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Old 02-25-2006, 12:47 AM   #1
gopsu
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Default Which maps are safer to run between PDX and Cobb maps?

I see a lot of folks running PDX maps recently and wonder how safe their maps are in terms of engine reliability and longetivity.

I am more concerned about potential premature engine seal failure (oil leaking, etc). Won't engine be put to more stress with more aggressive PDX map (with mobil1 oil)? With proper engine tuning, will engine run as safe as stock engine?
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Old 02-25-2006, 01:51 AM   #2
fogdor
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You are basically asking to have your cake and eat it too. If tuning was as safe as stock, why wouldn't Subaru give you that extra power? Basically, cars break. If your car breaks and you can't imagine being able to: a) fix it yourself, or b) pay to have it fixed, my advice is don't mod your car.

That being said, there are lots of good tuners and I'd personally trust PDX with my car, but one of those reasons is that they are local to me and tune all their local cars on approximately the same gas. If I lived in another state, I'd research my local tuners much more closely. Do your research.
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Old 02-25-2006, 12:33 PM   #3
JRSCCivic98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fogdor
why wouldn't Subaru give you that extra power?
Because of insurance costs for the consumer and the fact that consumer cars with more HP basically equals more wrecks and a safety hazzard because American's can't drive for isht.

Do you honestly believe the new 06 WRX 2.5L engine can only muster 230hp? If you do, I have some prime swamp realestate to sell you. You can safely run a stock 205 to about 260hp (flywheel) with only raising the boost to 14.5 psi on a tune. The car is otherwise stock and makes good power. This could have been the stock tune on a WRX off the lot, but it would cost more to insure it and it might not be as safe to drive for grandma.
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Old 02-25-2006, 01:54 PM   #4
hondaeater69
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let's go state!

and IMHO a properly tuned car can be ever MORE reliable than stock. The stock exhausts on these cars are very restrictive causing lots of back pressure. Go with a custom tune if you can. If you choose to go with an agressive mail order reflash, i would be monitoring the health of the tune with logs monitoring KC DAM etc etc.
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Old 02-25-2006, 02:14 PM   #5
fogdor
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Good points Civic, but remember the 06 wrx's have the same TD04 turbo as previous years, so the free power may come at the expense of the turbo working harder. I don't think Stage 2 or even higher is actually that risky, but when people ask "Is it gonna be as reliable as stock" they seem to be asking for a promise that their car won't break. That's a guarantee no tuner should make, even if they're the best.
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Old 02-25-2006, 02:48 PM   #6
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It is really hard to assign a value to how safe a tune is. We feel that our tuning method is very safe and provides the best balance of safety and power. We definatley feel that our maps are safer than stock maps. Our tuning method is a bit different that Cobb's, obviously we think ours is the right way. I am sure that Cobb feels the same way. When you select your tuner you are choosing the method that tuner uses. You have to make the best decision you can, and the only way to do that is to talk to other people who have used them, and ask questions about their method. We have posted data from many of our tunes here on NASIOC, so you should be able to see what we do, and how we do it. Cobb has not posted data directly, that I know of, but there are some users who have posted their data. I know of a couple people who have done direct comparisons of our base maps to Cobb's.

Jarrad
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Old 02-25-2006, 03:51 PM   #7
bofh
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Keep in mind that Subaru has a lot of requirements that we are willing to forgo. For example, the tune they choose has to work at sea level and mile high. It has to work between 115 and -40 Fahrenheit. It has to run on 87 crap gas without blowing up. It has to last when a idiot floors it out of gear. It has to satisfy the EPA.

We, on the other hand, don't often go from sea level to mile high. Our temperature doesn't have as big a spread. (Some even have summer and winter maps) None of us care about the EPA mandated 2 second enrichment delay. We are able to sacrifice things the manufacture could not. A good tune can be safer and more efficient than stock, until you move from Houston to Denver.

As to who is safer, talk to those around you. I would chose Jarrad over Cobb any day. But he knows Houston, and how to tune for it. If I lived in Denver, I might choose differently.
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Old 02-25-2006, 03:53 PM   #8
shotoyan
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Care to elaborate on your tuning method vs Cobb's? Going from stock to stg 1 has given me a small sense of Cobb's methodology & direction.

I'm going to be running Stg 2 in the coming weeks (I just ordered my APS tbe), and have also ordered some supporting mods that Cobb's tune doesn't account for (APS tmic, lightweight pulley, turbo inlet pipe, etc). I know you can't really answer this without badmouthing the competition, but how would your method be different?
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Old 02-25-2006, 07:52 PM   #9
Steve Nastoff
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I'm with Hondaeater. Read, Reversion. I've just received my PDX Maps, and a lengthy discussion with Jarrad convinced me that i am in good hands. I run an EGT Guage and a Knock Link at all times. I intend to Data Log, and will post my impression of the PDX Maps. Additionally, I ran a Cobb Stage 2 for about 6 months. Granted I'm running a 2 liter but I feel that the Bang for the Buck was a bargain.
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Old 02-25-2006, 07:59 PM   #10
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Generically speaking we run richer AFRs, and a bit more boost. I do not have anything bad to say about Cobb's maps, it is really more a matter of a difference of opinion. Take a look at the dyno plots of the 04 WRX S2. That has AFR plotted along with the dyno plot, which shows you a good comparison of our standard AFR curve, and what I assume to be Cobb's.

Jarrad
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Old 02-25-2006, 10:42 PM   #11
JRSCCivic98
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From what I have seen in Cobb map logs, Cobb tends to run higher base timing with leaner A/F ratios in hopes of building boost quicker. The bad part about this is generally speaking even with a maxed IAM value the Cobb maps generally run 4-7 positive KC values rather then 7-10 positive KC values which seems to be where the "sweet spot" is for good power. Because of the lower KC values (even though IAM seems to be at 16 most of the time) there is some minor det, but definatly not major since the IAM stays high, but from time to time you run into engines that don't like this and this is why you see some people with Cobb OTS maps that have det issues. From my point of view (and you don't have to share it) if I had to make a choice I'd pay the money for PDX's maps. This doesn't constitute a selling point on my part because I don't use an AP for my EM, it just means that from all the logs that I have seen from various people... the PDX maps are the closest I've seen to the logs I'm generating from my car... which has been running strong for 30k miles on it's current tuned state. Only difference is mine's EcuTek and it's from Dynocomp.

So, with the current info out there, Dynocomp and PDX = Thumbs Up in my book for their respective maps on the respective EM solutions.
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Old 02-25-2006, 11:22 PM   #12
02WRX_BLUE
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No, more wear and tear from increased performance.... How safe? It is all subjective......
Quote:
Originally Posted by gopsu
I see a lot of folks running PDX maps recently and wonder how safe their maps are in terms of engine reliability and longetivity.

I am more concerned about potential premature engine seal failure (oil leaking, etc). Won't engine be put to more stress with more aggressive PDX map (with mobil1 oil)? With proper engine tuning, will engine run as safe as stock engine?
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Old 02-26-2006, 12:27 PM   #13
JRSCCivic98
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Well, in the aspect of an 04+ WRX (which stock has the OL/CL fueling problems and det issues because of this) I'd rather throw on a Stage .5 or 1 tune and it will be way safer then it is stock... (if the tune comes from a good tuner). There have been quite a few engines of 04+ WRX give out even in stock form when driven hard... because of this EPA bs issue.
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Old 02-26-2006, 01:51 PM   #14
Jon [in CT]
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bofh
I would chose Jarrad over Cobb any day. But he knows Houston, and how to tune for it.
Yeah, Trey Cobb has no clue about conditions in Texas or how to tune for them.
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Old 02-26-2006, 02:27 PM   #15
bofh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon [in CT]
Yeah, Trey Cobb has no clue about conditions in Texas or how to tune for them.
Yep. A Yankee that has never been to Texas. Hell, my Town is bigger than some of y'alls States. Seriously, Dallas and Houston are very different environments. Something I am sure both Jarrad and Trey will agree on. Actually, Texas has all four climatic types found in the US.
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Old 02-26-2006, 09:14 PM   #16
STirocket
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I just went to the PDXTuning web site and am somewhat confused. I bought an AP for $645.00 about a year ago and am very pleased with it. I was surprised to see that PDXTuning sells them for $800.00 ($799.00). So I figured the price must've gone up, and I was glad I got mine when I did. So I checked Cobb's web site, and nope, they're still $645.00 for my car.

If you read the description of the AP on PDXTuning's web site it's the same description you get on Cobb's web site. So I thought well, they must include their tuning maps. But no, it doesn't say that anywhere. In fact it DOES say you can buy their upgrade maps for an extra $150.00 on top of the $800.00 you paid for the AP.

So my confusion is this, why would you want to buy an AP from PDXTuning instead of any of the other vendors that sell them for $155.00 less. On the surface, it looks like they're screwing people out of $155.00. Am I missing something here?
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Old 02-26-2006, 09:26 PM   #17
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For 799 you get our maps on it. If you take the 645 you paid for yours and add 150 you will get 795. If you want one without our maps we sell them for $645, all you have to do is ask.

Jarrad
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Old 02-26-2006, 09:28 PM   #18
STirocket
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That's what I assumed, but I didn't see anywhere it said that on your web site...
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Old 02-27-2006, 01:25 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXTuning
For 799 you get our maps on it. If you take the 645 you paid for yours and add 150 you will get 795.
Oh yeah! Where's that extra $4.00 going huh!?!? huh?!?! huh?!?!

J/K <- for people who don't have a sense of humor.
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Old 02-27-2006, 09:00 PM   #20
txl146
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I highly recommend PDXTuning maps. Low boost map feels as strong as Cobb's OTS map while high boost map feels noticeably stronger. I'm installing a STi TMIC tomorrow and can't wait to test out a new map that Jarrad has promised to email me for a free of charge since I got the stage 2 map just 2 weeks ago. These guys are great!
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Old 02-27-2006, 09:15 PM   #21
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We are using that $4 to take over the world!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRSCCivic98
Oh yeah! Where's that extra $4.00 going huh!?!? huh?!?! huh?!?!

J/K <- for people who don't have a sense of humor.
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Old 02-27-2006, 10:14 PM   #22
shady
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Hopefully I can get a PDX guy to answer this, or anyone else who got thier maps.

I recieved the maps from PDXT and tried to down load the base map. The AP keeps telling me to turn car off then back on, when I do, it tells me the same thing. Any ideas?
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Old 02-27-2006, 10:20 PM   #23
txl146
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Are you following the correct procedure? go to Cobb tuning website and download the manual. Don't forget about blue connectors...
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Old 02-27-2006, 10:28 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRSCCivic98
From what I have seen in Cobb map logs, Cobb tends to run higher base timing with leaner A/F ratios in hopes of building boost quicker. The bad part about this is generally speaking even with a maxed IAM value the Cobb maps generally run 4-7 positive KC values rather then 7-10 positive KC values which seems to be where the "sweet spot" is for good power.
This makes no sense.

The KC values don't matter- what matters is the overall spark advance. If you get 14 degrees under certain conditions with 10 degrees coming from base timing and 4 degrees of knock correction or 7 degrees of base timing and 7 degrees of knock correction, are you saying that the overall spark advance is different.
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Old 02-27-2006, 10:51 PM   #25
jland67
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I have Spearco TMIC i want to install on my 02 WRX. How much power would a custom PDX map add over the Cobb ots stage 2 map?




Jeremy
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