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Old 03-03-2006, 02:41 PM   #1
John Vanos
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Default Different IAC or TB with a Hydra for antilag?

This is slightly related to the other post in here but different enough that I thought I should start a new thread...

So, We are running a 2.5 USDM sti in our GC rally car with a Hydra EMS. Right now we are using a WRX TB as we didnt use the FBW from the STI. The WRX TB can only crack the throttle open so much on 'idle' so we are not able to get large amount of air through to really give our anti lag what it needs to give us some boost off throttle (we are nearly 0 vacuum though)

Im a dummy when it comes to this kind of stuff but what IAC can we use on the ver7 intake manifold (using because no FBW) to allow us te set up the hydra with the IAC to open say 25% instead of the smaller amount on the WRX IAC. We cannot simply use a longer set screw and deal with it through the ECU because the Hydra has no support for rotational idle to keep our rpm's down while transiting. Therefore we need a switchable ALS that activates the IAC to crack open a lot instead (when we are on stage).

Ideas? Experience? Did I just ramble and make no sense?

Thanks!
John
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Old 03-03-2006, 04:22 PM   #2
bboy
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I read it three times and I can't follow your request. Please excuse my ignorance, but what do you mean by being "on stage"?

If it's what I think, the Hydra has a little throttle trick for you that's built in.

In part it sounds like you want to increase your idle speed, but only under certain circumstances.
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Old 03-03-2006, 04:48 PM   #3
John Vanos
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Sorry, its a complicated question (for me anyway) and I dont always express myself well on the computer...

On stage meaning while on a stage in a rally

What throttle trick are you thinking of?

Basically yes I want to increase my idle speed beyond what the stock IAC allows. So, I am looking for options that I can try such as changing the IAC or changing the throttle body alltogether to something that will allow me to get more air into the engine at 0% throttle when I have the antilag map enabled.

Confused everyone more? Less?
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Old 03-03-2006, 04:54 PM   #4
PHATsuby
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to stock is a project too

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bboy prob has the most efficient solution, but would you be able to benefit from porting that IAC opening at all to get more air in?

Ben
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Old 03-03-2006, 05:46 PM   #5
bboy
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I don't know exactly how you do it, but there is a means of flat-footed-shifting/ launch-control, where if the clutch is "in" at all, you can set an secondary RPM limit. It sounds kind of like what you want. There are two switches on the clutch, one that trips when you clutch in and another that senses that the clutch is "to the floor". Basically with the first switch tripped the Hydra could limit RPM by cutting fuel. I can't remember off the top of my head where the setting is, but you have to put an RPM value in and turn the 'input' on.

Other than that, you could set up a secondary valve to allow air into the manifold, but I think you'll need a pretty big hole to feed the ALS system, bigger than most solenoids. You almost need a secondary throttle that is opened under some logical system.

Maybe just a larger solenoid would do it for you. At the same PWM value you'd be moving more air, but it sounds to me like you only want this idle speed increase under certain conditions (other than normal idle).

When would you want to activate this action? While moving and between shifts? All gears? Is vehicle speed a factor?

Did you get your Hydra from Phil? He knows a lot more about Hydra logic than I do and has actually used the flat-footed feature.
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Old 03-03-2006, 06:09 PM   #6
John Vanos
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I know other guys running other ECU's have done this, I just cant find out any part numbers for what I need. I've read somewhere that you only need about 25% opening to get plenty of boost off throttle while still saving your turbo from wicked high EGT's. How could I get a larger solenoid? From where? any ideas?

This would be activated just prior to the start of the stage and remain on until the finish of it. Between shifts and when I am letting off is when the ALS will be doing its thing so once the switch is on I need say 25% throttle all the time, regardless even if I am actually right off the gas. Ive asked Phil about a stepper valve but he didnt know of anything I could try...

Check this out: http://www.autronic.com/technical_da...es/antilag.pdf

Hydra can do exactly this BUT the throttle cannot be jacked open all the time as in the autronic ECU because the hydra cannot cut the spark and my rallycar would idle at like 3000rpm!

Hopefully that clears it up a bit....Thanks all!
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Old 03-03-2006, 07:04 PM   #7
bboy
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Yes it does clear things up. Are you using the Anti-lag or Aux maps in the Hydra to control (retard) your spark timing while under anti-lag? So it can cut the spark, but I don't know anyone who has done it.

You need to use one of the Hydra maps to open a solenoid according to load and RPM--basically open at low load and low RPM--and then to shut the solenoid as you reach boost (otherwise it's a boost leak). You just need an auxilliary solenoid that can move enough air for you--say 20-50 CFM. Open it with the Hydra either with a fast relay or directly. To control the amount of air let in, you'll either need a manual valve that you can open or close or run the solenoid off of a PWM map.

Grainger has solenoids like you'll need. You'll have to do some calculations on how much air you want to introduce and then buy the valve size you'll need. There are lots of holes in the manifold to dump air into but you may need to drill your own to let enough air in.

http://www.grainger.com

Search the products for "solenoid", then "Search Within Results" for "12 vdc".

I do something similar to drive a solenoid for water injection, but it's a much smaller solenoid than you'll need. (PWM Map 11 signals the output PWM 10 to open a solenoid valve based on RPM and load 2D Map 11.)

You have your work cut out for yourself. You are basically building part of an antilag system by yourself.

www.omega.com has lots of solenoids too, but they tend to be more expensive than Grainger.
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Old 03-07-2006, 10:44 AM   #8
Element Tuning
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I think you guys are thinking way too hard Why don't you try using the cruise control motor to open the throttle? You can also purchase a servo motor and use that to pull the throttle open via the cruise control cable slot on the TB actuator. Buy our Element Hydra Accessory Wiring Harness and I can set it up so when you clutch in the servo motor pulls the throttle open. The amount it opens can be configured via the servo itself.

You'll be anti-laggin your a$$ off in no time

Phil
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Old 03-07-2006, 11:50 AM   #9
John Vanos
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Would you be able to make that work when off throttle and not just clutch in? I dont see your accessory wiring harness on your site...could you please email me?

Thanks!
John
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Old 03-07-2006, 01:23 PM   #10
Element Tuning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Vanos
Would you be able to make that work when off throttle and not just clutch in? I dont see your accessory wiring harness on your site...could you please email me?

Thanks!
John
John,

Yes, I can configure that for you no problem. I don't have the harnesses listed but they enable:

Anti-lag (drag race, 3D fuel and spark map adjustable)
Launch-control (2 step rev limiter fuel and or ignition cut)
Flat-shift (Clutch activated 2 step rev limiter fuel and or ignition cut for WOT shifting)
Water/Alch Injection PWM (Allow 3D PWM control over WI system)
AUX Map (Enables 3D AUX Fuel and Spark Maps for WI or Race Gas)
N20 (Activates N20 relay to via TPS + RPM or any combo. Cuts N20 with clutch so you can still flat-shift)

It simply pins in to your Hydra harness and is $59.99

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com
240.246.0302
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