cells commonly seen by my ECU, with the boost curve that I'm running, are all modified such that my AFR is 11.5:1. Richer to the right (to help protect against damage on overboost) and same/bit leaner to the left (since I haven't had a chance to dyno test those cells, they're conservatively tuned).
Thats what I thought. Just wanted to make sure I was understanding correctly. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Old 01-26-2006, 04:42 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazymikie
Also, my understand is if you lean out the car, you will generally need less timing since there is less fuel to combust.
mike, your basic understanding is correct.

however it's not so much that there's less fuel, rather that the flame propigation speed in a more optimal AFR is faster. thus you need less "lead time."

you end up in a situation like chris and happa pointed out... you can't quite run the same advance as you once did because you've leaned it out, but the reality is you don't HAVE to.

andrew, basically make the timing map an inverse of the torque output of the engine. the torque is basically an indication of VE, and VE and requisite minimum best timing are inversely proportional.

as a first approximation of torque you can use mafv/rpm... now where have i seen that before?
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Old 01-26-2006, 05:08 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000
mike, your basic understanding is correct.

however it's not so much that there's less fuel, rather that the flame propigation speed in a more optimal AFR is faster. thus you need less "lead time."

you end up in a situation like chris and happa pointed out... you can't quite run the same advance as you once did because you've leaned it out, but the reality is you don't HAVE to.

andrew, basically make the timing map an inverse of the torque output of the engine. the torque is basically an indication of VE, and VE and requisite minimum best timing are inversely proportional.

as a first approximation of torque you can use mafv/rpm... now where have i seen that before?
Thanks Ken- I guess that's what I get for not paying attention and posting during work

Not that I'd ever do such a thing....
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Old 01-26-2006, 06:15 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000
andrew, basically make the timing map an inverse of the torque output of the engine. the torque is basically an indication of VE, and VE and requisite minimum best timing are inversely proportional.

as a first approximation of torque you can use mafv/rpm... now where have i seen that before?
however, if I'm not encountering any knock at my current ignition timings, is it best to just leave it alone? it seems, from the comments here, that advancing any further won't do much, and if it's not knocking, I shouldn't need to retard either... I know the real answer is "get to a dyno and tune your ignition timings the real way," but that's not feasible right now.

on a sort of side note, I'd like to have a meeting of the New England DIY tuners at some point in the early spring... get TMS, you, mike, and whoever else out somewhere for some beer and conversation.
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Old 01-26-2006, 06:28 PM   #18
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Timing, unless way off, buys you very little. I'd leave it alone, Andrew.
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Old 01-26-2006, 09:19 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jblaine
Timing, unless way off, buys you very little. I'd leave it alone, Andrew.
That's what I've been thinking.
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Old 01-26-2006, 09:56 PM   #20
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You could always try pulling a little fuel out too in the midrange- if you look at the OEM maps, the car runs leaner in the midrange and richens up towards redline. There may be some more power to be had by leaning things out a bit.
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Old 01-26-2006, 10:02 PM   #21
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Oh- and I'm always down for beers and talking cars Just let me know when and where.
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Old 01-27-2006, 10:33 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazymikie
You could always try pulling a little fuel out too in the midrange- if you look at the OEM maps, the car runs leaner in the midrange and richens up towards redline. There may be some more power to be had by leaning things out a bit.
Yeah... judging from the factory timing advance map, as well as talking with some other tuners, the EJ20 seems to hit a VE peak around 4800RPM, which is why you can run it a bit leaner and advance the timing. I'm too new at this to verify if that's indeed the case, but it sounds good to me.

/Andrew
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Old 01-27-2006, 11:53 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha0S
Yeah... judging from the factory timing advance map, as well as talking with some other tuners, the EJ20 seems to hit a VE peak around 4800RPM, which is why you can run it a bit leaner and advance the timing. I'm too new at this to verify if that's indeed the case, but it sounds good to me.

/Andrew
VE peak will depend on VE mods. Exhaust, turbo, intake, any porting.
I would say that the turbo is the primary VE mod that is done to the EJ as it is the biggest restriction.

TMS
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