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Old 03-25-2006, 05:39 PM   #1
modaddict
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Default what happens w/ injection when you shift?

ok, so im a believer. i plan on getting the SMC injecting a 50/50 water/methanol mix. The two main reasons i want this kit is:
1. mo power!
2. detonation safety
<-------------- here's my tuner if your wondering.

Here is my thought process...though probly not correct. So your in FIRST gear. let the clutch out and stomp on it. you reach 7lbs of boost and the injection turns on...progressively. you reach say 15lbs before you have to shift...no problem. Then you grab SECOND, as fast as YOU can, cause we all know we all shift at different speeds. your bpv opens and bleeds your pressure off and you stomp on it again, building boost again...very quickly. I want to know if the controller/pump and everything has a response time to stop the injection, then start the injection extremely quickly.

If you are a quick shifter...and have a decent tune...you shoulding be out of boost very long at all. My fear is that the system wont be consistant at all types and driving styles/habbits to turn on/off the injection w/ your shifts. We know that in our STi's, all it could really take is one good detonation to destroy our ringlands. If the controller hesitates or cant act extremely quicly, poof; ringlands gone.

in your experiences...even w/ other kits besides the SMC, take me through your shifts and how the system maintains/works. please discuss
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Last edited by modaddict; 03-26-2006 at 08:11 AM.
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Old 03-25-2006, 06:15 PM   #2
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I am pretty sure the kit stays on if you shift fast enough, I think this because I get 10ft fireballs most of the time in between shifts. This is also done with flat foot shifting so it may be a little different depending on how you shift fast. This is all with a Snow Performance kit.

Dan
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Old 03-25-2006, 06:26 PM   #3
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It varies on the kit. If you run a solenoid and its right next to the injector the water/meth will stop instantly with no spray between shifts (assuming when you shifted the boost or voltage dropped below your setting)

If your kit has a checkvalve on the HIGH PRESSURE SIDE next to the injector it will depend on the cracking pressure of the valve. The higher cracking valves such as coolingmists will stop relatively quick, lower cracking pressure valves will spray longer.

If you dont have a checkvalve or solenoid with your kit or if the solenoid is a lower quality plastic one that cant be put on the high pressure side, the water pressure in the entire length of the hose will spray after the injection shuts down.

So there you have it, no simple answer, but it depends on your setup.

Last edited by Coolingmist; 03-25-2006 at 06:49 PM.
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Old 03-25-2006, 10:19 PM   #4
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The logs from my hydra show MAP drop from about 18psi to 11psi between shifts
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Old 03-26-2006, 06:49 AM   #5
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If a WI system can not response fast enough to extreme load change (gear shfiting), your afr ratio will be scattered and slow up your engine response.

When the delivery does not spool down fast enough on deceleration, a monentary over-fueling may occur and slight stumble may result at the instant when the throttle is re-applied.

This is quite evident if you read this link:
http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=185062

Richard

Last edited by Richard L; 03-26-2006 at 07:43 AM.
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Old 03-26-2006, 07:33 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by entropy138
The logs from my hydra show MAP drop from about 18psi to 11psi between shifts
Have you....or ANYONE ELSE noticed any hesitation or lean spots when shifting QUICKLY with a progressive water/alky system?

USERS PLEASE CHIME IN.

It sounds like this could be a major fault in a progressive control system. the fault being the controller/pump cannot keep up with the demand of the engine as rpms increase very quickly.

could someone post logs from their 1/2/3 gear WOT shifts?
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Old 03-26-2006, 09:49 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modaddict
Have you....or ANYONE ELSE noticed any hesitation or lean spots when shifting QUICKLY with a progressive water/alky system?

USERS PLEASE CHIME IN.

It sounds like this could be a major fault in a progressive control system. the fault being the controller/pump cannot keep up with the demand of the engine as rpms increase very quickly.

could someone post logs from their 1/2/3 gear WOT shifts?
Our controller has a .28 ms response time. For all intents an purposes thats instant.
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Old 03-26-2006, 10:04 AM   #8
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I never noticed any hesitation on shifts. If you stay over the point where it begins spraying, it will continue spraying.

But dont worry about it, I have yet to ever hear of it being a problem in our cars, and I have worked with about 6 of our cars with alch injection.

More later when I am awake.
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Old 03-26-2006, 10:22 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coolingmist
Our controller has a .28 ms response time. For all intents an purposes thats instant.
This is very interesting, are you referring to the actual liquid flow change or the the controller output? I think the problem is not the controller's response time but the actual delivery to the manifold.

Let say doubling the flow from 200cc/min to 400cc/min, if it can be done in 0.28ms, you have the best system in this world and beyond. Please tell me if this is a fact?

Richard
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Old 03-26-2006, 10:26 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard L
This is very interesting, are you referring to the actual liquid flow change or the the controller output? I think the problem is not the controller's response time but the actual delivery to the manifold.

Let say doubling the flow from 200cc/min to 400cc/min, if it can be done in 0.28ms, you have the best system in this world and beyond. Please tell me if this is a fact?

Richard
I am referring to the response time of the actual unit (you will notice I said our controller). From the time it receives the signal to the time it sends the output. I am not refering to the response time of the pump itself.

Our system holds pressure in the line at the injector, so for all intents an purpose its instant (as long as you dont run out of water, then it takes a few seconds to pressurize).
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Old 03-26-2006, 10:45 AM   #11
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Probaby I was not being clear, I was referring "system response time", that includes all components as a whole. Quoting a 0.28ms response time (on the controller) may be mis-leading to some non-technical readers.

If you are holding pressure on the injectors, there must be a finite opening time and shutting time on th inline valve.

One more question if I may, does this also apply to your latest progressive pump speed controller? how quickly does the progressive system respond to 200cc/min-400cc/min change (not the controller, but the actural flow),

I think the poster wants to know the actual flow change regardless on any controller used.

Richard
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Old 03-26-2006, 10:53 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard L
Probaby I was not being clear, I was referring "system response time", that includes all components as a whole. Quoting a 0.28ms response time (on the controller) may be mis-leading to some non-technical readers.

If you are holding pressure on the injectors, there must be a finite opening time and shutting time on th inline valve.

One more question if I may, does this also apply to your latest progressive pump speed controller? how quickly does the progressive system respond to 200cc/min-400cc/min change (not the controller, but the actural flow),

I think the poster wants to know the actual flow change regardless on any controller user.

Richard
Richard,

Our systems are rated in GPH rather than CC/MIN (that doesnt matter for this discussion). The system is designed to ramp up in a progressive fashion. How fast it ramps up the flow is dependant on the tuning position of the hardware (the knob) and the software settings.

And yes, I can see reading the statement now that the user could have mis-understood what I have said.

Also, from reading the original posters question he wants to know how fast it will stop the injection and then how fast it will start once activated.

our system stops quickly, I have mentioned that it highly depends on your system. Read my first response in this thread for that answer. IF you have 15 feet of hose for example, no solenoid and no checkvalve it can run for 8 seconds or more, its all dependant on your set up.

How fast it sprays once once it activates depends on some of the same factors. Since our checkvalve keeps the lines pressurized the response time for all intents an purposes is instant. there is always some delay, but none that you will notice. I dont have exact numbers as I have not measured it on our systems as there has been no need.

Hope that clears things up. I think the posters questions are legitmate and there is no simple answer and the answer will vary from system to system.

Last edited by Coolingmist; 03-26-2006 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 03-26-2006, 01:23 PM   #13
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Great, I think the poster is getting an accurate and informative response from us manufacturers.

Until the next question.

Richard
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Old 03-26-2006, 06:06 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard L
Great, I think the poster is getting an accurate and informative response from us manufacturers.

Until the next question.

Richard
It is really awesome to hear from you vendors...your inputs are very helpful and shows a lot towards your products. great service guys!
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Old 03-26-2006, 06:18 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coolingmist
Our system holds pressure in the line at the injector, so for all intents an purpose its instant (as long as you dont run out of water, then it takes a few seconds to pressurize).
Coolingmist,
your check valve says it takes 45psi to open it. So when you set up the controller for a progressive control, you start spray at 7lbs boost, the pump is 'duty cycled' to put out more than 45psi. lets assume we're talking about your 100psi kit. Then when it reaches your programmed point, say 15psi boost, it sprays 100psi into the engine. Im just thinking outloud here.

if this is correct, do you know what psi the pump puts out when you start spraying initially?

I really like the idea of a high pressure check valve right next to the injector, keeps everything pressurized.
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Old 03-26-2006, 06:25 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modaddict
Coolingmist,
your check valve says it takes 45psi to open it. So when you set up the controller for a progressive control, you start spray at 7lbs boost, the pump is 'duty cycled' to put out more than 45psi. lets assume we're talking about your 100psi kit. Then when it reaches your programmed point, say 15psi boost, it sprays 100psi into the engine. Im just thinking outloud here.

if this is correct, do you know what psi the pump puts out when you start spraying initially?

I really like the idea of a high pressure check valve right next to the injector, keeps everything pressurized.
Thanks for the question. From us (default) it will start at 37 PSI or 25% of the pump capacity. The nozzles are designed to atomize at 40 psi. You can easily adjust the output of the pump, both the Minimum and Maximum using the software. So frankly, its up to you.
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Old 03-26-2006, 10:19 PM   #17
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Never had any problems between shifts, or after. I think that when the pump is on and you come off throttle, it is starting to shut off the pump, there is still a little flow there, and when you come back into it, there should be alky right up to the nozzle, so the response is unnoticable and immeadiate. Your tuner will work out all this when they tune. I think most times when I shift fast, I don't even see my "on" LED extinguish.

DP
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Old 03-27-2006, 09:13 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkeyPunch
Never had any problems between shifts, or after. I think that when the pump is on and you come off throttle, it is starting to shut off the pump, there is still a little flow there, and when you come back into it, there should be alky right up to the nozzle, so the response is unnoticable and immeadiate. Your tuner will work out all this when they tune. I think most times when I shift fast, I don't even see my "on" LED extinguish.
DP
thankyou for your reply, its nice to know you havent had any probs. which kit are you running?

im most concerned with the potential of irratic o2 readings as seen in http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=185062 with the progressive controllers.

Richard L gave this link previously and it deeply concerns me. BTW, thankyou Richard L. I havent heard it being a concern on the suby platform, but i would think it is a mechanical problem with the injection system and not an engine conern. i.e suby vs. mitsu. it would be nice to hear from others users too. however, there's not quite as much people that visit this forum, vs. the 2.5l forum.
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Old 03-27-2006, 10:37 AM   #19
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He is using the Snow Performance kit I believe
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Old 03-27-2006, 01:51 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modaddict
Richard L gave this link previously and it deeply concerns me. BTW, thankyou Richard L. I havent heard it being a concern on the suby platform, but i would think it is a mechanical problem with the injection system and not an engine conern. i.e suby vs. mitsu. it would be nice to hear from others users too. however, there's not quite as much people that visit this forum, vs. the 2.5l forum.
You are one of of the very few on this forum who cares about details. Most just ignore them. Never mind. One less thing to be concerned with.

Richard
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Old 03-28-2006, 08:08 PM   #21
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Do you think its the fact that he doesent have a check vavle by the injector? It would seem like 2.5 feet of piping would get presurized pretty quickly, but I guess it may still cause a problem.
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Old 03-29-2006, 05:32 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrxsubaru
Do you think its the fact that he doesent have a check vavle by the injector? It would seem like 2.5 feet of piping would get presurized pretty quickly, but I guess it may still cause a problem.
Have a spring loaded checkvalve may not solve the problem, it is the inertia of rotating mass of the pump you are fighting with. Opening time of a loaded checkvalve is subject to the back-pressure of the manifold (boost).

Richard
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