Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Thursday July 24, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Built Motor Discussion

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-05-2006, 08:57 PM   #1
sonic rx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 33457
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: PRSIC
Location: 430 whp & 400 wtq 22 psi 93oct
Vehicle:
HAHA EVERYONE KNOWS
DYNO JET IS NOT REAL WHP

Default need some cam advice

swapping to a 2.5l sti short block ,and i am going to use the wrx heads i am thinking of a 264 cam kit.springs retainers also what is good,and what have people run? i have looked at

helix 264 kit
crower 264 kit
dpr
and cosworth

if i buy just cams what springs and retainers should i buy? looking for 350awhp at the wheels not much more.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
sonic rx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2006, 09:14 PM   #2
ShaggyGT
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 19221
Join Date: May 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Vehicle:
2005 Legacy GT (STi)
UR35R/Rotated Intake Mani

Default

Go with Kelford cams. There is a vendor here selling any of the Kelford cam setups with everything you need to upgrade your heads for around $1575!!! Kelford has 3 different stages. I am planning to go with the 272/264 setup, which is the Street/Race setup.

Though for your power goals cams are definitely not a necessity.

-Matt
ShaggyGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2006, 10:01 PM   #3
sonic rx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 33457
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: PRSIC
Location: 430 whp & 400 wtq 22 psi 93oct
Vehicle:
HAHA EVERYONE KNOWS
DYNO JET IS NOT REAL WHP

Default

you think i will hit 350 whp with stock wrx heads and cams? i just figure since things will be out i would do a little bit more to the heads just in case i get greedy
sonic rx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2006, 10:06 PM   #4
ShaggyGT
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 19221
Join Date: May 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Vehicle:
2005 Legacy GT (STi)
UR35R/Rotated Intake Mani

Default

Its definitely not a bad idea by any means, if you have the money to do it then go for it. I have seen your power goals done with the WRX heads and STi shortblock combo. If one were on a budget then just having the heads ported isnt a bad idea.

-Matt
ShaggyGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2006, 10:06 PM   #5
MARKGSTI
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 70197
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonic rx
you think i will hit 350 whp with stock wrx heads and cams? i just figure since things will be out i would do a little bit more to the heads just in case i get greedy
IMHO unless you plan on shooting for over 380-400whp on a normal reading dyno your not getting a good bang for the buck spending the 2-4k for a decent head/cam setup.

You have to know for SURE what power you want before you make your final choice...as it is cheaper @ this point with the motor being out.

Most people say one thing and @ the end of the build change their minds
MARKGSTI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2006, 10:08 PM   #6
RichWRX
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 15544
Join Date: Feb 2002
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Orr,Minnesota
Vehicle:
STI hydra,2.65l
BW s374 turbo(twin scroll

Default

Merchant : Innovative Tuning
Date/Time : 27-Feb-2006 02:24:40 PM

========= ORDER INFORMATION =========
Invoice : 500895
Description : Kelford Camset and SuperTECH Valvetrain Kit
Amount : 1339.00 (USD)
Payment Method : MasterCard
RichWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2006, 10:20 PM   #7
sonic rx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 33457
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: PRSIC
Location: 430 whp & 400 wtq 22 psi 93oct
Vehicle:
HAHA EVERYONE KNOWS
DYNO JET IS NOT REAL WHP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MARKGSTI
IMHO unless you plan on shooting for over 380-400whp on a normal reading dyno your not getting a good bang for the buck spending the 2-4k for a decent head/cam setup.

You have to know for SURE what power you want before you make your final choice...as it is cheaper @ this point with the motor being out.

Most people say one thing and @ the end of the build change their minds

well if i hit 350 real hp i would be happy. i need to keep cost down as much as possible.so you say 350 with stock 2.0l cams ,and heads is very possible?
sonic rx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2006, 11:59 PM   #8
banzai
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 63926
Join Date: Jun 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Sun City KS.
Vehicle:
Axis /RAW 2.2 Closed
deck EJ 20G stroker

Default

i got helix cams....should be here tuesday....
banzai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2006, 03:28 PM   #9
Gruppe-S
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 23216
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Lake Forest, CA | 949-457-1234
Vehicle:
2006 949-457-1234
949-457-1234

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonic rx
swapping to a 2.5l sti short block ,and i am going to use the wrx heads i am thinking of a 264 cam kit.springs retainers also what is good,and what have people run? i have looked at

helix 264 kit
crower 264 kit
dpr
and cosworth

if i buy just cams what springs and retainers should i buy? looking for 350awhp at the wheels not much more.
Hello,

A few things to add here:

First off, 350WHP (dynojet) with a 2.5L SB and stock WRX heads is not going to be easy on pump gas. With a 18G and 93 octane you'll be close with full supporting mods but that's pushing it pretty hard. A 20G will probably get you there. With any loading dyno, it'll be even harder to hit those numbers. The 2.5L shortblock will mostly be good for a fat midrange power band.

The Helix cams come with a supporting valve train (Ti retainers, dual springs, and spring seat locators) and are a good deal cheaper than the Kelford package. We tested this package extensively and were pleasantly suprised by the results. Keeping in mind that our 4WD Mustang dyno reads extremely low (about 25% drivetrain loss as compared to about 10% on most Dynojets), with 95 octane on a 2.0L block w/ a small 20G, these cams made 330WHP peak. That is about the same peak power that a 2.5L STi that a TD06-20G / Green makes on 95!!! So if you couple the 2.0L heads w/ Helix cams with a 2.5L SB, you have a monster combination! To put those numbers in perspective, a VF34 WRX on 91 usually makes around 245-265 WHP on our dyno. 330 WHP is crazy power out of a 2.0L!!!

In short, our test results show that the WRX heads with Helix cams produce similar (if not better) peak power levels than the STi AVCS heads produce. This is not to say that they necessarily flow more air (although we think they do) or produce better power overall; the AVCS heads of the STi produce a wide and meaty torque curve that isn't achieveable with the non AVCS heads of the WRX. This is simply to say that the Helix cams flow a lot more air than the stock WRX heads and are a lethal combination with the 2.5L SB.



Thanks,

Geoff
Gruppe-S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2006, 09:45 AM   #10
sonic rx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 33457
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: PRSIC
Location: 430 whp & 400 wtq 22 psi 93oct
Vehicle:
HAHA EVERYONE KNOWS
DYNO JET IS NOT REAL WHP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruppe-S
Hello,

A few things to add here:

First off, 350WHP (dynojet) with a 2.5L SB and stock WRX heads is not going to be easy on pump gas. With a 18G and 93 octane you'll be close with full supporting mods but that's pushing it pretty hard. A 20G will probably get you there. With any loading dyno, it'll be even harder to hit those numbers. The 2.5L shortblock will mostly be good for a fat midrange power band.

The Helix cams come with a supporting valve train (Ti retainers, dual springs, and spring seat locators) and are a good deal cheaper than the Kelford package. We tested this package extensively and were pleasantly suprised by the results. Keeping in mind that our 4WD Mustang dyno reads extremely low (about 25% drivetrain loss as compared to about 10% on most Dynojets), with 95 octane on a 2.0L block w/ a small 20G, these cams made 330WHP peak. That is about the same peak power that a 2.5L STi that a TD06-20G / Green makes on 95!!! So if you couple the 2.0L heads w/ Helix cams with a 2.5L SB, you have a monster combination! To put those numbers in perspective, a VF34 WRX on 91 usually makes around 245-265 WHP on our dyno. 330 WHP is crazy power out of a 2.0L!!!

In short, our test results show that the WRX heads with Helix cams produce similar (if not better) peak power levels than the STi AVCS heads produce. This is not to say that they necessarily flow more air (although we think they do) or produce better power overall; the AVCS heads of the STi produce a wide and meaty torque curve that isn't achieveable with the non AVCS heads of the WRX. This is simply to say that the Helix cams flow a lot more air than the stock WRX heads and are a lethal combination with the 2.5L SB.



Thanks,

Geoff
geoff as of right now i will still be using a 1st gen pe 1820 turbo in which i layed down 324 awhp on 93 octane,and 303 awtq.this a little bit bigger than an 18g i will never use fp ever again,and numbers are just numbers. i really want consistancy with great power . we shall see how it pans out seeing the helix cams are on the way. my 2.0l heads will be bolted up to a sti 2.5l short block. what has the idle quality been like? little bit rough,or like stock. i know 272 duration cams sound like a harley idle
sonic rx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2006, 03:05 PM   #11
Gruppe-S
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 23216
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Lake Forest, CA | 949-457-1234
Vehicle:
2006 949-457-1234
949-457-1234

Default

Cool. I'd actually expect your 1820 to make a bit less than an 18G as an 1820 is like a VF34 with slightly bigger compressor wheel and slightly bigger turbine housing. Numbers are just numbers and they're worthless without a baseline to compare them to. I think you'll be very pleased with the Helix cams. The idle is noticeably lumpier but nowhere close to the quality of the 272s. You don't have to worry about your engine stalling when the cams are off lobe.

-Geoff
Gruppe-S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2006, 08:48 PM   #12
sonic rx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 33457
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: PRSIC
Location: 430 whp & 400 wtq 22 psi 93oct
Vehicle:
HAHA EVERYONE KNOWS
DYNO JET IS NOT REAL WHP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruppe-S
Cool. I'd actually expect your 1820 to make a bit less than an 18G as an 1820 is like a VF34 with slightly bigger compressor wheel and slightly bigger turbine housing. Numbers are just numbers and they're worthless without a baseline to compare them to. I think you'll be very pleased with the Helix cams. The idle is noticeably lumpier but nowhere close to the quality of the 272s. You don't have to worry about your engine stalling when the cams are off lobe.

-Geoff
hey geoff it is the first generation 1820 with the adjustable wasgate spring. which flows a little bit more than an 18g. maybe make less than an 18g with the new version 1820,but i doubt it both version out flow an 18g. and i have never seen an 18g make the same power as any pe 1820. i think your turbo thoughts might be reversed
sonic rx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2006, 03:09 PM   #13
Gruppe-S
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 23216
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Lake Forest, CA | 949-457-1234
Vehicle:
2006 949-457-1234
949-457-1234

Default

Hmm, that's very odd because we've never seen an 1820 outflow an 18G. You're talking about the old 1820 with the gray compressor housing? You can still get the adjustable w/g spring. In any event, not saying you're wrong; we've just never seen an 1820 make more power than an 18G.

Thanks,

Geoff
Gruppe-S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2006, 01:58 PM   #14
poormansporsche
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 79798
Join Date: Jan 2005
Default

With the Helix cams do you get MIL or Check engine codes? How would these cams work with a 16g or big 16g turbo on a 2.0 litre?

cheers

garrett
poormansporsche is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2006, 05:15 PM   #15
Gruppe-S
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 23216
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Lake Forest, CA | 949-457-1234
Vehicle:
2006 949-457-1234
949-457-1234

Default

No, you won't. Your car will of course need to be retuned for these cams. The effects of these cams will be less pronounced with a 16G than they will be with this small 20G but they will still make good power. We tested them with a VF34 and they made 22 WHP up top but they did lose a bit of low and midrange.

Thanks,

Geoff
Gruppe-S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2006, 01:33 AM   #16
Silverpike
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 92399
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: San Jose, CA
Vehicle:
02 Bugeye
WRB

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruppe-S
The Helix cams come with a supporting valve train (Ti retainers, dual springs, and spring seat locators) and are a good deal cheaper than the Kelford package. We tested this package extensively and were pleasantly suprised by the results. Keeping in mind that our 4WD Mustang dyno reads extremely low (about 25% drivetrain loss as compared to about 10% on most Dynojets), with 95 octane on a 2.0L block w/ a small 20G, these cams made 330WHP peak. That is about the same peak power that a 2.5L STi that a TD06-20G / Green makes on 95!!! So if you couple the 2.0L heads w/ Helix cams with a 2.5L SB, you have a monster combination! To put those numbers in perspective, a VF34 WRX on 91 usually makes around 245-265 WHP on our dyno. 330 WHP is crazy power out of a 2.0L!!!

Thanks,

Geoff
Geoff, out of curiousity: have you dynoed any other type of cam on your dyno besides Helix?

I'm just curious to see all the choices compared, expensive or not.

Also, I'm surprise no one has asked about cam regrinding. It seems to me that regrinds would offer a nice price advantage over a commercial cam, since 4 new cams is a lot more expensive than 4 regrinds. Granted, if the ramp rate changes too much then stiffer springs would be needed.

I know many people have had great success with WebCam regrinds for custom builds on other platforms. It works best if you supply your own specs, but Web does a good job of calculating specs for you if you don't have the skills.
Silverpike is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2006, 08:31 PM   #17
Gruppe-S
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 23216
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Lake Forest, CA | 949-457-1234
Vehicle:
2006 949-457-1234
949-457-1234

Default

We have. We've also dynoed the Jun, Kelford, and DPR cams. They're all yielded relatively similar results. Out of these three, the Helix seem to be the most similar to the Jun cams.

I'd be interested to see how some regrinds do also but I haven't seen anyone running them yet.

-Geoff
Gruppe-S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2006, 12:03 AM   #18
banzai
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 63926
Join Date: Jun 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Sun City KS.
Vehicle:
Axis /RAW 2.2 Closed
deck EJ 20G stroker

Default

sort of hijack....

Geoff, do you have any more detailed specs on the cams? i already own a pair, and jsut wanted to know a bit more.
banzai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2006, 12:41 AM   #19
02Toyowrx
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 56520
Join Date: Mar 2004
Vehicle:
2002 WRX
White

Default

Banzai did you not get a spec sheet with your cams?
02Toyowrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2006, 08:09 PM   #20
Gruppe-S
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 23216
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Lake Forest, CA | 949-457-1234
Vehicle:
2006 949-457-1234
949-457-1234

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by banzai
sort of hijack....

Geoff, do you have any more detailed specs on the cams? i already own a pair, and jsut wanted to know a bit more.
I don't, I apologize . You'll be happy to know that we sent out a set to be specced because we wanted to know the same information. It will be posted as soon as the results come back.

Thanks,

Geoff
Gruppe-S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2006, 08:52 PM   #21
banzai
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 63926
Join Date: Jun 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Sun City KS.
Vehicle:
Axis /RAW 2.2 Closed
deck EJ 20G stroker

Default

things like lobe seperation, duratyion at .050, gross duration and gross lift are what i'd want to know.
banzai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2006, 03:51 PM   #22
Gruppe-S
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 23216
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Lake Forest, CA | 949-457-1234
Vehicle:
2006 949-457-1234
949-457-1234

Default

Yup, that's exactly what we're finding out.
Gruppe-S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2006, 12:26 PM   #23
Token-Negro
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 81659
Join Date: Feb 2005
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Sammamish
Vehicle:
2010 Fozzy XT
Ice Silver Metallic

Default

Would like to know more about these cams since the alternatives are alot more money. I will have a green behind these, on the 2.5 SB and WRX heads. Trying to make close to 400whp on 91 with WI
Token-Negro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2006, 02:28 PM   #24
Gruppe-S
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 23216
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Lake Forest, CA | 949-457-1234
Vehicle:
2006 949-457-1234
949-457-1234

Default

Well, these cams definitely work. We have plenty of results and dynocharts to prove that. There are numerous people on this board running them that are quite happy with them. As far as stats on them, we still haven't gotten the cam doctor results back yet. The specifications that we do have are 264 duration, 9.6mm Lift,titanium retainers, dual valve spring, with spring seat locators. If you're looking for 400 WHP on a Dynojet, I'm fairly certain the package you described above will get you there.

Thanks,

Geoff
Gruppe-S is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Alright, some Guru insight please. I've searched, and need some direct advice. NorCalEnthu Newbies & FAQs 7 05-10-2007 07:58 PM
I need some gauges advice FuZZyLoGiC Interior & Exterior Modification 4 01-09-2002 07:42 AM
('93-'01) Need Some Serious Advice Bumsarama Impreza Forum 1 10-11-2001 12:12 AM
Need Some Legal Advice! Jason General Forum Archive 11 12-14-2000 05:37 PM
I need some stereo advice... Evil-Mastermind Car Audio, Video & Security 4 08-18-2000 10:07 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:43 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.