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Old 02-13-2006, 02:41 AM   #1
wfofromthegetgo
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Default Why do so many people run Accesports?

I just read the FAQ section in this forum and it made me wonder...this is probably a stupid question but I was thinking of upgrading soon to a WRX and I wanted to know if it was as easy to make power with as my other factory turbo cars. I used to have an '89 Supra Turbo and after that a Talon. With minor mods such as MBC and full exhaust, i was making fairly good power without having to do any real tuning as far as fuel and ignition went. I was pretty much relying on the stock ECUs to supply the extra fuel needed. Obviously, I got to a point where I was going to need an AFC or something like that to go any further but I was at roughly 300 crank hp on the Supra with stock everything.

I guess my question is, if I don't have much money left over after buying the WRX (which is going to be the case) can I still have a little fun at first just raising the boost and getting exhaust.
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Old 02-13-2006, 03:03 AM   #2
23b_Rex
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bottom line:
without em.... these cars dont make reliable power
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Old 02-13-2006, 03:05 AM   #3
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Its the cheapest EM out there.
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Old 02-13-2006, 03:13 AM   #4
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And simplest. Plug it in, reflash, drive.
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Old 02-13-2006, 04:46 AM   #5
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Personally I use Ecutek, after flashed maps or custom tune..it does all the timing adjustments needed..if it knocks at any point..it remembers and retards timing accordingly, then permanently remembers it. The advantage accessport people have is they can more easily change maps and settings, where I run 1 or 2 standard flashed maps, a 2nd one which would need to be triggered by defrost button + full throttle. Say one would be a daily driver, the other a race map. I can adjust some settings manually, take any logs/see realtime engine processes and run a road dyno with Ecutek, but not without the assistance of Deltadash..which I also have and use through a laptop. I don't know if accessport users have features to this extent, but overall it seems convenient and affordable.
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Old 02-13-2006, 05:07 AM   #6
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personally I use UTEC... I would prefer Hydra but its soooo expensive.. IMO, If you are planning on doing more mods, then go with a UTEC...
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Old 02-13-2006, 06:16 AM   #7
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The main issue with just slapping on boost control with these cars is that the stock fueling runs rather lean in the low load/low RPM sites where a stock car isn't making boost, but a mildly modified car is. As a result, even at pre-wastegate pressures, the car can become knock prone from simple exhaust modifications. Similarly, the MY04+ cars have some well known issues in the switchover from closed loop to open loop fueling, and lean conditions are a symptom of aftermarket exhaust and boost control on cars without supporting engine management.

The current feelings with tuning the WRX seem to fall into the piggyback vs. reflash communities, usually evangelized by the UTEC vs. AccessPort customers. The pros/cons of both are hashed out regularly in the history of this forum.

If you're looking for the absolute cheapest way to tune a 2002-2005 WRX, get the OpenPort cable (around $80 from tactrix.com) and reflashing your ECU with the free tools from OpenECU.org. While the process is nowhere near as simple or as well documented as the products from Cobb or ECUtek, you can modify your fuel, timing, and boost maps to make the car run safely.
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Old 02-13-2006, 08:33 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha0S
The main issue with just slapping on boost control with these cars is that the stock fueling runs rather lean in the low load/low RPM sites where a stock car isn't making boost, but a mildly modified car is. As a result, even at pre-wastegate pressures, the car can become knock prone from simple exhaust modifications. Similarly, the MY04+ cars have some well known issues in the switchover from closed loop to open loop fueling, and lean conditions are a symptom of aftermarket exhaust and boost control on cars without supporting engine management.

The current feelings with tuning the WRX seem to fall into the piggyback vs. reflash communities, usually evangelized by the UTEC vs. AccessPort customers. The pros/cons of both are hashed out regularly in the history of this forum.

If you're looking for the absolute cheapest way to tune a 2002-2005 WRX, get the OpenPort cable (around $80 from tactrix.com) and reflashing your ECU with the free tools from OpenECU.org. While the process is nowhere near as simple or as well documented as the products from Cobb or ECUtek, you can modify your fuel, timing, and boost maps to make the car run safely.
So you are saying that there will be knock with simple exhaust mods and no EM? I just put a turboback on and dont have the money at the moment for an accessport. Am i safe?
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Old 02-13-2006, 08:49 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoobySnacker
So you are saying that there will be knock with simple exhaust mods and no EM? I just put a turboback on and dont have the money at the moment for an accessport. Am i safe?
There can be knock with simple exhaust mods and no EM. I can say that my car, with an uppipe and turboback, and silicone turbo inlet and intercooler hoses, was suffering a little bit of light throttle, low RPM timing retard, presumably from ECU-detected knock. The car was targeting 13.2:1 or so at 7psig (wastegate pressure). The real scare was that the high detonation fuel map was also too lean at the same load sites.

Any time you modify the intake or exhaust characteristics of your motor, the fuel and ignition mappings could potentially cause damage or poor performance.

/Andrew
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Old 02-13-2006, 08:51 AM   #10
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Catted or uncatted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoobySnacker
So you are saying that there will be knock with simple exhaust mods and no EM? I just put a turboback on and dont have the money at the moment for an accessport. Am i safe?
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Old 02-13-2006, 08:53 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zumble
Catted or uncatted?
uncatted
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Old 02-13-2006, 10:58 AM   #12
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To answer the original question, for the price of a manual boost controller and exhaust, you can get an AP and have more power safely. Also, you can add mods later and you're ready for the upgrade because you have engine management. That's why my first mod was an AP.
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Old 02-13-2006, 11:22 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoobySnacker
So you are saying that there will be knock with simple exhaust mods and no EM? I just put a turboback on and dont have the money at the moment for an accessport. Am i safe?
2002-2003 run just fine with a exh and no EM. Its not ideal, but at that low level, you will be fine.

Its 04 and later that cant safely run like that
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Old 02-13-2006, 11:44 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow
2002-2003 run just fine with a exh and no EM. Its not ideal, but at that low level, you will be fine.
I beg to differ. I found that with nothing more than exhaust modifications, my 02 was susceptible to boost spikes and was running an IAM of 12 due to low-RPM, low-load lean conditions.

The car was able to pull back timing to account for it, but it shows that it's not "safe" to be running that kind of hardware change without updating the engine management.
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Old 02-13-2006, 12:06 PM   #15
bgod
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pretty much all newer turbo factory cars need em's to make reliable/safe power.

the mk3/mk4 supras bpu'd with an mbc can compensate. so can the 1g/2g dsm's.


ap isn't the best. but in terms of reliability and ease of use it can't be beat especially when shops like tdctuning/pdxtuning are tweaking their own maps.
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Old 02-13-2006, 12:52 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha0S
I beg to differ. I found that with nothing more than exhaust modifications, my 02 was susceptible to boost spikes and was running an IAM of 12 due to low-RPM, low-load lean conditions.

The car was able to pull back timing to account for it, but it shows that it's not "safe" to be running that kind of hardware change without updating the engine management.
What exactly is boost spike? If i am right in my thinking i may be getting a little right now??
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Old 02-13-2006, 03:40 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoobySnacker
What exactly is boost spike?
You should probably do some more reading.
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Old 02-13-2006, 07:29 PM   #18
wfofromthegetgo
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ok, thanks guys...I'll factor in the price of an AP with the purchase price
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Old 02-13-2006, 08:16 PM   #19
David Medina
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1st mod, boost gauge, before anything.


personally, i wouldnt run any kind of basemap. thats why i waited to just get a custom tune by the best. phil at element tuning. im also running a utec.
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Old 02-13-2006, 08:59 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 23b_Rex
bottom line:
without em.... these cars dont make reliable power


Please explain to me how a custom dyno tuned reflash from ECUTek or a Hydra/UTEC map with temperature compensations isn't reliable? What about the homebrew reflashes of the stock ECU? Not reliable?
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