Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Saturday November 22, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Water/Methanol Injection, Nitrous & Intercooler Cooling

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-08-2006, 01:52 PM   #1
DonkeyPunch
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 18987
Join Date: May 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Griswold, CT
Vehicle:
2014 Forester
Dark Grey Metallic

Default Water/Methanol Injection FAQ

Read if you are thinking of trying water/methanol injection... Cliff Note questions have been added at Post #175.... Please read those if you don't want to sit through all this. But if you just read the C/N then whats the point anyway. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...=937176&page=7 Bottom of the page.

What is Water/Methanol Injection?

Water Injection or Water Methanol Injection, is a process by which a mixture or water and Methanol are injected into the fuel/air mixture on the way to the combustion chamber. Water/Methanol Injection provides "Chemical Intercooling" inside the cylinder. By injecting water and methanol in a finely atomized spray, the water is able to evaporate under the high temps of a firing cylinder, and when the water evaporates, it takes heat with it. The methanol also has a cooling and octane boosting effect as it burns.

How does water/methanol injection allow your engine to produce more power?

The production of more power by a water/meth injected engine is not a by-product of the water/meth mixture alone. You must tune for it to get the most out of it. The evaporative effects of the water/meth mixture, plus the octane boost, allows you to run more advanced timing, and boost, thus increasing power. Methanol having the octane boosting effect, you can adjust your AFR's with tuning, and be able to run the same AFR as a pump gas tune with less fuel added to the fuel map of your engine managment. When the system is spraying, methanol is making up for the fuel that gets taken away during the tuning process. You end up with about same 12.5:1 or so AFR with less pump gas added, you also increase knock resistance, and due to the octane boosting effect, you can add timing and boost to make more power safely.

What is Methanol?

Methanol is the simplest alcohol compound, comprised of one carbon atom, one oxygen atom and four hydrogen atoms (CH3OH). It is also referred to as wood alcohol, carbinol and methyl alcohol. It is poisonous, flammable and relatively volatile. It has no taste or color, but it does have a slight scent.

Methanol is used as a fuel and an antifreeze, and to make formaldehyde. It is also added to ethanol to make it unpalatable so that it avoids taxes on drinkable alcohol, as ethanol without a denaturant of some sort is consumable by humans. Methanol was first discovered in 1661, though it had been used without isolation by peoples as far back as the Egyptians in their embalming processes. The name comes from methy, meaning wine, and hyle, meaning trees.

Methanol is used as a fuel source by some, though its use is limited by its volatility. The main area in which one sees methanol being used is in many top-end racing engines. The vehicles in the Indy 500, for example, are all run on methanol. This methanol is usually produced using a fossil fuel as the synthesis gas, either natural gas or petroleum.

Many renewable energy advocates see methanol as an ideal fuel source, with distinct advantages over hydrogen. When methanol is made from materials such as wood, it is often called bioalcohol. The theoretical use of methanol as a widespread fuel source has given rise to a theory describing what is known as the methanol economy.

In the methanol economy, the common fuel is methanol, with non-renewable fuels having a minority share or being entirely unused. George Olah, a winner of the Nobel Prize, is a strong advocate of this path. Advocates point out that in contrast to hydrogen, methanol is relatively cheap to produce, can be manufactured with little or no waste, is efficient to store and can be made from sources other than fossil fuels. Also, while conversion to a hydrogen economy would require major changes in infrastructure, methanol could be phased in relatively easily because of its interoperability with fossil fuels. One can mix methanol with gasoline to produce hybrid fuels while making the shift in economy.

Unfortunately, methanol is very toxic and contains a number of hazards. It is less volatile than hydrogen, but also much heavier, which could allow contamination in the case of spills or tank leaks. A wide range of groups are constantly looking for new and innovative uses for methanol, and it seems apparent that it will have a role in the energy economy of the future. Whether that role is as the key player or a supporter to hydrogen or some other fuel source remains to be seen.

Can you run just water injection without methanol?

Yes, but you will not be able to take advantage of the octane boosting properties of methanol, thus you will get cooling from the water, but no increase in octane. Without methanol, you may not make as much power, as it acts as a detonation inhibitor, and you may not be able to run a leaner AFR as you could with it.

What supporting upgrades are required for water/methanol injection?

At minimum you should have some sort of engine management that can be tuned, I.E. able to adjust timing, boost, and fuel curves, to compensate for the octane boost, and cooling effects, and be able to take advantage of them to make power. Otherwise you can run water/meth injection on a stock car with tunable engine management. You do not have to have after-market intakes, exhausts, intercoolers, or strengthened internals. Although with more supporting mods that already increase the volumetric efficiency of the engine, the more power that can be had.

Who makes Water/Methanol injection systems?

There are many manufactures of water/injection systems:

These are some of the more popular and most inclusive kits for the money
www.aquamist.co.uk
http://www.snowperformance.net/
www.coolingmist.com
www.alcohol-injection.com
www.enginerunup.com
www.fjoracing.com/products/waterinjection
www.smcenterprises.com/subaru.htm
Here is a link to Richard L's Sticky with details on companies:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=958501
Who is the best manufacture to go with?

That is up to debate, but when you choose a kit, look at all the components that come with the kit, or if you can buy extra pieces that you may need, or think you need I.E. Level switches, fail safes, extra nozzles, varible controllers.
Also consider what type of reservoir you are going to have to use, or does the kit include one?
Most companies have some sort of reservoir, some make you use the existing windshield wiper tank, or make you supply your own.
Also read other peoples experiences with different kits as far as setup, price, inclusiveness of kit (does it satisfy all your requirements part-wise), power gains, etc.

How do I know how big a nozzle to run?

Here is a water injection calculator to assist in this
Calculator

Another injection calculator
[/url]=http://www.alcohol-injection.com/for...read.php?t=351[/url]

It is at the bottom of the page...

Here is a volume converter also, to cross reference nozzles. Some companies list volumes of their nozzle in metric, some in standard units of measure.
http://www.sciencemadesimple.net/volume.php

Where can I get methanol?
One of the best sources that some probably don't realize is from wal-mart or anywhere that sells basic windshield wiper fluid. Just make sure you don't get the stuff with Glycol in it...this is the same stuff used in engine anti-freeze. It won't work well, or could damage you engine.

Other sources:

http://www.vpracingfuels.com/vp_01_f...C855#specialty

This one has a comprihensive list of suppliers all over the USA

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=121500

You can buy on-line from these guys:
LINK
www.pricechemical.com/order/
www.powermist.com/distrib.html
www.worldwideracingfuels.com/catalog_c30755.html

Those are just some.

Are there any water injection forums I can learn more from?

Yes, here are a few:

Aquamist's, probably has the most info and activity
www.waterinjection.info/phpBB2/
www.waterinjectionforum.com
www.waterinjection.info
http://snowperformance.net/forum/
www.alcohol-injection.com/forum

How do I know what mixture to inject?

THe best rule of thumb is a 50/50 mix of methnol and distilled water

Some use more meth, some use less. But windshield wiper fluid is commonly between 35-42% methanol, which will usually work fine. The best mixture is proportionate to your particular state of tune. A little less methanol could possibly cause detonation. Mixing it yourself maybe the best way to know what is right for you.

Here is a freeze table for methanol also:

http://162.128.70.44:8080/cs.html?ch...=1&la=en<br />

Just be careful with methanol as it is corrosive, toxic, and a carcinogen. Please be careful if you decide to mix your own brew.

Here is a link to a methanol hydrogemeter:

http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/ezrs104.html

Here is a great how to page:

http://www.dawesdevices.com/howto.html

Can you build your own kit, and how?

You need some basics to build your own system.

You need a pump with adequate pressure, most people use some type of diaphram pump, from ShurFlo for example.

You need nozzles

You need tubing

You need a trigger to turn on the system at the right time, some type of pressure switch...Some engine management such as TurboXS UTEC has a spare solenoid that can be setup to run your water injection system.

Many of the things needed for setting up a system can be found at these suppliers

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg...UseBVCookie=no
http://www.fastenal.com/web/products...l.ex?sku=68424
www.mcmaster.com/

And here is a great how to page on building your own...
http://www.projectwrx.com/modules.ph...howpage&pid=34

Can water/meth injection cause damage to my engine?

As with any aftermarket part, yes it can.

If you are running water/meth injection, you are risking detonation and catostrophic engine failure shoud you system fail or not run at optimum efficiency. This is due to the fact that when tuned you will be running advanced timing, boost and leaner fuel trims that would normally not be possible without water/meth injection. Loss of the system while under heavy load may not be able to be compensated for in time, and could cause detonation at best case, and engine failure at worst case. Be careful, and make sure you use a failsafe, or a tune that retards timing at the onset of knock, and some sort of level indicatior for the reservior, to ensure you know when the tank is getting empty. Nozzle clog indicators are not a bad idea either. They are especially important if using tap water, or not using a filter in the system, to catch impuritiies. This is why distilled water is best for this application.

Can I run without a external intercooler?

Yes, but your tune has to be setup to compesate for it. Advantages to running without a TMIC or FMIC are better spool of turbo and response, due to less volume to fill up. But again, you must make sure your system is working properly all the time, some have experimented with not using an external intercooler with success.

What gains can be made from water/meth injection?

This all depends on the current setup of your car, type of car, and your tuners ablilty. All your supporting mods such as exhaust, intakes, turbos gains are best realized with some sort of aftermarket tuning. The same it true with water/meth injection. But generally gains of 20-30 Hp and 20-30 ft/lbs of tq are common, making this one of the best bang for the buck power upgrades for your car. Your gains of course depend on supporting mods you already have in place, that will let you take advantage of the tuning to a higher degree.

Other NASIOC threads concerning water/meth injection:

LINK
LINK
LINK
LINK
LINK
LINK
LINK

Octane info and such...UPDATED

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biobutanol
http://www.csgnetwork.com/octaneratecalc.html


Disclaimer:
I can not be held responsible to any damage or mis-forture that may befall you or your engine due to the ideas expressed in this thread. Everything that your try concerning water/methanol injection is done at your own risk.

Thanks, any further questions, or things you think I should edit or add, please PM me. I provide this as a FAQ since many of us have or are looking at going this route, and I wish I had some of this info I provided when I started out. I have collected all this stuff as I have progressed, and now it is in one place.



DP
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

Last edited by DonkeyPunch; 01-11-2009 at 03:03 PM. Reason: Added C/N questions to users
DonkeyPunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2006, 04:18 PM   #2
Davenow
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 23676
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: de_dust and Orgrimar
Vehicle:
.

Default

Here is mine from a while back

NOTE* This FAQ is very SMC and Subaru specific, as this is what I know. But it mostly applies to all cars/setups

What does alcohol injection do? It injects a mist of alcohol directly into the intake stream, this has the effect of massive "chemical intercooling" along with greatly raising the octane level of the air/fuel charge. On 93 octane pump gas, the general concensus is that when the system is spraying, you are at or around 110 octane

So what does that do for my car? Well higher octane and a MUCH cooler air charge means a MUCH higher detonation threshold. It will take a LOT more to make your car knock

My car isnt knocking now, why do I care? Because one spot of bad gas can make it happen. And where "stage 2" wrx's last forever, there have been quite a few "stage 2" STIs blow up. You want as little chance to detonate as possible. With alcohol injection, its probably about 100 times less likely to detonate. And if you dont tune super agressively, you can pretty much set the car up to where its almost impossible to cause it to knock in any driving condition, with any weather change

What Benefits are there other than the above? POWER. You can tune leaner, running up to 12-1 under full boost. I run 11.7-1 at 19lbs and never see det. Your EGTS typically go down up to 200 degrees too. Mine are about 75 deg lower than pre alch. You can also run up to 5 degrees more timing and 2-4 more lbs of boost. Want detonation free 21lbs of daily driving boost on a stock STI turbo? You got it. It will be hard on the turbo, but those are cheap enough
Typically I would say running 2 more psi boost, 20% less fuel under boost and 3-4 more degrees timing would be a "normal" alcohol injection tune.
It also has the effect of "steam cleaning" the engine from the throttle body to the exh ports. No carbon buildup on the backs of your intake valves, and the domes of your pistons stay MUCh cleaner. Which means MUCh less chance of "hot spots" which cause detonation

But that sounds expensive to run Alcohol, in 1 gallon cans is about 7-11 dollars per can.

wow thats nuts, how long does 1 gallon last? Well the SMC kit uses your washer bottle, thats 1 gallon. Most people get 2 to 3 tanks of gas out of 1 fillup. I average about 2 1/2 tanks of gas for each alcohol fillup.
When you are tuning your car, it will go MUCH faster as you are spraying a lot more often. At a track day, it will REALLY go fast. I havent done a track day with it yet, but I would suggest you plan on AT LEAST 1 tank per session. If you use a 1 gallon tank, it MAY not even last the entire 20 min run session, or it might, you would have to talk to someone that has run it at a trackday. Best bet, if you are going to try it, is have EM that you can switch maps on the fly. That way if it runs low (watch for the light) you can switch to a non alch injection map on the fly. It may not be an issue, I have no honest idea. If you run a bigger tank, you shouldnt have a problem. If you are going to do a lot of track days and want to run this, you should consider buying the 12L Spec C tank and using that as your tank. SMC will install the pump in that for you if you would like

Can I mix the alcohol with anything to stretch my dollar?? YES!! Many, in fact, in the subaru world, most ppl run a 50/50 mix of distilled water and alcohol. The difference in what the alcohol injection does for your car is small. FIgure if straight alch would yeild you a 110octane charge, figure 50/50 would net you 108ish. I am totally talking off the top of my head, but I use those numbers to illustrate how small the difference is.
Also, if you mix, you end up with 2 gallons of mix. Which means for about $13 max, you get 4-6 tanks of gas worth of alc injecting goodness. That drastically lowers the cost to run this

What kind of alcohol?? WHere do I get it? Home Depot is one of the most common places people get it. The type is "Denatured Alcohol". Rubbing alcohol can be used too! If you are tuned for denatured, and you cant find any for some reason, you can stop at any grocery store, or drug store, and buy rubbing alch, dump it in, fill that bottle with water, and dump that in. I did that just the other day, it worked great

What about Methanol? Works great. Tune will be SLIGHTLY different than denatured
* Methanol might be harder on the seals in the pump than Denatured, so before running it you should check with SMC (or whoever's kit you choose) to be sure their pump and such will be ok with it. I will email SMC and ask about it and update this as soon as I hear back from them

Doesnt alcohol eat rubber? Yes a little, but that doesnt matter as this never touches any rubber

Alcohol is flamable, will my car catch on fire?? If its straight alcohol, and you get hit hard enough to puncture the container, yes it could. But at that point, sorry to say but your car is most likely totalled anyway. The fire will just prevent the insurance company from trying to fix it and leaving you stuck with a car that has been in a BAD wreck and was repaired. If you run a 50/50 mix, it will not catch fire as the 50/50 mix does ignite. At least when several of us have tried to ignite it, it just will not light, so if you run 50/50 you are 99.99999999% safe

So is this dangerous for my motor?? Well if you are boosting hard, and it fails, there is a very high chance your motor will blow. However, this is ULTRA rare, in fact I have yet to ever hear of a single case where it has failed. I know it HAS happened, but so far, not in the subaru world, and from what I have heard and read, the cases where it failed, were bad installs. One guy with a VERY early SMC kit had a pump go bad, but his motor was fine

So how does this work?? Ok So, you have a few parts. This is standard with all the kits, some have a couple differences, but here are the basic parts.
Tank
Pump
Controller
Nozzle
Some kits have a single stage or dual stage controller that sprays at either a constant flow rate regardless of boost pressure, or sprays at a higher rate after a given boost pressure.
Yet other kits, such as the SMC kit or the Devils own kit use a progressive controller. This is by far superior. It starts spraying at a predetermined boost pressure, that YOU can set and ramps up to maximum spray at another, higher predetermined boost pressure that YOU set. The SMC kit, and I THINK the devils own kit come set to kick on at 7PSI, and max out by 15 PSI. This doesnt mean it doesnt spray past 15PSI< it means it is a constant rate past 15 PSI. And you could make it 20PSi if you wanted to, you arent limited to 15PSI, thats just the default.
Some people set it to only kick on at say 15 PSI or so, which saves a TON of juice, but you lose all the benefits of lower boost spray. 7PSI is great because then it will JUSt kick on when you are at part throttle boost.

More details please! (the info here is based on a progressive controller) Ok so you are cruising along, you hit the gas, you hit 7PSI and the spray control unit kicks on. It turns on a high pressure pump that sends the mix down a hose to the nozzle which is typically located 2-3 inches in front of your throttle body. TMIC people usually drill a hole in the bottom front of their tmic and put the nozzle there. FMIC guys typically put it in the pipe, again, 2-3 inches in front of the throttle body.
As boost increases, the pressure from the pump increases, which causes more to be sprayed into the intake stream, up to the max point (default is about 15PSI)
IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A KIT WITH A PROGRESSIVE CONTROLLER> It will begin spraying at a constant rate at whatever boost pressure it is set to, many times this is not adjustable and is determined by what pressure switch it uses. This kind of kit still works, but it isnt nearly as nice and not nearly as tunable as one with a progressive kit. I would recommend staying away from these, and at least getting a kit with 2 stages. However if you are just going to have it spray at or about your max boost, this kit should be fine. However be aware that there is a good possibility of a "hesitation" like feeling at the point that it kicks in, no matter how much you tune.



I live where they only have 91 octane, will this help me out?? In those cases, you are helped out EVEN MORE than the 93 octane people. You will have a lower overall effective octane, but it will still be well above the equivalent of 100 octane. Your power and detonation resistance gains will be more dramatic than the people who can get 93.

So this is like running race gas? Yes and no. Its better than 100 octane(and MUCH cheaper) but its no C16 (which is 116 octane) Its a heck of a lot more economical, because lets face it, you dont need high octane when you are cruising around off boost, or even at 1-4 PSI boost. Heck I drove my WRX around on 89 octane and wastegate boost with no issues for awhile just to test that theory. Think of this as race gas when you NEED it, and cheap pump gas when you dont.

Do I need engine management to run this? Yes, 100% absolutely you HAVE TO have, at a minimum, some way of tuning fuel. Because when this sprays you will go INSANELY rich, like 7-1 rich. That is rich enough to be dangerous and can cause bore wash (this is where there is so much fluid in the cyl that it rinses the oil off the cyl walls, and the rings tear themselves and the cyl wall up.)

I dont want a ton of power, I just want the safest car possible Then leave it stock. There are no absolutes and ANYTHING you do to the motor increases the chances of it blowing up.
HOWEVER, you can make your car a LOT safer than it would have been. If you are considering this as a precautionary mod only, you can leave the timing and boost alone, and only tune to a "normal" a/f ratio as if it didnt have alch injection. Note than a "normal" non alch a/f is richer than what is considered a "normal" alch injection a/f, at least a little(in most cases).

I want m@d p0w3r y0! Great! Some have been able to go as agressive as: 3 more PSI, 5 more degrees timing, and 12.5-1 a/f without detonation and safe EGTS!!!!!!!! That is not the common setup though. Most knowledgeable people will recommend something around this : 2-3 more PSI boost, 3-4 more degrees timing, depending what your car will take without det, and a/f's around 11.7-1. On a "stage 2" (Em and turboback) STI, gains are typically around 20-25whp and 25+ft/lbs of torque. Combine 20whp, 25ft/lbs of tq and a safer running car, and you can start to see why this is such a great mod.

I have never heard of this, I am suspect of something this new Its not new at all. The turbo buick guys have been running this for probably 15+ years. Other racing cars have run this going back past the 60's. Rest assured, this isnt something "new"

The SMC kit is nice, but I want something more "stealth" that you cant see easily under the hood Then something like the Cooling Mist or Devil's Own, or some of the other "build it yourself" kits would be your ticket. These kits are just as complete, but are more labor intensive. Once installed and adjusted, they do the same thing. Of these types, the "Aquamist" is probably the best, but its VERY expensive and you dont really get a lot more functionality for the money IMHO. However Aquamist has a VERY good name for a reason. VERY high quality parts. Does this mean that the $300-500 kits are worse quality? Not typically.

I have an STI with Em and a turboback and I am maxing my injectors duty cycle at 100%, will this help me?
Absolutely. At 19PSI I am only seeing a max injector duty cycle in the mid 70%'s with my alch injection.

I want to go for some kind of stock turbo record, will this allow me to "safely" run really high boost??
You could run 23PSI easily, if not 25PSI, on pump gas, with alch injection. I have a buddy running 23PSI on his TD04 on his WRX with alch injection. He just trapped 105.5mph with that setup. Pump gas, 2.0l WRX, TD04, alch injection.

I am not very mechanically proficient, which kit is easiest to install? SMC by far. It typically takes about 1 hour to unpack, install and get up and running. Why? Because of how it is setup. The kit comes with a washer bottle with the pump assembly already installed. Yes, you get a replacement, smaller washer fluid bottle so you retain your ability to wash your windshield.

Can we use the intercooler spray tank in the trunk? Yes. SMC will install the pump in it if you send it to him. If you are using one of the other kits, you can install it anywhere you like as well.

How much are these kits? $249 to $1000+ The SMC is 499, the Devil's Own is like 349, the coolingmist has an option for 249 I believe, and the top of the line Aquamist is over a grand IIRC.

My methanol setup looks like it is set to come on at like 5psi and end at 15psi. Do you know why this may be happening? I'd think it'd be like on at 5 and end at 30 or something. Is there enough methanol to go around by the time 15psi comes and thats why it shuts off
The default is 7ish to 15ish
This means it maxes flow at 15PSI, not that it stops spraying (you probably knew that). Once it is spraying at full volume it is flowing a good bit. 15PSI is a lot of pressure, even if your max boost is 28PSI, so you want it to get to full spray by then. You dont really want it at full spray lower than that because it doesnt NEED that much of a boost in octane lower than that. Past 15PSi you want as much of a boost in octane/cooling as it can give. Which is why peak spray is set at 15PSI.
If you set it higher, you essentially take the ramp up rate, and make it longer/slower. If 7 and 15 means a 45 degree angle, 7 and 30 PSI would be like a 30 degree angle. Get what I am saying?
I ended up actually making mine come on a bit sooner, so it starts spraying at about 5.5PSI
The low number is when it STARTS to spray. The higher number is when it reaches maximum flow, it does NOT stop spraying at that number.

My car didnt come with a turbo but I added one (like a turbo'd honda/acura) I wonder if this could help me?
Absolutely! Cars that didnt come with forced induction have higher compression motors than cars that came with a turbo/supercharger. Higher compression brings in a higher chance of detonation. And since a cooler air charge, and higher octane means more resistance to detonation, you would surely benefit from alcohol injection, possibly more than cars that came with a turbo from the factory.
Think of it this way.
How much boost can a civic/whatever with a turbo handle with NO intercooler? How much more power can you make WITH a nice FMIC on that same car? Alcohol is essentially chemical intercooling. I would obviously still recommend an intercooler obviously, but this at least illustrates the point.

Last edited by Davenow; 02-10-2006 at 01:24 PM.
Davenow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2006, 08:51 AM   #3
Mr. Sedan
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 68862
Join Date: Aug 2004
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Connecticut
Vehicle:
'11 Jeep Wrangler

Default

Holy Crap Andy...I can see why you took leave...

Nice write up!
Mr. Sedan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2006, 09:52 AM   #4
DonkeyPunch
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 18987
Join Date: May 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Griswold, CT
Vehicle:
2014 Forester
Dark Grey Metallic

Default

Thanks Will, I thought I would give some of the resources up for all the work I have done getting my system setup, and where to find things that can make your system better, also meth sources are valuble also. So between Davenow's and my writeup, I think we cover just about everything. There are some things in his write-up that aren't in mine, and some in mine that aren't in his. So we provided a service. Good Job Davenow, sorry its 6 months late.

DP
DonkeyPunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2006, 11:35 AM   #5
Synth
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 65748
Join Date: Jul 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Southern Maryland
Vehicle:
2004 CGM WRX Stg. 2
'86 Porsche 944 Turbo

Default

Very nice guys, I've been considering alchohol injection, it's nice to see all the info in one place.
Synth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2006, 11:57 AM   #6
pdxsilverwrx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 54935
Join Date: Feb 2004
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Oregon
Default

Thanks, I read them both. Good info in both write ups.
pdxsilverwrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2006, 01:20 PM   #7
samg00dy06STI
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 101736
Join Date: Nov 2005
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: PDX
Vehicle:
06 STi
Obsidian black

Default

sweet i believe DAVE from Portland is running water/methanol injection in his 06 STi ...very nice setup much safer to run this instead of nitrous injection
samg00dy06STI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2006, 01:34 PM   #8
Davenow
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 23676
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: de_dust and Orgrimar
Vehicle:
.

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by samg00dy06STI
sweet i believe DAVE from Portland is running water/methanol injection in his 06 STi ...very nice setup much safer to run this instead of nitrous injection
Yeah but you cannot compare the 2.

Water/meth/alch/trunkmonkey pee injection will NEVER make the kind of power nitrous will.

But it IS a hell of a lot safer
Davenow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2006, 02:29 PM   #9
samg00dy06STI
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 101736
Join Date: Nov 2005
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: PDX
Vehicle:
06 STi
Obsidian black

Default

^^^ totally agree....nitrous injection will give you twice as much boost probably but also it might give u a crack in the manifold..hehe
samg00dy06STI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2006, 02:57 PM   #10
Davenow
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 23676
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: de_dust and Orgrimar
Vehicle:
.

Default

or the floorboards could fall out!
Davenow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2006, 07:03 PM   #11
kkam030
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 88822
Join Date: Jun 2005
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Tempe,AZ
Vehicle:
2005 wrx
wrb

Default

i nominate sticky!
kkam030 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2006, 01:05 AM   #12
rocket468
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 105959
Join Date: Jan 2006
Default

Holly info batman. I even think this is a good read. I give you props.

Another Alcohol Injection forum http://www.devilsownonline.com/forum/index.php

Last edited by rocket468; 02-10-2006 at 01:16 AM.
rocket468 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2006, 05:23 AM   #13
Unabomber
Big Ron
Moderator
 
Member#: 18062
Join Date: Apr 2002
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: I can save you a ton of cash
Vehicle:
on car parts so PM
me b4 j00 buy

Default

My sincere thanks for this information. I did some initial research into this subject about a year ago, but go sidetracked by another FAQ and forgot about it. I guess I missed Davenow's post. I don't have the time right now, but I bust in here sometime and combine these posts (apologies to Usaf*STi in advance as your post will be doinked) and make some minor formatting changes. Then I'll sticky this post. In fact, I'll probably add it to my Manifesto as "guest FAQ" or something like that as the Manifesto is stickied in like 3 forums.

To anyone else thinking of an FAQ....the more you do, the less I have to. Be warned though...they aint as easy as they seem. I'm willing to bet DonkeyPunch and Davenow have at least 10 hours of work behind their posts.
Unabomber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2006, 01:14 PM   #14
Davenow
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 23676
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: de_dust and Orgrimar
Vehicle:
.

Default

My FAQ was posted on another board (actually its not on that one now, and its on yet another board)
I was going to tweak it a bit then post it here but I never got around to it.

Yeah 8-10 hours seems about right.

I worked on it in WORD on and off over the course of a couple days. I also posted rough drafts to generate questions so I could get more info into it. I tried to cover every base I could.


If anyone has any questions we didnt answer, post them and I (or DP I am sure) will do what we can to answer it and get it into one of our FAQ's

The funny thing is, some of my BOLD titles, are DIRECT CUT AND PASTES of things people said/asked me

I would KILL for another 3000 characters in that post. I had to remove a bunch of periods to make it fit in under the 15000 character limit.

Last edited by Davenow; 02-10-2006 at 01:25 PM.
Davenow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2006, 03:10 PM   #15
DonkeyPunch
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 18987
Join Date: May 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Griswold, CT
Vehicle:
2014 Forester
Dark Grey Metallic

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unabomber
My sincere thanks for this information. I did some initial research into this subject about a year ago, but go sidetracked by another FAQ and forgot about it. I guess I missed Davenow's post. I don't have the time right now, but I bust in here sometime and combine these posts (apologies to Usaf*STi in advance as your post will be doinked) and make some minor formatting changes. Then I'll sticky this post. In fact, I'll probably add it to my Manifesto as "guest FAQ" or something like that as the Manifesto is stickied in like 3 forums.

To anyone else thinking of an FAQ....the more you do, the less I have to. Be warned though...they aint as easy as they seem. I'm willing to bet DonkeyPunch and Davenow have at least 10 hours of work behind their posts.
Yeah, 8-10 seems right, it took about 2-3 hours to write, but all the research time I have spend over the last few months since getting water injection, and all the resources I have found. I should just post the My Favorites water injection file up for everyone's viewing. ALthough I think I posted most of my useful links in the first post. I did figure since Unabomber's connection speed right now probably isn't that good, and any bandwidth limits were maybe screwing him, along with lack of time, I would get this info out to everyone in one place. I understand how deployments go

Last edited by DonkeyPunch; 02-10-2006 at 03:41 PM.
DonkeyPunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2006, 08:10 PM   #16
El Supremo
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 38388
Join Date: Jun 2003
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Default

Called my local speed/high performance shop and they quoted $2.75 a-gallon for Methanol. Sure seems cheaper than $8-10 bucks a gallon for denatured alcohol. Guess which fluid I'm going tune with 50% distilled water (.58 cents at Wal-mart). Please correct me if the $2.75 a-gallon quote seems off to you.
El Supremo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2006, 11:10 PM   #17
DonkeyPunch
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 18987
Join Date: May 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Griswold, CT
Vehicle:
2014 Forester
Dark Grey Metallic

Default

Doesn't seem off at all for me, I get Sunoco powermist 99% Methanol for 30 dollars for a 5 gallon can. Which is a bit more than what you are getting, but still better than how much you pay for denatured. I started out with denatured, and it was getting to expensive. Unless you can get it in bulk in a 50 gallon drum. I am not sure who vends that though.

DP
DonkeyPunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2006, 02:27 AM   #18
Davenow
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 23676
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: de_dust and Orgrimar
Vehicle:
.

Default

FYI a lot of home heating oil suppliers can get methanol in 5 gallon buckets. I used to pay $20 for a 5 gallon bucket of it when I lived in MA.
Davenow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2006, 01:49 PM   #19
DonkeyPunch
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 18987
Join Date: May 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Griswold, CT
Vehicle:
2014 Forester
Dark Grey Metallic

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow
FYI a lot of home heating oil suppliers can get methanol in 5 gallon buckets. I used to pay $20 for a 5 gallon bucket of it when I lived in MA.
I'll have to check around here, there are so many oil suppliers in Southeastern CT. THanks Dave

DP
DonkeyPunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2006, 07:14 PM   #20
Davenow
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 23676
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: de_dust and Orgrimar
Vehicle:
.

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkeyPunch
I'll have to check around here, there are so many oil suppliers in Southeastern CT. THanks Dave

DP
yeah I guess it is used as an anti freeze agent or a cleaner or something.
Davenow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2006, 06:38 PM   #21
dads_cruizzzer
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 61724
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Southern California
Vehicle:
04 FXT
silver

Default

This is the first FAQ post I've read on this subject and it's been informative. Although, there are still a few question I need answers to. Forgive me if these questions have been answered and just tell me to keep searching and I will.

1. Is there a 'BEST' EM to run this with? I have a single mode ECUTEK (no high boost de-frost button mode). I am remotely thinking of getting away from ECUTEK and getting the AP Street Tuner. Will that EM support alky injection?

2. Is there a concern that the alcohol will evaporate out over an extended period? My daily driver is seldom in boost. When I do play it's just occassional bursts unless I go to autocross events once every three months. Is there a certain alcohol content that needs to be maintained?

3. The most important question of all - how does this affect SMOG CHECK???
a. Since most smog check stations don't have 4-wheel dynos, they will rev up and check emissions. If the boost doesn't get to 5-7 psi (no engine load) then, the alky doesn't flow right? Is there a danger in that? I assume not, since there is no boost, but will the smog sensors read a rich mix and therefore cause a failed check?

4. If running catless, does this get rid of the unburnt exhaust gas smell. I assume not at idle.

5. If exhaust gasses are colder, will I see full boost a little later than without alky?

6. It seems like you will only save fuel (increase mpg) when the alky is flowing, is this the case?

7. Are any of these question that important to anyone else.....

Thanks in advance and excuse the noob questions...
dads_cruizzzer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2006, 07:40 PM   #22
Ultimate Collision Center
Vendor
 
Member#: 69072
Join Date: Aug 2004
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Peekskill
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dads_cruizzzer
This is the first FAQ post I've read on this subject and it's been informative. Although, there are still a few question I need answers to. Forgive me if these questions have been answered and just tell me to keep searching and I will.

1. Is there a 'BEST' EM to run this with? I have a single mode ECUTEK (no high boost de-frost button mode). I am remotely thinking of getting away from ECUTEK and getting the AP Street Tuner. Will that EM support alky injection? I personally like the UTEC but the I believe the AP Street Tuner can work just fine with alcohol injection.

2. Is there a concern that the alcohol will evaporate out over an extended period? My daily driver is seldom in boost. When I do play it's just occassional bursts unless I go to autocross events once every three months. Is there a certain alcohol content that needs to be maintained? As long as the container you have the alcohol in is properly sealed you shouldn't have a problem.

3. The most important question of all - how does this affect SMOG CHECK???
a. Since most smog check stations don't have 4-wheel dynos, they will rev up and check emissions. If the boost doesn't get to 5-7 psi (no engine load) then, the alky doesn't flow right? Is there a danger in that? I assume not, since there is no boost, but will the smog sensors read a rich mix and therefore cause a failed check? One you can have a manual switch to turn the alcohol off if need be, two at low boost the alcohol is generally not on anyways, you usually start to ramp it up around 10psi giver or take depending on your tuner.

4. If running catless, does this get rid of the unburnt exhaust gas smell. I assume not at idle. You will still have a very similar smell, atleast I have never noticed a difference.

5. If exhaust gasses are colder, will I see full boost a little later than without alky? Typically no, but depends on your tune, you can run more timing which usually helps spool up, but its all going to come down to your tuner.

6. It seems like you will only save fuel (increase mpg) when the alky is flowing, is this the case? Yea, because you only run less fuel when the alky is spraying.

7. Are any of these question that important to anyone else.....

Thanks in advance and excuse the noob questions...
Hope that helps, not sure if I got them all.
Ultimate Collision Center is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2006, 10:53 PM   #23
Davenow
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 23676
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: de_dust and Orgrimar
Vehicle:
.

Default

Ultimate already answered, but Ill toss in my 2c.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dads_cruizzzer
This is the first FAQ post I've read on this subject and it's been informative. Although, there are still a few question I need answers to. Forgive me if these questions have been answered and just tell me to keep searching and I will.

1. Is there a 'BEST' EM to run this with? I have a single mode ECUTEK (no high boost de-frost button mode). I am remotely thinking of getting away from ECUTEK and getting the AP Street Tuner. Will that EM support alky injection?
ANY em will work with alch injection. You just have to tune for it. WIth AP or ECUtek this means getting it tuned. With street tuner or UTEC you can do it yourself. You will find getting help with the mapping easier with a UTEC though, simply because so many more people are running it, and a lot of us have been running a UTEC for years. But either can handle it.

2. Is there a concern that the alcohol will evaporate out over an extended period? My daily driver is seldom in boost. When I do play it's just occassional bursts unless I go to autocross events once every three months. Is there a certain alcohol content that needs to be maintained?
Nope, just keep the lid on it, and it will be fine.

3. The most important question of all - how does this affect SMOG CHECK???
a. Since most smog check stations don't have 4-wheel dynos, they will rev up and check emissions. If the boost doesn't get to 5-7 psi (no engine load) then, the alky doesn't flow right? Is there a danger in that? I assume not, since there is no boost, but will the smog sensors read a rich mix and therefore cause a failed check?
It doesnt spray untill you get into boost. Default for the SMC kit and most others, is about 7PSI.

4. If running catless, does this get rid of the unburnt exhaust gas smell. I assume not at idle.
You will most likely notice an alcohol smell when and right after it sprays. Othewise no, it will smell the same.

5. If exhaust gasses are colder, will I see full boost a little later than without alky?
Not unless your tune sucks. You should spool FASTER with alch injection. You can run a much more agressive timing and fueling map. The spool on my car is almost violent once this starts spraying. It just slams to full boost.

6. It seems like you will only save fuel (increase mpg) when the alky is flowing, is this the case?
Yup. if its not spraying, its exactly like NOT having alch injection.

7. Are any of these question that important to anyone else.....
Nope just you j/k someone probably wondered the same kinds of things.

Thanks in advance and excuse the noob questions...
Davenow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2006, 03:54 PM   #24
Blennophobic
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 25886
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: E. Canada
Location: Ottawa area
Vehicle:
2003 WRX Rally Blue
- sold, waiting for 2015s

Default

The role of steam was only touched on in this thread with the reference to steam cleaning carbon deposits from the pistons, valves and head.

Water droplets obviously absorb heat in the combustion chamber and hence increase the det resistance of whatever fuel is used. A secondary effect is the expansion that takes place when the water droplets evaporate and turn into steam in the cylinder. H2O in its gaseous state occupies a lot more volume than its liquid counterpart, depending on the temperature and pressure. This expansion helps to drive the piston down (a la steam engines) and extends the force applied by the piston on the crank later in the power stroke (this is seen in the great torque numbers reported by members using WI).

But the expansion doesn't stop there. Once the combustion event is over and the steam is travelling down the exhaust manifold, it continues to expand and apply pressure. This causes the turbine blades to be driven harder and accounts for the great spoolup alluded to above, even while the EGT is lower than without WI.

Here is a little info for anyone wanting to read about steam:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam

I happened across the following article yesterday after going to the Autoweek site to read about the possible CART/IRL merger. Good old Crower is using his noggin to make use of waste heat to create steam and better overall efficiency in an engine:

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl.../FREE/60222004

-Steve.
Blennophobic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2006, 12:59 PM   #25
Davenow
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 23676
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: de_dust and Orgrimar
Vehicle:
.

Default

Wow man this thread gets better and better
Davenow is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
water / methanol injection kit -new or used blazin sti Private 'Wanted' Classifieds 3 05-27-2006 09:01 PM
Water/Methanol Injection or Race Fuel or Both ejh25 Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 7 03-28-2005 07:35 PM
Derek Devises Water/Methanol Injection mistaboosta Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 2 11-01-2004 06:52 PM
Derek Devises Water/Methanol Injection mistaboosta Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 0 11-01-2004 05:51 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.