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Old 03-28-2006, 12:58 PM   #51
azn2nr
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no but ill get one if i get a spray setup.

i know im running lean because its logical and i did a VE calculation adn it came out about 13.1 when an exact setup to mine did the same afr on the dyno.
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Old 04-02-2006, 09:20 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azn2nr
i dont have em (yet) and am running really lean. would an untuned controler based kit help me out on a 25% alcky mix??
I would highly suggest getting some form of engine management that can tune fuel, timing and boost curves. You'll get the most out of your system that way, and it will be safer. Even a Super AFC would be better than nothing.

DP
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Old 04-23-2006, 03:33 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azn2nr
i dont have em (yet) and am running really lean. would an untuned controler based kit help me out on a 25% alcky mix??
It would only help in the areas where it is spraying, and it would probably put you into a WAAAAAAAAAAAY too rich situation, which can cause misfires and even bore wash.
Get EM asap, or at the minimum, fix whatever the problem is that is making you run so lean.
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Old 04-30-2006, 10:29 AM   #54
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Gentlemen and Ladies,

I am leaving on a deployment for six months, I will return in November. I will try to answer posts, PM's and keep up with this thread when and where I get internet service. Although being an a submarine kinda precludes getting unclassified internet. So when I hit liberty ports, I will try to check the thread and the rest of the site out to see what I have missed. I am sure this thread is in good hands with davenow, and the other water/meth veterans. Have fun. Remember, drugs are good.

DP
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Old 05-28-2006, 11:18 PM   #55
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Very nice write up! You guys should also check www.alkycontrol.com Julio is a really nice guy and recently installed the kit on my car. Getting it tuned friday
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Old 06-06-2006, 03:15 AM   #56
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Yeah I dont make it into this forum often enough, so if you have any questions, feel free to post them then PM me to let me know I need to come back and answer them.

I would rather you post them here, so that the info is out there for everyone to see, instead of just one person
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Old 06-30-2006, 09:59 PM   #57
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Dave, is there any issue with "maintenance" in regards to this sort of setup? Take for example the SMC, how long are the pumps supposed to last, the lines, are any of the pieces of these setups in need of some sort of maintenance or replacement within a period of time? I'm thinking like 2-3 years, or are these systems a, "use it for a few years and buy a new one"?

Thanks. (btw Dave, you and Donkey are awesome)

Michael
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Old 07-01-2006, 12:03 AM   #58
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Like anything, you need to check them every year and just go over all the connections...
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Old 07-01-2006, 02:49 AM   #59
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Yup, just look the system over once a week or so. Heck once a month is probably fine.
It only takes 30 sec, what you are looking for is any screws backing themselved out of pumps and such, leaks (look for wet spots or dirt sticking to any junctions) and any obvious wiring issues. If you live in a corrosive enviro, keep an eye on the ground point.
My SMC kit was in use for over a year, and is now in another car, still in use today.
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Old 07-01-2006, 04:31 PM   #60
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Just wanted to thank DonkeyPunch and Davenow for the awsome write up on Alky. I have been considering to purchase alky with my up,dp,cat,utec combo as a friend of mine has it and hit 13.1 at the track with his 03'. This was very informative thread and explained every question i had. Thanks guys
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Old 08-14-2006, 03:05 AM   #61
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is it possible to mix nitromethane in for even more power??
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Old 08-14-2006, 10:24 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vipermodder
is it possible to mix nitromethane in for even more power??
Yes, Snow Performance sells it as an additive for the injection mix. There was quite a lot of discussion about it on the Aquamist Forum, but it seems to be down right now.

Haven't tried it myself, but will get around to it.

-Steve.
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Old 10-12-2006, 11:38 PM   #63
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I live in CA with access to 91 pump gas. I have TXS turboback exhaust w/hf cat/standard 2.5" muffler, catless uppipe, ic hoses, TXS TMIC and AP.

I really want to upgrade my turbo to something bigger like a vf22 or fp18g but the big limitation is the 91 gas.

If I go with meth/alky injection with bigger turbo I would run multiple protuned maps, a conservative 91 map and another hi boost alky map...

would meth/alky max out the vf22? or should I go with the 18g?

I really want something that hits hard at 4000 rpms and holds boost close to redline. I dont want to buy a turbo, then want something bigger right away. Any input much appreciated!
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Old 11-08-2006, 03:10 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subenerd View Post
I live in CA with access to 91 pump gas. I have TXS turboback exhaust w/hf cat/standard 2.5" muffler, catless uppipe, ic hoses, TXS TMIC and AP.

I really want to upgrade my turbo to something bigger like a vf22 or fp18g but the big limitation is the 91 gas.

If I go with meth/alky injection with bigger turbo I would run multiple protuned maps, a conservative 91 map and another hi boost alky map...

would meth/alky max out the vf22? or should I go with the 18g?

I really want something that hits hard at 4000 rpms and holds boost close to redline. I dont want to buy a turbo, then want something bigger right away. Any input much appreciated!

If I might add a lame side-note for the CA smog-conscious folks in the room...anyone in CA pass the smogs with alky going? I'm thinking of doing a similar mod with a big 16g, but I'm still concerned about passing the smog when the "man" comes knocking.
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Old 11-11-2006, 03:26 PM   #65
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i know im kinda bringing this thread back from the dead a bit but i have 1 kinda n00b question.

first of all, i have researched alot about nitrous for my civic, decided against it and am selling the vic to buy a wrx. i plan on doing AI but my question is:

What happens when you shift? i know with my EM on my civic (built k24 with k-pro) i can set the nitrous to shut off before my shift point like 2-300 rpm before so when i let of the gas to shift im not still spraying. is there a feature like that with the SMC kit or something? and does it matter if you have a BOV?

thanks in advance.
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Old 11-12-2006, 09:50 AM   #66
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I haven't heard of anyone having a problem during shifts because WI is controlled by either boost or MAF voltage, so when you let off to shift, the WI is also cut off. What I have had issue with is hitting the rev limiter which causes backfire when the fuel is cut off. I'm not aware of any fix for this problem. I use the Snow Performance MAF kit BTW.

-Steve.
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Old 11-12-2006, 11:12 AM   #67
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ok thats what i figured, i just wasnt sure if there was something in the tuning that could be done to be extra safe. thanks
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Old 11-12-2006, 11:13 PM   #68
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Thanks for everyone who has contributed to this thread

Would anyone care to elaborate on the effectiveness/ineffectiveness of running just water?

I understand it would be better and not that much more expensive to run meth, or even 50/50, but I'm curious.

Thanks
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Old 11-12-2006, 11:56 PM   #69
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Wrx and sti engines run a/f ratios richer then 12 to 1 in an effort to avoid knock. The extra fuel beyond 12 to 1(and possibly even some at 12 to 1) is never lit. It absorbs heat from different things, then gets pushed out the exhaust.

The purpose of water injection is also to help avoid knock. Water can absorb a lot more heat then fuel, so much less needs to be injected to get the same cooling effect as a given amount of fuel. This means that a givem amount of it should help cool down everything it touches more then fuel. At the same time, water cannot be lit. Having a buffer that can't take a little air and catch on fire should make the absorbtion of heat and slowing of combustion more even then if a fuel was used. Imo water injection is very useful for preventing knock and making extra power.

Some people say meth helps produce more power then water, but I have seen no evidence supporting this concept. Imo people say this because of one or both of two things. The first would be that most systems on the market have a lot less adjustability/progressive flow then they let people beleive, and in turn are not really ment to run 100% water. The second would be that these systems come with 1 size nozzle most of the time, and even though the manufacturer says the nozzle is fine for every setup because of their magical controller, the truth is that if you run more or less water, the results wouldn't be the same as if you ran a given amount of water. Either way, people end up using these systems with nozzles which are too big for 100% water, and get better results when they try and run 50/50 or 100% meth. They assume that the results are because of the alc working better then the water, when the truth is that the car might just be running better from having half as much water thrown at it. Maybe these people would have gotten better results with 100% water if they just used a smaller nozzle? The world will probably never know since from what I've seen none of the people who claim better results with 50/50 or 100% meth over water have ever tried this.

I'm not saying that alc can't help produce a good amount of power, or that you can't get better performance with 50/50 compared to 100% water on every setup. I really wouldn't know either way. I'm just sayin that I think many people don't have good experiences with water for one reason or anothe, and it makes them think meth or a mix is better in some way when it might not be. Course I've tuned my car on a few different mixes including 100% of eth, meth, water, and 50/50, and I run 100% water.

peace

Last edited by hippy; 11-13-2006 at 12:55 AM.
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Old 11-13-2006, 01:27 AM   #70
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I developed a map for 50-50, and a separate map to 100% water (for AX). I also dumped a gallon of toulene into the gas tank when AX, so my tune was for 100 octane. I saw a 20 whp increase when running 50-50, although that could be due to the far greater time I spent developing the 50-50 map. I saw very similar torque figures.

I think that Hippy is onto something, as I saw very little difference in the optimum fueling maps of the 50-50 vs all-H2O. That would make sense if the main benefit was simply pulling heat out of the chamber and buffering combustion. Still, that does not explain the difference in HP that I routinely see (according to my Gtech). BTW, I also see that with my 18g, so it is not just the stock turbo running out of breath at higher rpm.
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Old 11-13-2006, 02:49 AM   #71
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Thanks guys. Anyone else have input?
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Old 11-13-2006, 08:24 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcblues View Post
...Still, that does not explain the difference in HP that I routinely see (according to my Gtech)....
Did you use the same nozzle for the 50/50 mix and for 100% water? Do you have a single stage kit that bases it's flow on boost? Either or both of these would explain why you see more power with 50/50. You saying that you see more power with 50/50 is exactly what I was talkin about above. Have you ever thought that 6gph of water might be too much at 4000rpm? Maybe that's why 3gph of water and 3gph of alc works better then 6gph of water? Did you ever try tuning your system at it's "low" flow with 100% water? Imagine that your car normally runs 1000cc of fuel at 4000rpm, and your nozzle puts out 325cc(6gph I think?) at max flow. Running 675cc of petrol and 325cc of water is a little different then running 675cc of petrol, 163cc of alc, and 163cc of water. Maybe if ya ran 163cc of water and 675cc of petrol, you'd get better results then 325cc of water and 675cc of petrol? Lets take a look at the water/fuel ratios on these three scenarios though, and see why you might get better results with 1 then another.

Code:
petrol           water           alc               water/fuel ratio    a/f ratio    air/liquid ratio
 1000            325              0                         33%            12                9-1
 1000            163              0                         16%            12              10.3-1
 1000            163            163                        14%            12              10.5-1
 675              325             0                          48%            12                8.1-1
 675              163             0                          24%            12                9.7-1
 675              163            163                        19%            12                10.1-1
As seen above, running 50/50 is a good way to lower the water to fuel percent while running a given amount of injection since it lowers the water/fuel ratio more then cutting the amount of water in half. At the same time, it's easier to add alc then even petrol without losing power because of the stoichometric a/f ratio of alc. If we add 300cc of alc, we could remove 200-300cc of petrol and get the same or a leaner a/f reading(just an example, numbers might not be so accurate). This makes it easier for a simple setup(like any on off kit, or a single stage boost based controller kit) to run 50/50 more efficiently then water, since you can't add as much water as you want and remove the same amount or less petrol and expect everything to be ok. This is why 50/50 is often used as a fix for simple kits and/or a large nozzle, and the bump in power difference between 50/50 and 100% water on a given setup might reflect this. Ie-Setups which are designed to run 100% water efficiently and have the right size nozzle are more likely to see less of a difference between injection mixes then setups which are using the wrong size nozzle and/or are simple in design.

Imo 50/50 might produce more power on a given setup then 100% water, but that depends on many many things. If it does produce more power, it probably has more to do with too much water being injected b4, or that the alc is better then the fuel being used. Ie-If you're gonna run really high octane fuel, water injection will probably help produce more power then a mix with the right setup. Course this is all just my opinion from what I've seen/heard, and I'm no expert.

peace

Last edited by hippy; 11-13-2006 at 10:36 AM.
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Old 11-13-2006, 01:13 PM   #73
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so guys like me in cali with 91 octane would definately be better off going with a 50/50 mix of sorts cause we have crappy fuel and the alc/meth would make that better.

am i correct in saying this???
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Old 11-13-2006, 05:12 PM   #74
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Hippy: I am running a CoolingMist Stage 2, with the recommended (for my 04 STi) 6gmp jet. It is the M3. The Stage 2 means I have the progressive VariCool controller. I have played with the min/max and gain and I find that what works best for 50-50 is to start spraying earlier (5psi boost) and max earlier (13-15 psi boost) and run full 10 gain. For pure water, I begin injecting at 6-8 psi boost and max at 16, still running full 10 gain. My fueling maps were targeting AFRs of 12 for both 50-50 and 100 tunes. Although I have never really done a back-to-back test with 50-50 vs 100 on the same map, the AFRs and fueling values are really very close. My IDCs are never above 90% (mostly low 80s), that is running 18 psi boost (except for my insane boost creep in higher gears).

When playing with my WI system, I have definitely seen the bog caused by injecting too much water to early. I think I have tuned around that pretty effectively.
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Old 11-13-2006, 08:27 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by =LPR= View Post
so guys like me in cali with 91 octane would definately be better off going with a 50/50 mix of sorts cause we have crappy fuel and the alc/meth would make that better.

am i correct in saying this???
That's not what I said. I was just noting how alc would effectively change the octane of the fuel, and if the results were better with 50/50, that could be the cause. I don't know which would be best for a given setup on a given fuel. It would be easier to run 50/50 effectively then 100% water though.

peace
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