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Old 01-29-2006, 04:54 PM   #1
turbo98
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Default To swap or to rebuild for power?

Ok, here's my dilema(sp?)....I have around $3800 to spend including labor. Would it be more COST effecient to build a 2.5 block or to swap in a ej20t or just buy a sti block? I need pros and cons on each or suggestions. I don't need critism on not doing it myself because if I had the tools I would...at least I would try....Thanks in advance....


And this is going in a 2000 2.5rs...
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Old 01-30-2006, 11:03 AM   #2
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Firstly it depends on where you want to go with the car. An ej20t will get you get you initial speed but afterwards it has little potential in comparison to the ej25t sti motor or a built rs motor due to its lack of displacement. In my opinion i would go with sti block or get a pre built block from cobbtuning.com. But if you build your 2.5 rs for big boost and get some sti heads it should be just as good or better i dont see why not.

Also bump for someone who knows more.
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Old 01-30-2006, 11:26 AM   #3
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assuming you are already a turboed 2.5RS...?
how much do you like tuning a standalone...?
how much power are in your goals?
does reliability matter much?
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Old 01-30-2006, 04:27 PM   #4
turbo98
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Reliability is number one in my eyes, this will be my dd and my weekend warrior. My car is not turboed, I believe I want to build the motor first then turbo it later. I'm currently spraying. The $3800 is my tax return. I was planning on building the motor and then buying a turbo kit. This why I am open for suggestions. Most of the suby owners local are telling me just to swap in an ej20t, motor only, and just put some basic mods on it and call it a day. My goal would be 250awhp, which with standalone, is easily reachable...
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Old 01-31-2006, 07:08 PM   #5
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Also, if I got an ej20t, which subframe do I need?
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Old 01-31-2006, 07:47 PM   #6
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figure out what it is you want, you want N/A, or forced induction? and just build the car the first time, don't ass a turbo after you have everything "done", thats just going to be a pain in the ass.
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Old 01-31-2006, 08:26 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWX
figure out what it is you want, you want N/A, or forced induction? and just build the car the first time, don't ass a turbo after you have everything "done", thats just going to be a pain in the ass.
I agree because you'll want to run around a 8.5:1 compression for a turbo, but without a turbo, a motor with that low compression will not make any power or torque...

If you're gonna turbo, just go for it from the begining. You can easily attain 250whp with an ej20 and have it run very reliably. That would be the cheapest way. Good luck
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Old 01-31-2006, 11:01 PM   #8
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I mean that I was going to build my 2.5 block for boost...i.e. forged internals, low compression, head studs, cometic gasket....
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Old 02-01-2006, 04:21 AM   #9
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just a word or two of encouragement to do it yourself, if you have a place to do the mechanical part (like a friends house with tools) if you have everything the mechanical part can be done in a few days. then the only tools youll need are wiring diagrams, wire strippers, and a soldering gun
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Old 02-01-2006, 12:19 PM   #10
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hmmm FWIW I would save a lil more and just do a V7 swap...
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Old 02-01-2006, 12:44 PM   #11
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I hate to say it but you will need a lot more than $3800 to do anything your looking to do. Your tranz will definetly not hold up to that whp. Your clutch-flywheel will just barly beable to work that hp without slipping all day ( if its not already worn ) Laybor would be a great cost in this matter as well $1500 on the way cheep side, we are talking like 30+ hours at least. Read the threads below to get and idea of what has been discussed with others.......it aint a simple or cheep matter

PM SurfRS he is thinking of doing the same thing as you I sent him an extencive PM on what and costs to do it....he may still have it laying about..........Good luck

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=915714

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=853746

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=841613
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Old 02-01-2006, 01:17 PM   #12
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hmmm FWIW I would save a lil more and just do a V7 swap... I think that in the end you'll have a much stronger platform. Not to mention the resale will be a lil stronger with a JDM motor.
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Old 02-01-2006, 01:18 PM   #13
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^^^ wow thats strange...
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Old 02-01-2006, 01:38 PM   #14
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Even if you do your own labor, $3800 is barely going to get you in the door, either way. You will easily pay that much in parts if you were going to do a WRX swap, or use an EJ257 STI block and a turbo kit. Realistically, you need twice $3800 to be on the safe side.

As a stop-gap, if your car is currently dead, get an EJ257 STi shortblock and replace yours (if that's the problem). I know a couple of guys who have run around with turbo blocks for up to a year before they could afford to buy the turbo kit to bring out the potential of the engine. Lower compression on NA is not what everyone makes it out to be. I think most people really have no understanding of CR's and what is going on. For years Porsche ran 7.5-8.5:1 CR on their NA cars...
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Old 02-01-2006, 06:44 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Monson
Even if you do your own labor, $3800 is barely going to get you in the door, either way. You will easily pay that much in parts if you were going to do a WRX swap, or use an EJ257 STI block and a turbo kit. Realistically, you need twice $3800 to be on the safe side.

As a stop-gap, if your car is currently dead, get an EJ257 STi shortblock and replace yours (if that's the problem). I know a couple of guys who have run around with turbo blocks for up to a year before they could afford to buy the turbo kit to bring out the potential of the engine. Lower compression on NA is not what everyone makes it out to be. I think most people really have no understanding of CR's and what is going on. For years Porsche ran 7.5-8.5:1 CR on their NA cars...
ya you can do it, its just going to be a dog. but this is from my experince with what I know, old school cars.
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Old 02-02-2006, 08:25 PM   #16
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Does the sti block bolt into my chassis without any modifications?
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Old 02-03-2006, 12:44 PM   #17
dangerousatom
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Yes for the most part:

You will need a turbo crossmember IE.... from a WRX-STi-Trubo Legacy (maybe Turbo Baja?) to accomidate the downpipe. After that I know of no other modds needed
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Old 02-03-2006, 01:12 PM   #18
turbo98
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Well, to save time and money, couldn't I have a custom dp made to accomodate my crossmember?
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Old 02-03-2006, 04:42 PM   #19
dangerousatom
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custom DP will run as much as a used rilly good one.....I got a Turboxs 4" bell mouth for $150 A custom DP will run you atleast that with nice flanges and a sensor bung.

Crossmembers can be had fairly easy and cheeper than the DP, you just got to find one at a junk yard or ask arround, somebody always knows somebody else
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Old 02-03-2006, 05:56 PM   #20
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well, you are looking at a mixed bag of things.

there are engine swapper shops that can have a ej205 (2002-2004 wrx engine) in your car for about 4.5K or so. bone stock its 167awhp. with a bit of piping and tuning (and a little more money ~$1000 or such), it will be close to 230awhp.

you'll pass obd2, and have oem relability. turbine upgrades, boost upping, its all there. i dont know what the highest reliable setup is on one of those motors because i dont have one. but its probably close to your idea of 250awhp.

pop the block, you can always go 2.5L sti shortblock, or the big power screamer EJ207 motor that everyone wants.

if your current 4.11 gearbox is in good shape, keep it. he'll just hang out. no matter what you do, dont run the 3.9/3.54 usa wrx gearbox (unless you like to accelerate slowly). its a dog on ratios. arguably stronger by a hair, and arguably not.

since you are having everything done i woudl suggest usdm 205. if you were closeby to a JDM knowledgable shop.............there are much options that would open up.
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Old 02-04-2006, 01:57 AM   #21
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USDM WRX is the easiest to go but budget of $3800 is kinda low. unless if you could find a front clip of a wrx for $3000. building a N/A motor is going to cost alot of money.. (crank rod pistons sleeve ) sleeve alone cost about $1000 (including labor). let me try to give you a run down on parts and labor.

wrx motor $2000 wiring harness cost about $2500-$3000 (new) labor $1500 including installing wiring harness and engine. you should keep push type RS tranny.. which holds fine.. (only to stock set up) need to upgrade your clutch. fuel pump. (don't forget fuel pump controller) its alot of work.. so try to find a front clip of a wrx.. and just swap parts.
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Old 02-04-2006, 03:20 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swapstar
well, you are looking at a mixed bag of things.

there are engine swapper shops that can have a ej205 (2002-2004 wrx engine) in your car for about 4.5K or so. bone stock its 167awhp. with a bit of piping and tuning (and a little more money ~$1000 or such), it will be close to 230awhp.

you'll pass obd2, and have oem relability. turbine upgrades, boost upping, its all there. i dont know what the highest reliable setup is on one of those motors because i dont have one. but its probably close to your idea of 250awhp.

pop the block, you can always go 2.5L sti shortblock, or the big power screamer EJ207 motor that everyone wants.

if your current 4.11 gearbox is in good shape, keep it. he'll just hang out. no matter what you do, dont run the 3.9/3.54 usa wrx gearbox (unless you like to accelerate slowly). its a dog on ratios. arguably stronger by a hair, and arguably not.

since you are having everything done i woudl suggest usdm 205. if you were closeby to a JDM knowledgable shop.............there are much options that would open up.
this man knows what he is saying but you can run an Ej205 @ about 265ish WHP on 93 pretty damn safely.

I love my USDM WRX swap with my stock RS trans.....it surpised the hell out of a WRX owner with a stage 2 on the freeway

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=880061 if you want an idea of what you'll need
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Old 02-04-2006, 04:21 AM   #23
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265 wheel makes sense. ive seen 300+, but i have no idea of their reliabilty. USDM wrx is completely foreign to me.
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Old 02-04-2006, 04:55 AM   #24
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i know of a few at 300WHP on 93 that are daily driven and never exploded however if it was my car i wouldn't push it quite that hard every day
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Old 02-04-2006, 07:25 PM   #25
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alot of people here pushes.. 300WHP TRTrex pushes 300whp with 1820 front mount.. and utec..on his wrx its awesome.. he baby it.. but still drives rough.. when he wants.. only thing is his tranny.. is about to go.. but the motor is very reliable..
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