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Old 02-25-2006, 11:44 PM   #1
gpatmac
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Default Timing advice

I am really hesitant to post this question, but lacking a mechanical dyno how do you approach tuning timing from generally scratch?

Notes:
1. EJ257 shortblock w/ Crawford CP pistons & oem rings replaced, v7 Jap STi (non-ra) heads - avcs disabled for the time being, FP Green, UTEC, 02 WRX hacked injectors, fujitsubo 4-2-1 header.
2. I destroyed the ringlands on my original oem piston #4. The reason I bring this up is because I am suspicious that the timing values I used previous to rebuild were too high.
3. I am comfortable tuning my fuel. As a matter of fact, I bought my UTEC in OCT/NOV 02, new absolutely zero about tuning but tuned it to where my old 2.0 ran a 12.7 @ 104 back in APR 03. However, the extent of my timing tuning has been confined to pulling some around knock spots.
4. I've got a Perrin bigmaf I've yet to install. It's obvious, even untuned, that I am nearing the maf voltage limit (of my current setup) but wanted to have a solid baseline map before I put it on.
5. Lastly, I understand that the overall intent behind tuning timing is in finding Maximum Brake Torque. I believe that generally this is to be done before you touch fuel.

Mick tthe Ginge provided me with a good, solid basemap, however I'm having trouble tailoring it to my car. This is after I've dropped some timing (I know the timing is too low at this point.). Oh yeah, my scaling is set to 420/650.
Click here for very short, recent log - excel format

Here is a log I took at the dragstrip shortly before I broke that ringland back in JAN 04.
Click here - excel file

Caveat: I'm not a tuner. There is quite a bit I still need to learn. Any constructive criticism is welcome. If I've omitted anything, let me know.

Thanks,
Pat
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Old 02-25-2006, 11:58 PM   #2
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It's impossible to optimize spark advance without the ability to either measure cylinder pressure or to measure both torque and knock.
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Old 02-26-2006, 12:05 AM   #3
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I've got the ability to listen for knock, but until I can arrange the logistics, the road is all I have. I'm not looking to set any records, especially in the near-term.
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Old 02-26-2006, 02:19 PM   #4
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Couple more things I figured I'd add.

Exedy Hypersingle (lightened flywheel), Perrin lightened crankpulley, 93 octane.

I'm about to add some trusty xylene and greatly diminish and then add boost. That's probably the answer to getting rid of the knock, then I can begin to ramp up the timing.
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Old 02-26-2006, 11:31 PM   #5
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Which HG's did you go with? I ask because we have a very similar setup.
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Old 02-26-2006, 11:46 PM   #6
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US STi oem. I am 99.9% certain that my CR is 8.2:1.

In OLF, if AFR's are very near target and boost is not excessive, should modified ignition be exceeding that which the ECU wants to run? Again, I imagine this is a loaded question, with regards to Jon's post. I'm saying if you're without the means to validate maximum brake torque (in other words, lacking a dyno) and are just trying to normalize timing to a solid but safe level, is the table that the ECU is using a good standard?

I just got back from trying to tune, and I'll admit that my ignition advance multiplier is still at 8 since I reset my ECU. I know that when I get it up to 16, the ignition advance that the ECU will want to run will vary from what I saw tonight; it was just a question that occured to me.

Thanks
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Old 02-27-2006, 10:48 AM   #7
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Pat,

I am kind of in the same boat as far as listening for knock and advancing timing. I believe if you have the ability to listen for knock, i.e. through a det can device or similar, then you can simply move timing forward until you begin to touch the knock point. Once you've hit that threshhold, just back timing down a couple of degrees. Basically, you need to be confident that there's no knock. That will get you pretty darn close to where you want to be.

My problem right now is that I don't have a way to listen for knock, other than my ears And I think we know that probably won't cut it. I just don't trust my UTEC to do this until I can figure out a way to adjust the knock sensitivity for my hardware/motor.

Todd
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Old 02-27-2006, 11:35 AM   #8
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I've got the Tuna, but have yet to use it's det mic capability. I've got one of those cassette adapters to run it through the stereo but haven't used it like that (I'm not above ghetto-garage tuning..) I haven't tried doing pulls with headphones in yet.
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Old 02-27-2006, 11:40 AM   #9
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I will tell you what I have done in the past. I look a basemap for your car and look at what timing values they used at what boost level. I also look at a dyno for your setup or as close to it as possible. Look at where peak torque is. Peak torque = Peak cylinder pressure. Because an engine is a glorified air pump it has an rpm range where it pumps most efficiently this is a curve that is best represented by your torque curve on a dyno. As this torque is low, adding timing (TO A POINT!) adds to cylinder pressure, adding boost adds to cylinder pressure, leaning out the a/f ratio adds to cylinder pressure. But remember that fuel is also coolant for the combustion process and you should always stay to conservative a/f ratios especially for long freeway pulls where this cooling is critical to engine life. We tune drag cars very differently than road-race cars or freeway racers. This torque curve is a representation of the only two things that really make a car go. OXYGEN AND FUEL Every mod you put on a car is involved in producing more of one of these two ingredients. The way you manage these is really what tuning is all about. It's hard to talk about any of this stuff without wanting to talk about all of it because a complete understanding helps you with each part. Enough said.

Depending on your setup the information may be easily accessable or difficult to find. Look at what you have changed in relation to the basemap you are using and you can usually create a pretty good basemap. This point I cannot stress enough STAY TO THE CONSERVATIVE SIDE! The difference between ringlands and happiness is usually only about 3 degrees. 3 degrees on a dyno may only cost you 20hp depending on your setup. So take the 20hp loss and keep your motor. EGT's also help. You've probably stumbled across the concept that pressure equals temperature. EGT's become an indication of a/f and timing. Make sure you use other people's egt's as a guage to see how you compare. If you are dramatically different, chances are something is not as it should be.

So for a street tuned dynoless map I always keep the boost a little lower than I probably could, the timing a few degrees low, paying special attention to peak torque (this is where most damage occurs) and the a/f's a little rich. In the end you may make it to the dyno and find 20hp or 50hp but the key phrase here is "make it to the dyno". Know what I mean?

Best of luck
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Old 03-02-2006, 07:25 PM   #10
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Dang! I didn't get notification that you replied to the thread. Thanks much.

The basemap I started with was a lot more aggressive than I thought it would be. That may be due to the fact that it must've been designed for racegas.

Anyhow, I've pulled much boost (believe it or not) and added quite a bit of fuel. I've actually added some timing in places because the basemap was kinda low.

Click here for latest log

You can see some others from today here: MAR06(please disregard the mis-shift resulting in a 7400rpm REV!!!!)

I don't know if this is the approved solution, but I experimented with running the knock mic through my car's tape player. I can't say that I heard any knock....we'll maybe once, but not during the rest of those instances.

I'm just trying to make a 92-93 octane map. I really am beginning to believe that those instances are due to engine noise. Maybe I am still too lean for pumpgas. I have added quite a bit of gas. Fuel trims look good. (+/- 4 to 5)

MAF voltage doesn't look like it came anywhere near max-ing.
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Old 03-02-2006, 08:03 PM   #11
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Looking at the logs, it does look like real knock (the 2mar7.txt has a 4 count in it where both the ECU and the UTEC pulled tons of timing).

All of your pulls over 10 PSI have a steady 1-count of knock and the ECU as well as the UTEC are pulling timing, but it's not helping.

I would pull boost a couple more PSI across the board as well as think about fattening it up a couple tenths if the knock doesn't go away. Timing is definitely pretty low where you have plenty of 1-counts.

Another thing to look at would be your knock sensitivity settings since you have forged pistons and those steady 1-counts may just be engine noise. Got any logs of light throttle pulls up close to red line?
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Old 03-02-2006, 08:13 PM   #12
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Yup, I think you're right. I meant to do a Delta Dash log, but logging with the UTEC always seems to take precedence (sp?).

The closest I have to a lower throttle near redline is log #8.

I've still got some work to do. Thanks for the reply.
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Old 03-02-2006, 08:32 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpatmac
The closest I have to a lower throttle near redline is log #8.
Low throttle/boost run:
Code:
                    Load Knock                     Mod   Mod         Mod   WB 
 RPM   MAP  MAF TPS Site Count  AFR  Ign#1  Inj#1  Ign   Fuel Boost  MAF   AFR
       psig  V   %                    deg   duty   deg    %   (CL)    V  
 4105  +9.8 3.8  31  50    00   W/B  +23.6   41.2 +15.9  -2.1 ECU.   3.2  11.58
 4156 +11.6 3.9  30  50    00   W/B  +22.6   42.4 +15.8  -1.9 ECU.   3.2  11.58
 4306 +13.1 4.0  31  60    00   W/B  +22.4   44.0 +15.0  -2.6 ECU.   3.2  11.76
 4345 +13.3 3.9  29  50    00   W/B  +21.1   47.0 +15.2  -2.3 ECU.   3.3  11.76
 4380 +14.1 4.0  30  60    00   W/B  +21.6   43.9 +15.0  -2.5 ECU.   3.3  11.62
 4572 +13.9 4.0  29  60    00   W/B  +21.7   46.3 +15.3  -2.5 ECU.   3.3  11.56
 4510 +13.5 4.0  28  50    00   W/B  +22.4   47.4 +16.7  -2.6 ECU.   3.3  11.43
 4694 +13.7 4.1  30  50    01   W/B  +22.1   46.5 +15.7  -2.6 ECU.   3.3  11.37
 4761 +13.1 4.1  28  50    01   W/B  +22.2   49.9 +15.9  -2.6 ECU.   3.3  11.34
 4894 +12.7 4.1  28  50    01   W/B  +22.4   48.3 +16.7  -2.6 ECU.   3.3  11.27
 4789 +12.0 4.1  27  40    01   W/B  +23.6   50.5 +17.5  -2.3 ECU.   3.3  11.18
 4642  +8.4 3.1   0  20    01   W/B   +8.7   19.7 ECU.   -4.3 ECU.   2.7  11.08
 4374  +3.7 2.5   0  00    00   W/B  +11.1    8.2 ECU.   +3.5 ECU.   2.6  11.62
High throttle/boost run:
Code:
 4115 +18.4 4.1  93  80    00   W/B  +19.6   43.2 +11.5  -2.7 190.00 3.3  12.42
 4079 +19.0 4.1  91  80    00   W/B  +18.2   45.4 +11.7  -2.5 190.00 3.4  12.33
 4187 +19.4 4.1  90  80    00   W/B  +17.0   48.7 +11.9  -1.9 190.00 3.4  12.05
 4219 +19.8 4.2  90  80    00   W/B  +15.9   52.1 +12.2  -1.9 190.00 3.4  11.68
 4340 +19.6 4.2  89  80    00   W/B  +14.9   54.4 +12.2  -1.7 189.50 3.5  11.37
 4450 +20.2 4.2  87  80    00   W/B  +14.6   56.7 +13.2  -2.9 188.50 3.5  11.14
 4468 +20.4 4.3  88  80    00   W/B  +15.9   56.6 +13.3  -2.9 189.00 3.5  11.14
 4547 +20.4 4.3  87  80    00   W/B  +16.0   60.1 +14.0  -2.6 188.50 3.5  11.20
 4636 +21.2 4.4  88  90    01   W/B  +17.1   63.5 +13.8  -1.8 189.00 3.6  11.24
 4803 +21.8 4.4  87  90    01   W/B  +17.8   65.6 +13.6  -2.4 188.50 3.6  11.11
 4930 +21.6 4.5  87  80    01   W/B  +18.6   65.7 +13.9  -2.6 168.50 3.6  10.96
 4714 +20.8 4.3   0  70    01   W/B   +8.9   31.0 ECU.   -2.6 ECU.   2.0  10.99
 4415 +13.5 3.1   0  00    00   W/B   +8.9   49.7 ECU.   +3.5 ECU.   2.6  11.73
Seeing as how you get the same 1-counts with the low and high throttle/boost pulls those 1-counts really do look like engine noise, see how they magically show up consistently at 4600rpm? Wherever the knock count gets above 1, those do look like real knock events.
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Old 03-02-2006, 09:21 PM   #14
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Yeah, but your earlier point about the pulled timing comes back to me.

I'm going to go back and look at all of today's logs and see if the trend repeats on every one. Good catch!

Regardless, I still think I'm going to richen that area up and see what happens.

I am itching to begin ramping up timing, but I really feel that I need to get fuel as precise as I can (and like I said, I've got a ways to go.) I am a little worried about low-mid EGTs, which I'm no longer able to monitor.
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Old 03-02-2006, 09:25 PM   #15
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Damn. On all 8 logs and then a few from yesterday and the previous months, the 4600-4900 region is pretty consistent for knock.

Either I'm just too agressive in that area or the engine has tendency to be noisy there.
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Old 03-02-2006, 09:40 PM   #16
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I think I asked before, but were you able to look at your IAM and KC values from Deltadash? It might be an extra opinion on whether or not you have knock.
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Old 03-02-2006, 09:45 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpatmac
or the engine has tendency to be noisy there.
Pat, I thought you said that you've got a way to listen for knock??? If so, tune your UTEC knock sensitivity based on that and be done with it. From there just tune as you normally would and when the UTEC hears knock, you'll KNOW that it's real knock
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Old 03-02-2006, 10:08 PM   #18
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Pat, please don't blow your engine after all this by being impatient

I'd recommend you stop doing pulls @ 21psi and 11.2:1 until you have your knock detection set up and know what exactly to listen for.

I've no reason to believe the knock above is false.
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Old 03-02-2006, 10:28 PM   #19
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Quote:
3787 +12.5 3.9 95 60 00 W/B +21.2 37.5 +12.4 -2.8 190.00 3.2 11.84
3889 +14.7 4.0 95 70 00 W/B +20.9 38.3 +11.8 -3.0 190.00 3.2 11.93
3916 +16.7 4.0 93 70 00 W/B +19.7 44.7 +11.5 -2.9 190.00 3.3 12.33
4115 +18.4 4.1 93 80 00 W/B +19.6 43.2 +11.5 -2.7 190.00 3.3 12.42
4079 +19.0 4.1 91 80 00 W/B +18.2 45.4 +11.7 -2.5 190.00 3.4 12.33
That seems really lean for 93 octane fwiw.

Also, if you're having questions of knock, drop the boost to 10psi and see if it's still there. Granted the engine is less noisy when it's not making as much power, but this may shed some light. When I was having false knock, it would still show 1 counts with 10psi and 10.3:1 AFR. Definately not knock.

Just using the Gram 5.0 you can tell if it's knock or not conclusively. No need to guess.
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Old 03-02-2006, 10:45 PM   #20
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Victor, IAM is 12 right now. I just redid my trims, so in doing so I reset the ECU. I haven't yet had a chance to see knock correction with the DD, though.

Todd, I just experimented with the knock microphone tonight by using one of those cassette player adapters. I honestly didn't hear anything close to knock. It's actually pretty unnerving doing a pull and hearing engine noise amplified through your speakers, but I don't know of any other way to do it.

Jeff, your comments hit home. Guilty. It's just that the map that I started off was WAY aggressive. I see AFRs of XX.X and know that I need to add fuel. I add .5 and it doesn't seem to have much of an effect, then another .5, then 1.0, now we're making some progress, then .5.....then 1.0 again; all the while trying to maintain pretty smooth transitions across each map. From where it started, I've probably subtracted 100 across my entire boost map. It's making me think my wg is stuck or something.

I am in over my head a bit. I have left the knock correction parameters alone so far, beyond bumping up the sensitivity by one. Unless I looked in the wrong places, it seems that v5.0 firmware doesn't have as much explanation of the newest features. I just wanted it because of the OLF:CLF/CLF:OLF transition control.
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Old 03-02-2006, 10:48 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TypeC
That seems really lean for 93 octane fwiw.

Also, if you're having questions of knock, drop the boost to 10psi and see if it's still there. Granted the engine is less noisy when it's not making as much power, but this may shed some light. When I was having false knock, it would still show 1 counts with 10psi and 10.3:1 AFR. Definately not knock.

Just using the Gram 5.0 you can tell if it's knock or not conclusively. No need to guess.
roger that.

I think I'm just going to make all 3 maps ultra conservative and go from there.
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