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Old 01-29-2006, 07:45 PM   #1
fragment
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Default Disagreement between Hydra WBO2 and LM-1

In the process of fine tuning my Hydra fuel map, I thought I'd install my LM-1 in the exhaust behind the Hydra WBO2. I recalibrated both in free air before checking them against each other. The LM-1 calibration is automatic, and I set the WEGO grad cal to 166 to get a 20.8 AFR in free air.

I was very surprised at how far apart the two were in operation. At steady cruise my Hydra shows 14.5 (where I set it so I don't think the sensor is creeping) but my LM-1 shows 13.7. I'm running my Hydra in open loop fueling mode right now. I tuned the map with autotune and smoothed, and was pretty happy with the results, but when I eliminated the cat, I was getting a stronger fuel smell then I expected; hence the comparison.

My WEGO zero cal is at 126 and the grad cal is at 166. Does this indicate the zero cal is off? Or maybe a bad sensor?
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Old 01-29-2006, 09:53 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fragment
In the process of fine tuning my Hydra fuel map, I thought I'd install my LM-1 in the exhaust behind the Hydra WBO2. I recalibrated both in free air before checking them against each other. The LM-1 calibration is automatic, and I set the WEGO grad cal to 166 to get a 20.8 AFR in free air.

I was very surprised at how far apart the two were in operation. At steady cruise my Hydra shows 14.5 (where I set it so I don't think the sensor is creeping) but my LM-1 shows 13.7. I'm running my Hydra in open loop fueling mode right now. I tuned the map with autotune and smoothed, and was pretty happy with the results, but when I eliminated the cat, I was getting a stronger fuel smell then I expected; hence the comparison.

My WEGO zero cal is at 126 and the grad cal is at 166. Does this indicate the zero cal is off? Or maybe a bad sensor?
In many cases the difference is due to a reference voltage problem, not sensor accuracy.

When installing an AEM EMS for example, one mandatory step is to calibrate the EMS to the voltage output by the WB. This is done by matching the WB AFR shown by the WB box itself against the detected input at the EMS. One reason I don't like the LM-1 is that, to my knowledge, it does not allow you to do this calibration step manually. My favorite system, the Techedge, has this capability.
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Old 01-30-2006, 01:54 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fragment
...I was very surprised at how far apart the two were in operation. At steady cruise my Hydra shows 14.5 (where I set it so I don't think the sensor is creeping) but my LM-1 shows 13.7....
Are you reading the output of the LM-1 via the analog outs or digitally via the serial data (PC or XD-1)?
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Old 01-30-2006, 01:56 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R4ND0M_AX3
Are you reading the output of the LM-1 via the analog outs or digitally via the serial data (PC or XD-1)?
In this case, I was reading from the LM-1 controller display. I only use the serial input with UTEC's or Cobb
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Old 01-30-2006, 02:10 PM   #5
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It's a good experiment but ...

Calibration and probe placement are pretty important. The only reason I believe my Hydra WB probe is calibrated correctly, is that when it reads leaner than 14.7, that's the way the engine behaves. Exhaust leaks have also affected my WB readings--tighten things up and all the sudden your running rich.
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Old 01-30-2006, 02:27 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by bboy
The only reason I believe my Hydra WB probe is calibrated correctly, is that when it reads leaner than 14.7, that's the way the engine behaves.
Ditto.
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Old 01-30-2006, 03:00 PM   #7
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Well, I hear you about leaks and probe placement but the LM-1 is reading richer than the Hydra, and its downstream of the Hydra. The Hydra probe is in the bottom of the TXS downpipe, and the LM-1 is at the back of the "race pipe". So if it was a leak at the downpipe/race pipe joint, the LM-1 would be leaner.

And to me, being as subjective as "when its lean it runs that way" largely obviates the use of a WB02 in the first place. But if I was pressed, I'd say my car is similar; when I see an AFR of 15:1 or so, it falls on its face so to speak.

When trying to tune for power without a dyno, things like absolute AFR's are kind of important ...
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Old 01-30-2006, 03:27 PM   #8
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Well, you could always try to get a third opinion to confirm which is correct.

My LM-1 is spot on when cruising. It reads right at 14.5 to 14.7. Worked fine in my previous car as well.
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Old 01-30-2006, 05:43 PM   #9
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I'm experiencing similar issue...

I've been running at Txs Tuner for a few months now (placed about 2 inches post turbo - in the bell mouth) and recently installed the hydra and wideband in the rear 02 sensor housing. When driving around w/ the stock ecu and utec the tuner reads 14.6-14.8 at cruise and idle...

With the Hydra now I am seeing its wideband consistantly in the 14.5 range while at cruise and idle while the Tuner will be in the mid 15s and even a bit higher. If I get on it a little more (say 30% tps) they get to about within 0.4:1 of each other. Its just surprising to see the Hydra reading richer further down the exhaust system.

The WEGO was calibrated to 20.8 free air then installed in an invidia downpipe.

Throwing the Utec back in the Tuner reads at 14.7 for idle and light cruise... So I guess I'm wondering if the 20.8 is ideal to be calibrating too? Or if there is another explanation for the variance being richer further down the exhaust...

For clarity I have Tuner sensor (15.5:1) in bellmouth then Hydra sensor (14.5:1) in rear o2 slot...
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Old 01-30-2006, 08:09 PM   #10
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The number one problem I see with the Hydra WB is improper calibration such as not letting the sensor warm up long enough in free air. I like to give the sensor about 5 minutes in a shop but out in the freezing weather it may require some isolation.

The other culprit has been the rear OEM 02 location. Sometimes you can get away with this but other times you cannot. I've had good success with our exhaust system and this location but other systems I have not. It will read leaner than it actually is when it’s too far back. I can usually tell while tuning based on EGT readings etc. Other WBs may be fine in this location but the Hydra sometimes is not. I suspect this may be due to slightly less voltage being used to supply the sensor. Overall I have never ever had a WB last as long as my Hydra WB (NTK L2H2) and I suspect this may be due to possibly lower voltage and a higher reliance on exhaust heat.

The ideal location for your WB is about 6 inches after the DP anywhere from the 10 to 1 o'clock position. If you think it's reading leaner than it should you should move it to an optimal location. Now if you think your LM1 is more accurate then adjust your Hydra calibration to match it.

I' have tested the Hydra WB against a Dynajet WBs and a Dynapack (I used my personal Bosch LSU4 sensor) and the TXS Tuner and they are all very close. I have also used a WB on a Mustang Dyno and it showed .5 richer than both the Hydra WB and Tuner WB. Make sure you are making comparisons based on data logs run at maximum speed as the refresh rate of the main tuning window is only 1 hz. You’ll also experience similar “slowness” with WB displays.

As BBoy has also experienced I’m confident the Hydra calibration is close as most of the cars I tune struggle to run leaner than 14.7 which is a clear sign AFRs are exceeding optimal burn.

Thanks,
Phil
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Old 01-30-2006, 10:08 PM   #11
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On my experience dont use the LM1 from all the wideband i have used this one of the worst, sometime read ok and sometimes dont read real numbers.
I have tested alot of wideband.
I always use my Motec PLM (the best)as a benchmark, based on this , the others brand that I never have any issue are: FJO, Zeitronix.
On the Hydra wideband I have to say that if you do the correct calibration the numbers are very accurate. The best part of the hydra wideband is that use the best oxygen sensor available on the market NTK L2H2 (very lead resistant).

One of my clients have an Evo with AEM that I tune always with my motec wideband, the owner of the car want to test the new LM1 that he install on the car. With new sensor and calibrated before we start the tuning of the car. On the first pass the motec numbers was 13.1 AFR and the LM1 numbers 10.8 . Thats a big difference.

Try to use other wideband like FJO, Zeitronix or Motec
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Old 01-30-2006, 11:36 PM   #12
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Well let me start by saying my situation is different than anyone elses, so there could be something to that.(H6 engine swap w/hydra)

But anyway, friday i installed a standalone NGK wideband sensor. It has the display and all that like the LM-1 but much smaller and simpler. I calibrated it, installed the bung a couple of inches after the CB to DP connection. The first think i noticed was it was off. So i recalibrated the Hydra to 20.7 like the newest instructions say. Same thing, still off. This was a little worrysome.

Today, i installed an LM-1 in the tail pipe and it reads nearly exactly the same as the NGK. Luckily there was a TXS WB close so i tried that. Same thing, matched the NGK. So from this for 100% sure the HYDRA is wrong. But why?? So i adjusted the free air (letting off the gas down a long hill, zero fuel delivered) 20.9, same as the LM-1 and the a couple of the others. Still didn't fix it.

It was off by the same as fragment. 14.7 versus 13.8ish.

I decided to leave the bottom number, and change the top. With a little more time, i think i can get the 2 to match. But why is it off to begin with?? The whole way home, it was much much closer to the 14.7 in my map, and my EGT's all of a sudden became more comparable to others, and now when the hydra reads 15.4 or leaner the car starts to feel under powered. Where as before the hydra would feel under powered and not running well when it would get to 16. or leaner.

I have never experienced any change in AFR with placement of the sensor. The only thing that can occure is an exhaust leak making it leaner. Cats are the only thing i have seen make a difference in reading. But not much. So i can eliminate that causing anything from being off.

By the way my LM-1 lasted about 10K miles using the L1H1(it was used) then with a new L2H2 20K. My FJO lasted months before it needed a new sensor. The sensor it used was very expensive, and the part number.. can't remember(maybe it is the LSU4??)

The voltage supply thing could be a good reson, but since all 5 wires go directly to the hydra the only supply issue could be with the input voltage. Fragment, what does your hydra say for voltage?

By the way i would never run anything other than the hydra for big power, and this doesn't effect the way i feel about it in anyway.

In fact its amazing how well the car has run at a true 10.6-10.9AFR. Now i can't wait to lean it out more!
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Old 01-31-2006, 12:52 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PERRINJeff
So i recalibrated the Hydra to 20.7 like the newest instructions say

The voltage supply thing could be a good reson, but since all 5 wires go directly to the hydra the only supply issue could be with the input voltage. Fragment, what does your hydra say for voltage?
I'm curious where these 'newest instructions' are that say 20.7? Or is that a typo that should be 20.8? (not that .1 probably makes a big difference...) I'm more curious where to find the most up to date information....

The voltage on my hydra is reading 14.3 and I am also experiencing times where the tuner reads mid 13s while the hydra reads mid 14s... Majority of the time the tuner reads leaner though and is upstream from the hydra...

Going to try recalibrating yet again (twice so far) with the '5 minute suggestion' from Phil although I have a feeling it won't change much as the second time the car had been warmed up then I removed the sensor and probablylet it sit for 3-4 minutes and it wasn't changing from 20.8...

I bet the h6 is a beast
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Old 01-31-2006, 02:10 AM   #14
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I have the Hydra wideband in the rear o2 spot and will soon be moving it about 6" behind the turbo once I get the bung welded on the downpipe. I will post how the results change if they do.

One thing I don't understand is why my voltage on the Hydra display is different than the Apexi`i turbo timer voltage display. My turbo timer lately has been saying 14.0+ while driving where the Hydra will say 13.5-13.7..... don't know what thats about.
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Old 01-31-2006, 08:43 AM   #15
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bboy, jblaine, phil, et al:

Where do you guys have your sensors located?

I'm planning on placing my Hydra WB in the DP bung ~6" post turbine, and my Tuner WB in my stock narrow band spot.....wrong idea?

S.
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Old 01-31-2006, 09:28 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n2xlr8n
bboy, jblaine, phil, et al:

Where do you guys have your sensors located?

I'm planning on placing my Hydra WB in the DP bung ~6" post turbine, and my Tuner WB in my stock narrow band spot.....wrong idea?

S.
That is the correct location, 6" from the DP.

From what I'm reading and based on my experience with the Hydra most of those showing leaner than actual should move their WB closer to the DP. This may not be a requirement for other WBs.

My Hydra WB has lasted 25k miles, two Time Attacks in which we used 30 gallons of leaded race fuel at each event, and about 30 gallons tuning and drag racing. That's 90 gallons of leaded race gas! It was still going strong until a sloppy install shorted out the sensor and fried the WB circuit.

The Hydra WB system has been calibrated against a MOTEC WB.

Thanks,
Phil
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Last edited by Element Tuning; 01-31-2006 at 09:42 AM.
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Old 01-31-2006, 09:30 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan avoN7
I have the Hydra wideband in the rear o2 spot and will soon be moving it about 6" behind the turbo once I get the bung welded on the downpipe. I will post how the results change if they do.

One thing I don't understand is why my voltage on the Hydra display is different than the Apexi`i turbo timer voltage display. My turbo timer lately has been saying 14.0+ while driving where the Hydra will say 13.5-13.7..... don't know what thats about.
Dan,

That's pretty normal because your seeing voltage from two different sources, one at the ecu and one before.

Thanks,
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Old 01-31-2006, 09:41 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PERRINJeff
Well let me start by saying my situation is different than anyone elses, so there could be something to that.(H6 engine swap w/hydra)

But anyway, friday i installed a standalone NGK wideband sensor. It has the display and all that like the LM-1 but much smaller and simpler. I calibrated it, installed the bung a couple of inches after the CB to DP connection. The first think i noticed was it was off. So i recalibrated the Hydra to 20.7 like the newest instructions say. Same thing, still off. This was a little worrysome.
Jeff,

You're installing the sensor way to far back in the exhaust system for the Hydra. Like I stated in my last post this may work with other WB systems but based on my experience with the Hydra it needs to be closer to get an accurate reading especially at low load. Move it forward to an ideal location just after the turbocharger and get back to me please.

I have had to adjust the zero grad cal on some units including mine. At rest before the WB is hot you should adjust this so the Hydra reads 14.7 AFR. My unit was reading closer to 15 with the default zero grad cal of 126.

I had mentioned this before but I have experienced what some of your are seeing so I am not discounting the findings. The solution in every case was to recalibrate and or move the sensor closer to the turbocharger.

Thanks,
Phil
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Old 01-31-2006, 10:02 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning
I have had to adjust the zero grad cal on some units including mine. At rest before the WB is hot you should adjust this so the Hydra reads 14.7 AFR. My unit was reading closer to 15 with the default zero grad cal of 126.
Sounds like I'll need to adjust my calibration numbers...

Before the sensor warms up, mine *always* reads 14.9.
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Old 01-31-2006, 10:19 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by entropy138
I'm curious where these 'newest instructions' are that say 20.7? Or is that a typo that should be 20.8? (not that .1 probably makes a big difference...) I'm more curious where to find the most up to date information....
I've noticed this same discrepancy myself, and I'm not sure which one is correct. The actual Hydra owner's manual from hydraems.com says 20.7 and the Element Tuning Wideband Calibration guide says 20.8. I would assume that one of the two is simply a misprint, but who knows which one for certain.

Shane
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Old 01-31-2006, 04:03 PM   #21
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So moving the sensor is something to try, but it is the DP in the OEM location. the NGK is in the CB a few inches back.

Also isn't AFR the same weather it is 1" after the turbo versus 4 ft? Of course pretending there are no exhaust leaks making it lean. Isnt' the only difference tempurature? I thought one of things with WB sensors (vs. NB sensors) in general is that they have temp compensation. If the Hydra needs a hot sensor, then it needs a hot sensor. But the NGK and the Hydra use the same sensor, as does the LM-1 all of which are known (maybe not the NGK) to work just fine at the tail pipe.

Could it be the voltage supplied to it isn't enough?

What would be a good test, is move it from the front to the back and see the difference. Not from one car to another, but on the same car. I will install a bung after the turbo, like you suggest, put my settings back to their original setup, and see what changes. Should be able to do this in a day or so.
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Old 01-31-2006, 04:31 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n2xlr8n
bboy, jblaine, phil, et al:

Where do you guys have your sensors located?

I'm planning on placing my Hydra WB in the DP bung ~6" post turbine, and my Tuner WB in my stock narrow band spot.....wrong idea?

S.
Mine's in the OEM rear O2 sensor spot.
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Old 01-31-2006, 04:34 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning
I have had to adjust the zero grad cal on some units including mine. At rest before the WB is hot you should adjust this so the Hydra reads 14.7 AFR. My unit was reading closer to 15 with the default zero grad cal of 126.
Interesting, Phil. This should probably be in the Element Tuning Guide(s).

Mine reads 14.9 like x99percent's does.
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Old 01-31-2006, 04:45 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PERRINJeff
So moving the sensor is something to try, but it is the DP in the OEM location. the NGK is in the CB a few inches back.

Also isn't AFR the same weather it is 1" after the turbo versus 4 ft? Of course pretending there are no exhaust leaks making it lean. Isnt' the only difference tempurature? I thought one of things with WB sensors (vs. NB sensors) in general is that they have temp compensation. If the Hydra needs a hot sensor, then it needs a hot sensor. But the NGK and the Hydra use the same sensor, as does the LM-1 all of which are known (maybe not the NGK) to work just fine at the tail pipe.

Could it be the voltage supplied to it isn't enough?

What would be a good test, is move it from the front to the back and see the difference. Not from one car to another, but on the same car. I will install a bung after the turbo, like you suggest, put my settings back to their original setup, and see what changes. Should be able to do this in a day or so.
You are correct for the most part but look carefully at my wording. The Hydra WB is sensitive to the location so I would try that first since I have experienced similar results. In some applications including mine the rear 02 sensor location works. I have problems with certain systems because the sensor bung is moved behind the third cat to reduce the chance of a CEL when using an OEM ecu. For the most part this location is too far back from my experience.

Let me know your results.

Thanks,
Phil
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Old 01-31-2006, 05:44 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning
I have had to adjust the zero grad cal on some units including mine. At rest before the WB is hot you should adjust this so the Hydra reads 14.7 AFR. My unit was reading closer to 15 with the default zero grad cal of 126.
www.elementtuning.com
Could you walk through the setting of zero grad cal in the event that the cold sensor doesn't read 14.7?

I can't remember the voltages on the Hydra and LM-1, so I'll have to put the LM-1 back in and check tomorrow.

Also, I noticed a *very* slight difference in the mounting depth of the two because the bungs are different. Any chance that different shrouding would skew readings?

Steve
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