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Old 01-27-2006, 12:42 AM   #1
Zumble
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Default Analyze my log that threw a P0244

This is a 4th and 5th gear run in 22 degree weather. My car threw a P0244 (overboost) in 5th. Wondering if it's a tuning issue or a boostcreep issue. The table columns don't quite line up. I guess the two lines that really makesa difference are:
9874 4733 32.502 100 13 110 14.945 7 78.76 17.557 23.53 100 11.14

10044 4785 32.502 100 13 110 14.945 7 3.06 17.557 24.71 100 11.14

RPM 4733, 4785
AB Man Pressure: 32.502, 32.502
Throttle: 100%, 100%
Ing Timing: 13, 13
Speed: 110, 110
Atmos Pressure: 14.9, 14.9
Knock Correction: 7, 7
IDC: 78.76, 3.06
Primary Wastegate DC: 23.5 24.7
Fuel Pump: 100%, 100%
AFR: 11.14, 11.14

Code:
Time	 (RPM)	Manifold AP (PSI)	Throttle (%)  Timing (BTDC)  Speed (MPH)	Atmospheric Pressure (PSI)	KC (BTDC)	IDC (%)	Manifold RP (PSI)	Primary WDC (%)	FP DC (%)	Air/Fuel Sensor #1 (AFR)
0	3624	9.722	28.24	40	65	14.945	-4	18.55	-4.353	36.08	33.33	14.01
170	3624	14.365	42.35	34	65	14.945	2	27.06	-0.29	38.43	66.67	14.47
340	3648	17.992	54.12	25	65	14.945	5	38.14	3.482	40.78	100	12.98
510	3718	23.361	70.98	14	65	14.945	6	54.73	9.141	42.75	100	11.71
681	3776	30.035	100	9	65	14.945	4	72.49	15.671	48.24	100	11.14
851	3839	33.953	100	9	65	14.945	4	79.43	18.427	44.31	100	11.14
1021	3910	34.678	100	9	65	14.945	4	77.57	18.427	32.55	100	11.14
1191	3983	33.663	100	9	65	14.945	4	70.53	18.427	28.63	100	11.14
1362	4079	32.502	100	9	68	14.945	5	73.1	17.557	32.16	100	11.14
1532	4128	31.922	100	9	68	14.945	5	71.33	16.976	36.08	100	11.14
1702	4199	31.631	100	10	71	14.945	5	72.55	16.686	39.22	100	11.14
1872	4278	31.922	100	10	71	14.945	5	73.93	16.976	39.61	100	11.14
2043	4374	32.502	100	11	71	14.945	6	77.45	17.557	40	100	11.14
2213	4425	32.792	100	11	75	14.945	6	76.46	17.847	39.22	100	11.14
2383	4498	32.937	100	11	75	14.945	6	77.73	17.992	38.82	100	11.14
2553	4538	32.792	100	12	75	14.945	6	77.45	17.992	38.82	100	11.14
2724	4639	32.792	100	12	78	14.945	6	78.17	17.847	38.82	100	11.14
2894	4720	32.792	100	12	78	14.945	6	80.56	17.702	39.22	100	11.14
3064	4736	32.647	100	12	78	14.945	6	81.84	17.702	39.61	100	11.14
3234	4847	32.502	100	12	81	14.945	6	81.68	17.557	40.78	100	11.14
3405	4894	32.357	100	12	81	14.945	6	82.48	17.557	41.57	100	11.14
3575	4968	32.357	100	12	85	14.945	6	81.61	17.267	43.14	100	11.14
3745	5031	32.212	100	12	85	14.945	6	85.86	17.267	45.1	100	11.14
3915	5068	32.212	100	12	85	14.945	6	85.4	17.267	46.27	100	11.14
4086	5172	32.067	100	14	88	14.945	7	86.06	17.122	47.84	100	11.14
4256	5186	32.067	100	14	88	14.945	7	86.3	17.122	49.02	100	11.14
4426	5277	32.067	100	14	88	14.945	7	85.56	17.122	49.8	100	11.14
4596	5308	31.922	100	14	91	14.945	7	87.18	16.976	51.37	100	11.14
4767	5359	31.922	100	14	91	14.945	7	88.03	16.976	52.94	100	11.14
4937	5456	31.922	100	15	91	14.945	7	86.14	16.976	53.33	100	11.14
5107	5486	31.922	100	15	94	14.945	7	88.95	16.976	52.94	100	11.14
5277	5560	31.922	100	15	94	14.945	7	90.15	16.976	52.55	100	11.14
5448	5605	31.776	100	15	94	14.945	7	90.87	16.831	52.94	100	11.14
5618	5670	31.776	100	16	98	14.945	7	89.51	16.831	52.94	100	11.14
5788	5715	31.486	100	16	98	14.945	7	90.22	16.686	52.94	100	11.14
5958	5732	31.486	100	16	100	14.945	7	91.7	16.541	52.94	100	11.14
6129	5787	31.341	100	18	100	14.945	8	90.13	16.396	53.33	100	11.14
6299	5829	31.341	100	18	100	14.945	8	92.02	16.396	53.33	100	11.14
6469	5908	31.196	100	18	103	14.945	8	92	16.251	53.73	100	11.14
6639	6990	19.153	18.43	32	103	14.945	8	4.47	0.871	40.78	33.33	11.14
6810	6639	6.094	9.41	24	103	14.945	0	4.25	-9.141	0	33.33	11.94
6980	6287	4.208	9.02	24	104	14.945	0	4.02	-11.027	0	33.33	12.75
7150	5914	3.192	8.63	24	104	14.945	0	3.79	-11.753	0	33.33	13.21
7320	5597	2.757	9.8	33	104	14.945	0	7.16	-12.188	37.65	33.33	15.04
7490	5314	12.769	57.25	42	106	14.945	0	34.01	-1.451	42.75	66.67	13.67
7661	4331	20.024	100	17	106	14.945	7	58.2	6.82	52.16	100	14.01
7831	4428	30.035	100	5	105	14.945	6	84.08	15.38	52.16	100	12.63
8001	4456	34.824	100	11	105	14.945	6	91.25	18.427	38.82	100	11.37
8171	4471	35.404	100	11	105	14.945	6	85.83	18.427	27.06	100	11.14
8342	4507	34.243	100	11	106	14.945	6	83.65	18.427	22.75	100	11.14
8512	4556	33.518	100	11	106	14.945	6	77.76	18.427	20	100	11.14
8682	4561	33.227	100	11	106	14.945	6	77.83	18.282	19.61	100	11.14
8852	4605	32.937	100	12	106	14.945	6	75.64	17.992	20.78	100	11.14
9023	4613	32.792	100	12	106	14.945	6	77.75	17.992	21.18	100	11.14
9193	4655	32.792	100	12	106	14.945	6	78.44	17.847	21.57	100	11.14
9363	4653	32.647	100	12	108	14.945	6	77.42	17.847	21.96	100	11.14
9533	4687	32.647	100	13	108	14.945	7	76.99	17.702	21.96	100	11.14
9704	4740	32.647	100	13	108	14.945	7	78.87	17.702	22.75	100	11.14
9874	4733	32.502	100	13	110	14.945	7	78.76	17.557	23.53	100	11.14
10044	4785	32.502	100	13	110	14.945	7	3.06	17.557	24.71	100	11.14
10214	4954	27.133	100	17	112	14.945	7	56.01	11.753	0	100	11.94
10385	4823	28.875	78.04	15	112	14.945	7	73.06	13.784	52.55	100	13.09
10555	4771	8.851	10.59	42	112	14.945	-1	3.05	-6.82	37.65	33.33	11.83
10725	4676	4.353	9.41	24	113	14.945	0	2.99	-10.737	0	33.33	11.14
10895	4723	3.482	9.8	24	113	14.945	0	3.02	-11.608	0	33.33	11.83
11066	4671	3.192	9.8	24	113	14.945	0	2.99	-11.753	0	33.33	12.86
11236	4662	3.192	9.8	25	113	14.945	0	6.96	-11.898	37.65	33.33	14.47
11406	4643	3.192	10.98	36	113	14.945	0	7.92	-11.608	37.65	33.33	15.73
11576	4654	3.337	10.98	41	113	14.945	0	7.94	-11.608	37.65	33.33	13.67
11747	4661	4.498	15.69	44	112	14.945	0	10.94	-10.302	38.43	33.33	12.75
11917	4575	4.498	11.37	45	112	14.945	0	9.76	-10.592	38.43	33.33	13.78
12087	4576	3.337	10.2	41	111	14.945	0	2.93	-11.608	37.65	33.33	12.86
12257	4554	3.047	9.8	24	111	14.945	0	2.91	-11.898	0	33.33	14.13
12428	4526	3.047	9.8	24	111	14.945	0	2.9	-11.898	0	33.33	15.96
12598	4545	3.047	9.8	24	109	14.945	0	2.91	-11.898	0	33.33	16.31
12768	4516	3.047	9.8	24	109	14.945	0	2.89	-11.753	0	33.33	17.57
12938	4463	3.192	9.8	24	109	14.945	0	2.86	-11.753	0	33.33	20.33
13109	4426	3.337	9.8	24	109	14.945	0	2.83	-11.608	0	33.33	20.33
13279	4450	3.337	9.8	24	109	14.945	0	2.85	-11.608	0	33.33	20.33
13449	4409	3.337	9.8	24	109	14.945	0	2.82	-11.463	0	33.33	20.33
13619	4389	3.482	9.8	24	107	14.945	0	2.81	-11.463	0	33.33	20.33
13790	4361	3.482	9.8	24	107	14.945	0	2.79	-11.463	0	33.33	20.33
13960	4368	3.482	9.8	24	106	14.945	0	2.8	-11.463	0	33.33	20.33
14130	4337	3.482	9.8	24	106	14.945	0	2.78	-11.463	0	33.33	20.33
14300	4307	3.482	9.8	24	106	14.945	0	2.76	-11.463	0	33.33	20.33
14471	4273	3.627	9.8	24	104	14.945	0	2.73	-11.318	0	33.33	20.33
14641	4253	3.627	9.8	24	104	14.945	0	2.72	-11.318	0	33.33	20.33
14811	4256	3.627	9.8	24	104	14.945	0	2.72	-11.318	0	33.33	20.33
14981	4211	3.627	9.8	24	103	14.945	0	2.69	-11.318	0	33.33	20.33
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Last edited by Zumble; 01-27-2006 at 12:54 AM.
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Old 01-27-2006, 07:10 AM   #2
Kha0S
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Looks like you're getting a boost oscillation on throttle onset in high gear... it's a pretty common problem (and one that I'm still trying to completely eliminate in my WRX) with any closed loop boost control system.

The relevant lines are:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zumble
Code:
Time	 (RPM)	Manifold AP (PSI)	Throttle (%)  Timing (BTDC)  Speed (MPH)	Atmospheric Pressure (PSI)	KC (BTDC)	IDC (%)	Manifold RP (PSI)	Primary WDC (%)	FP DC (%)	Air/Fuel Sensor #1 (AFR)
851	3839	33.953	100	9	65	14.945	4	79.43	18.427	44.31	100	11.14
1021	3910	34.678	100	9	65	14.945	4	77.57	18.427	32.55	100	11.14
1191	3983	33.663	100	9	65	14.945	4	70.53	18.427	28.63	100	11.14
1362	4079	32.502	100	9	68	14.945	5	73.1	17.557	32.16	100	11.14
34.678 on your MAP is around 20.178 psig of boost, and you're over 18psi for a full half second. If your overboost CEL limits are still near stock, that'll trigger it.
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Old 01-27-2006, 08:47 AM   #3
Zumble
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The target boost should be 18.5psi. There is supposed to be a way to tell if I'm having boost creep by the WGDC. Is that column okay? Is my big problem just the overboost limit values? I would assume if the target boost is 18.5 psi and I'm seeing over 20 something is wrong. I'm just trying to determine if this needs to be fixed via porting or just tuning. This is a TD05H-16G on my EJ255.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha0S
Looks like you're getting a boost oscillation on throttle onset in high gear... it's a pretty common problem (and one that I'm still trying to completely eliminate in my WRX) with any closed loop boost control system.

The relevant lines are:


34.678 on your MAP is around 20.178 psig of boost, and you're over 18psi for a full half second. If your overboost CEL limits are still near stock, that'll trigger it.
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Old 01-27-2006, 10:57 AM   #4
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You have a spike rolling into both gears. I assume we're starting in 4th, and you shifted into 5th. I am not seeing a boost oscillation problem at all. Just a spike a few moments after you nail the throttle. After that, your boost is very steady.

You nailed 35.4 psia in 5th a moment after the gear change. (!) I bet it would be really bad if you held 4000rpm steady in 4th (~15% tps), then nailed the throttle.

I'm assuming you have a Cobb tuned by Rifts. Maybe he can send you a new map that is a little less aggressive on the WG duty cycle maps. I'd just send him a PM with the logs. That shouldn't be too complicated to fix.
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Old 01-27-2006, 11:08 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freon
You have a spike rolling into both gears. I assume we're starting in 4th, and you shifted into 5th. I am not seeing a boost oscillation problem at all. Just a spike a few moments after you nail the throttle. After that, your boost is very steady.
Look between timestamps 1702 and 3064... the boost drops low, then shoots up by 1.3 psi before tapering out... so it's probably an overly aggressive burst turbo dynamics map for his system.

I have a similar problem (albeit at a lower boost target, so my spikes don't trigger the P0244)... I had tuned out the oscillation problem on my car at ambient temps in the 40s, but a 20 degree air temp drop has shown it returning with renewed vigor.
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Old 01-27-2006, 11:16 AM   #6
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20+ psi is going out of range for the stock boost solenoid as well. When the boost goes over 20 psi with the stocker you're boost will fluctuate badly and won't hold steady.Was the map you're running on set for 18.5 psi earlier in the fall or summer? It could be you're overboosting with that boost limit due to the colder air which is common since turbo cars love the colder air and physically the cooler air is thinner.
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Old 01-27-2006, 11:57 AM   #7
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Thanks for all the replies guys! I've already emailed the log to Jorge but I think he's busy and hasn't gotten back to me yet. I figured I'd post here and have you guys tell me if it was a mechanical problem. If it was a mechanical problem I was going to have to make plans to pull the turbo etc..

VIR EURORALLY: My car was tuned in Aug in 85 degree weather so it was definitely tuned in much different temps. I was hoping going with a reflash rather than something like UTEC would make me more immune to temp changes.

Kha0S: The first time my car threw a P0244 was actually in 40 degree temps. You said you have a oscillating problem but it doesn't get so bad that you throw a code? Even in 20 degree temps?

Freon:"You nailed 35.4 psia in 5th a moment after the gear change. (!) I bet it would be really bad if you held 4000rpm steady in 4th (~15% tps), then nailed the throttle."

^^ Could you explain that? I'm still learning about all this and that comment is very interesting.

So everyone agrees this is more a tuning problem than a mechanical problem?
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Old 01-27-2006, 12:19 PM   #8
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I would almost guarantee that it's a tuning problem. The only reason why my oscillation doesn't throw a CEL is that I've tuned my turbo dynamics maps to keep it from massively overboosting (peak spike is about 18psi).

Unfortunately, I have no idea how well those same turbo dynamics maps will work when the weather gets warm... but I know we have at least a few more months of cold up here in NH.
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Old 01-27-2006, 12:27 PM   #9
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Now, if the tuning problem were fixed would I end up losing HP? Not that it matters much since it seems like I have a artificial speed limiter now.

When the car throws a P0244, does it go in to a safe mode? I never really pushed the car after throwing the CEL. I did step on the gas a bit and still saw 14 or so PSI. So does the car really do anything when it throws a P0244 or is the CEL just a warning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha0S
I would almost guarantee that it's a tuning problem. The only reason why my oscillation doesn't throw a CEL is that I've tuned my turbo dynamics maps to keep it from massively overboosting (peak spike is about 18psi).

Unfortunately, I have no idea how well those same turbo dynamics maps will work when the weather gets warm... but I know we have at least a few more months of cold up here in NH.
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Old 01-27-2006, 12:31 PM   #10
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Yes, probably. I think you can tune that out. The small dip after the spike is overcorrection for the spike. The initial spike is the problem, and once you fix that I think your car will run great. 1.3psi of backlash or overcorrection isn't that bad, although the initial 3psi spike is more than I would care to have.

Do realize that there is a tradeoff between getting up to target boost fast and spiking. Just the nature of the beast.

You were semi-soft into 4th, but into 5th you jammed it good, and had a higher spike. The more violent you are with the throttle, the more spiking problems you will find. At higher RPM it is worse, because boost builds faster at 5000rpm than 3500rpm. I would think you should prefer the tune to never have a dangerous spike no matter what you do with the car, rather than count on the driver to roll into throttle to avoid spikes. I'm sure some minor tweaking will make this happen.

For now, try not to go from zero throttle to full throttle quickly at high RPM. That will help you avoid the spike until you can get a new map.
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Old 01-27-2006, 12:39 PM   #11
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Excellent advice! Amazing that you guys picked all this up from the log. Thanks to the Tari guys for this also. I'll be sure to roll in to the higher gears rather than jamming them.

This is my first AWD car and I've already had to learn not to do that with the lower gears.. =P

I think I do hear a warning beep from my defis when I slam it in to 5th. I would guess that's the boost spike. Peak hold does show over 20psi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freon
Yes, probably. I think you can tune that out. The small dip after the spike is overcorrection for the spike. The initial spike is the problem, and once you fix that I think your car will run great. 1.3psi of backlash or overcorrection isn't that bad, although the initial 3psi spike is more than I would care to have.

Do realize that there is a tradeoff between getting up to target boost fast and spiking. Just the nature of the beast.

You were semi-soft into 4th, but into 5th you jammed it good, and had a higher spike. The more violent you are with the throttle, the more spiking problems you will find. At higher RPM it is worse, because boost builds faster at 5000rpm than 3500rpm. I would think you should prefer the tune to never have a dangerous spike no matter what you do with the car, rather than count on the driver to roll into throttle to avoid spikes. I'm sure some minor tweaking will make this happen.

For now, try not to go from zero throttle to full throttle quickly at high RPM. That will help you avoid the spike until you can get a new map.
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Old 01-27-2006, 12:46 PM   #12
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Hmm, I'll have to double check Ray, but one thing I noticed is you're dropping down under 30% WGDC in the higher gears. And STILL hitting over boost targets. It appears that the 16G is very "gratuitous" in colder weather. What I'd probobly start with first is the IAT correction map, since we know that the dynamics system works fine in warmer weather; the IAT correction map will let me globally dial back the WGDC map in large chunks.

I'll check that out this weekend and email you out a base map to try out.

Though... I'll say this, it does appear that you're on the border line of creep if it's effectively knocked out 50-60% of the WGDC and it's still overshooting your boost targets.

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com
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Old 01-27-2006, 01:06 PM   #13
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Thanks Jorge. The car does feel very strong too bad it shuts the fun off early. Well, I don't plan on doing anymore 5th gear pulls any time soon so take your time. You've spent a lot of time working with me on my setup so far. Hopefully one day I'll be able to make it down to MD and meet up with you again.. =)

As for boost creep.. it is what it is. Hopefully what ever changes you make to the map will fix the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiftsWRX
Hmm, I'll have to double check Ray, but one thing I noticed is you're dropping down under 30% WGDC in the higher gears. And STILL hitting over boost targets. It appears that the 16G is very "gratuitous" in colder weather. What I'd probobly start with first is the IAT correction map, since we know that the dynamics system works fine in warmer weather; the IAT correction map will let me globally dial back the WGDC map in large chunks.

I'll check that out this weekend and email you out a base map to try out.

Though... I'll say this, it does appear that you're on the border line of creep if it's effectively knocked out 50-60% of the WGDC and it's still overshooting your boost targets.

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
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Old 01-27-2006, 08:23 PM   #14
Uncle Scotty
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...my 16G LOVED cold weather
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Old 01-31-2006, 01:50 PM   #15
RiftsWRX
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Ray: Check your email.

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Old 01-31-2006, 02:06 PM   #16
Zumble
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Just checked email. Flashed it and dynoed.. My car is now making 420whp.. thanks Jorge..












Okay, so I lied. Thanks for following up with me. I'll flash it tonight.

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Originally Posted by RiftsWRX
Ray: Check your email.

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com
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