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Old 03-24-2006, 04:42 AM   #1
Richard L
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Default While we are on the subject of 3D controllers...

This unit has been available for a while and if anyone one want to incorporate it into a simple shurflo pump system and control your flow in 3D, requires a HSV.

RPM x LOAD = PWM (dual frequency).
Each RPM site has Volumetric efficiency trim. Failsafe (all round) is inbuild when used with an aquamist pump.



Richard
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Last edited by Richard L; 03-24-2006 at 04:00 PM.
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Old 03-24-2006, 11:04 AM   #2
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how much does the controller go for?
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Old 03-24-2006, 12:45 PM   #3
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I've seen it on your site before, but it seemed very unclear to me precisely what it does. What does the mapping and interface look like?

Not sure I understand why you need or want the VE trim. If you have a column for each RPM range, there doesn't seem to be a need to trim. I guess it might make it faster to change a whole column at once. ??

What "load" sources can you use?
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Old 03-24-2006, 02:19 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULTIMATE CC
how much does the controller go for?
I can go into pricing details under the manufacture/vendor status starts (1st April). You can check our website to find out.


Richard
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Old 03-24-2006, 02:31 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freon
I've seen it on your site before, but it seemed very unclear to me precisely what it does. What does the mapping and interface look like?

Not sure I understand why you need or want the VE trim. If you have a column for each RPM range, there doesn't seem to be a need to trim. I guess it might make it faster to change a whole column at once. ??

What "load" sources can you use?
The unit is a just a simple stand-alone, pre-configured PWM controller. User changeable parameters are:

1) 0-5V load input threshold to offset "start"
2) x3 input gain adjustment to amplify load signal. Such as Boost/MAF sensor etc.
3) RPM range 2000-9000, 2-12 cyliinder - continuous variable.
4) Individual RPM gain to compensate cam characteristics (max torque band), back pressure, turbo efficiencies range etc.

PWM frequeny selection for slower solenoid valve between 30Hz and 80Hz.

Failsafe.

Richard

Last edited by Richard L; 03-24-2006 at 04:01 PM.
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Old 03-26-2006, 06:12 AM   #6
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Here is plot to show how the controller works.



MAP, MAF signal (load) can be re-scaled, offsetted, steppless resolution coverage. RPM input can read cam angle sensor, crank angle sensor and coil signal. Pre-scaled (jumper linked) or continuous variable.

The controller is self-contained, no pc link necessary. WI map can be updated on the move. Trouble knock areas can be trimmed on each 1000 RPM interval instantly.

The controller drives a PWM valve and not a water pump motor. This will ensure accurate delievery at all time without the constrait on motor inertia and non-linear flow characteristic associated with pump speed/pressure.

The system is suitable for a pre-pressurised water source, response time is 1/500th of a second. No pressure spooling up delay. Perfect delivery in all-gear situations and load transients response.

It may not be suitable for a budget minded user but you only need to fit WI once, why compromise.


Richard
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Old 03-26-2006, 10:23 AM   #7
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ultimate cc

You may not be aware, but none of us are allowed to post any prices in this forum. We are only allowed to do so in the vendors forum. That goes for all of us.

Richard, very impressive.

Last edited by Coolingmist; 03-26-2006 at 10:30 AM.
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Old 03-26-2006, 10:58 AM   #8
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I didn't realise that that applied to vendor as well? I suppose the opnly place allow is the classified section as you mentioned, I have to be carefull from 1st April. I think this is good rule, keeping the technical discussion clean.

Thanks for the note.

Richard
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Old 03-26-2006, 11:01 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard L
I didn't realise that that applied to vendor as well? I suppose the opnly place allow is the classified section as you mentioned, I have to be carefull from 1st April. I think this is good rule, keeping the technical discussion clean.

Thanks for the note.

Richard
Yes, it does. I have tried very hard not to post prices. I know some day I will slip. This is not my rule, this is NASIOCs rule. PM NICK and ask him for verification.

This forum is designed for technical discussion. We are all welcome to talk about our various products and interact with customers, discuss features, etc.

If I am wrong please let me know, but speaking to Nick, this is what I was told when I asked.
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Old 03-26-2006, 01:18 PM   #10
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I have just read the rules again, you are 100% correct.

It is nice to keep the discussiona on the technical basis only.

Richard
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Old 03-27-2006, 11:31 AM   #11
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Richard, so the shape is not configurable? The inputs are the trims, min and max for the load, and a trim for each RPM?

I.e. this would not be possible:
[img]http://freon.shackspace.com/car/ecu%20and%20tuning/wi/wi-capable.GIF[img]

Pretty neat, but I think I'd rather pick up an SMT-6. They're kinda pricey at $390 from IDA, but have no limitation on the shape of the 3D map. It offers something like 9 load sites (via any 0-5v analog, configurable), and something like 26 RPM sites, plus trims for each RPM site, etc. Not sure if its included injector driver would directly drive your HSV, but I bet a transistor would fix that. It is microprocessor based, tuned via a serial terminal, either DOS commands or use their Windows interface software.

For anyone else interested, you can download their software from their website for free. www.perfectpower.com

The intersection of two 2D maps is *not* 3D. There are still many map shapes that are impossible with that configuration. Basically you're limited to first, maybe second order polys in any row or column.

As you said, if you're going to do it once, do it right. I can't say I'm too impressed with that MF2.

I'd be very interested if someone produced a purpose-built single injector driver that could handle analog 0-5V vs RPM, or two analog 0-5V inputs, was microprocessor based, and true 3D tunable, hopefully could hangle a variety of different tach or crank signals. Just needs to drive duty cycle, perferrably at a selectable period/rate, at an amp or two @ 12v. That's it. So far I think the SMT-6 is the closest device to what I think is needed. ARGH. Knew I shouldn't have sold mine...
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Old 03-27-2006, 01:04 PM   #12
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I did say on my previous email that it is a basic stand-alone controller. There are plenty of controllers on the market that will give you infinite map and any orientation. The unit was originally packaged with one of our systems (2s) and it has inbuild error tracking for water flow against pump duty cycle.

You need something like this?



64x load site, 128x RPM site and the above map was done was less than 15 minutes. Price is out of reach for most people.

Richard

PS I made a mistake, it took two hours to construct this map (tracing back fourteen years)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Freon
I'd be very interested if someone produced a purpose-built single injector driver that could handle analog 0-5V vs RPM, or two analog 0-5V inputs, was microprocessor based, and true 3D tunable, hopefully could hangle a variety of different tach or crank signals. Just needs to drive duty cycle, perferrably at a selectable period/rate, at an amp or two @ 12v. That's it. So far I think the SMT-6 is the closest device to what I think is needed. ARGH. Knew I shouldn't have sold mine...

Last edited by Richard L; 03-27-2006 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 03-27-2006, 01:54 PM   #13
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Naw, it doesn't seem to be massively large, but I do think I want true cell by cell control, not just general shaping and limits.

The SMT-6, for instance, has a spare injector map that is 9 load by 26 rpm. Load can be any 0-5v signal, and the software setup lets you configure it. You'd have to calibrate, but it would work for, say, 8-16 psi or whatever. You then also calibrate the RPM scale. There is a tweak for each RPM row as well. Then you enter a value for each and every intersection of RPM and load individually and fully independently. Every cell and have a completely indepedent value and tweaking one cell does not affect others. Just like tuning a UTEC.

The SMT-6 is $390. It may require an injector driver depending on what kind of load you're driving. It is actually mainly a piggyback timing and fueling computer, but the injector driver would work well for WI. It's just too bad they don't also make an injector controll only, without all the extras for fueling and timing fudging.

It just seems like with the MF2 you're tweaking generalized settings. Sure, the output is indepedent for every combination of load and RPM, but from what you have shown it doesn't seem like you get per-cell control. I just want something with per cell, indepedent control. So far it looks like my UTEC's spare solenoid is the best bet, if TXS ever releases the new firmware for the STI...
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Old 03-27-2006, 02:31 PM   #14
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The system can be manually mapped, 8192 cells to be filled. Upload or download maps via RS232. It would be easier if you allow the self-learning capability to work and trim the map manually later.

SMT-6 at $390 is fine for your application, I don't thing can better it for that price.

Problems with utec, the spare PWM output is frequency capped and run on fix frequany ewith variable pulse width. Cannot switch map on the fly until the RPM drop below 2000. Long await form upgrade has not yet arrived? I have not followed utec's progress for a while.

I seriously think you can run a close loop water injection system with fuel and map trim.

Richard

Last edited by Richard L; 03-27-2006 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 03-27-2006, 02:35 PM   #15
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Forgotten to mention. The last chart posted was not from the MF2 system. It is called Aquamist System3.

Richard
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Old 03-27-2006, 03:17 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard L
The system can be manually mapped, 8192 cells to be filled. Upload or download maps via RS232.
Ahh.. See, it didn't seem that was possible... So you generally make your map via a computer interface, but just fine trim it live with the trim pots?

Then indeed, that would work well.

Quote:
It would be easier if you allow the self-learning capability to work and trim the map manually later.
Via what feedback loop does it self-learn? AFR? EGT? How is this setup?
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Old 03-27-2006, 03:26 PM   #17
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BTW, I'd be very interested to see the interface software.

This is basically what I want, but there seems to be little information on it. Do you have a users manual available for download?
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Old 03-27-2006, 03:59 PM   #18
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The system is still viewable from here:
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/sl/plist/pics/sys3/sys3.html

Available for OE user only, sorry. But I am sure you can do more or less the same with some tweak on the source code from a willing controller maker.

The system is very old, when flashable chip was only just available to the marketing. The system was comissioned and supplied to Rolls Royce's Mulsanne Turbo.

I am sorry to disappoint you, I can help you to develop the software strategy if you want to go that far.

The basic map is created by over boosting the engine to create light knock locations. WI injection is applied to those locations, % is related to the severity of knock. All surrounding x-y area was automatically fiilled with a downward progressive water %. When the same site is lack of knock when revisited, % water is trimmed.

It is almost humanly impossible to manually programming in those locations accurately. So the self-learn strategy is developed. The car was frightening fast, 4-ton of metal managed 0-60 mph below 6 seconds. The engine only devolpe 450 BHP, you can imagine the torque figures require to complete the job. The timing was extremely advanced and no alcohol was used.

Richard

Last edited by Richard L; 03-27-2006 at 04:35 PM.
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Old 03-27-2006, 06:06 PM   #19
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Actually, I was interested in the real true abilities of the MF2. I have never chosen to discuss the Sys3, I don't understand why you are digressing here. If I can't buy it, why bring it up? I'd really like to drop this other whatever thing I can't buy if possible, as this thread is going nowhere fast.

What exactly does the MF2 do? Exactly how can it be programmed? Can I see the software? Do you have any user manuals I can download and look at?
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Old 03-27-2006, 06:31 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freon
if TXS ever releases the new firmware for the STI...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freon
if TXS ever releases the new firmware for the STI...
x1000000
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Old 03-27-2006, 06:46 PM   #21
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You were not impressed with the MF2 so I digressed. There was no point in continuing. The system3 was for OE users.

I was trying to suggest you can use the same stretegy with Utec. I wasn't trying to sell you a MF2 or System3. As the subject of the post. " While we are on the subject of 3D controllers... " - not with you exclusively.

If I come to your thread, then I will be guilty of choosing what I want to discuss. Since you are only interested in individual site programming, the MF2 is not for you. I try to read your broken picture link, what was I suppose to know what you want me to see and response?

The MF2 manual can be downloaded: http://www.aquamist.co.uk/cp/mf2manual.zip


Richard
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Old 03-28-2006, 04:39 PM   #22
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Well, I was neither impressed nor turned off of the MF2, I was trying to dig for information on what it is really doing. Looking back I still have no idea when you stopped talking about the MF2 and starting talking about other devices.

After reading the manual I think I can confirm what I had really thought initially. I don't consider the MF2 a "3D" controller. The output is based on two main inputs, but you still have no real 3D control of the output range based on your two primary inputs (boost and RPM here). If you change the output in one intersection of your two inputs, you affect a large portion of the output range.

It's nice, but, not what I consider 3D.
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Old 03-28-2006, 04:51 PM   #23
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3D in my book means three axes. X-Y-Z. I know you want a 3D-individual cell control, MF2 is not suitable for your application as the Z axis is a product of X and Y.

Perhaps you can represent the MF2 PWM output on a x-y plain (2d)? I love to see it.

Sorry I moved on before you finished discussing the MF2.

Last edited by Richard L; 03-29-2006 at 03:19 AM. Reason: typo - axis (axes)
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