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Old 11-21-2000, 10:11 AM   #1
Patrick Olsen
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Post Curb weight - '99 GT wagon vs. '99 GT sedan

Just curious what the weight difference is between a wagon and a sedan. I'm in the market for a new GT, and I might consider a wagon if it doesn't weigh too too much more than a sedan.

Thanks,
Pat Olsen
'99 Legacy 2.5GT sedan (RIP)
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Old 11-21-2000, 11:43 AM   #2
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99 Legacy GT Sedan = AT-3190, MT-3125
99 Legacy GT Wagon = AT-3265, MT-3200

Not much...
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Old 11-21-2000, 02:25 PM   #3
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Exclamation

Pat - The wagon has a little better weight distribution than the Sedans. You are planning 2 look for a '99 GT Wagon right? The only real problem that I may forsee with a wagon is that since there's more wind drag. But other than that, it should handle pretty well... and since in Japan almost all the wickedly modified Legacys are wagons, plus lots of body kits too!
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Old 11-21-2000, 07:39 PM   #4
Patrick Olsen
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GTBGUY - I would actually prefer a sedan to replace my totalled sedan, but 5speed 2.5GT sedans are pretty hard to find. So, I told the dealership that a 2.5GT wagon would be OK too. One of the sales managers is heading to a big national (? - maybe just New Endland) Subaru auction tomorrow and will be looking for a 2.5GT 5speed for me.

I would tend to agree with you on performance. The extra 75lb isn't *too* bad, and I would imagine that extra weight is over the rear, so as you pointed out the distribution will be a bit better. My sedan was very competitive at auto-x events, and I would think I would be just as competitive with the wagon. The image of a Legacy 2.5GT wagon wearing white Raceline RL-7s (sitting in my garage, never used, since I totalled the sedan) kicking arse and taking names brings a smile to my face.

Pat
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Old 11-22-2000, 12:00 AM   #5
gumball
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Question

Can you hold out for a WRX Wagon? Seems like they'll be bigger than the 1st Gen. Impreza, not as roomy as the Legacy, but much improved.

The '00 Wagons are pretty heavy, I think. The 6 cyl VDC is up towards 3700 lbs!
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Old 11-22-2000, 12:04 AM   #6
gtguy
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Wagons rule, baby! The weight distribution thing is true. I test drove both wagon and sedan, and felt more securely planted with the wagon. I didn't really notice the extra weight, and still don't. I love mine (can you tell?).

I got the only 5-speed wagon they had on the lot, and it was equipped the way I would have done it, anyhow. I'd go for a wagon.

Kevin
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Old 11-22-2000, 12:12 AM   #7
Patrick Olsen
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Cool, DLC, that's just what I was looking for. I thought I remembered that the wagon wasn't all that much heavier than the sedan, but I couldn't find the curb weights listed in the owner's manual (I thought that's where I had read it before).

As for waiting until the spring, unfortunately it's not possible. There was a bit of ice on the road today, a scary sight when one is driving a 400+hp Mustang with Z-rated tires on it. Me need another AWD car NOW!

Pat Olsen
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Old 11-22-2000, 12:29 AM   #8
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All of this info can be found at MSN's CarPoint.

Just tell it what you have and you can eventually get to all of the specs for that model in all years and all variants.

Mustangs are scary when it's anything but dry, especially with loads of torque and a solid axle...
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Old 11-22-2000, 06:07 AM   #9
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Surprisingly enough, my 93 Turbo is pretty good at the events as well. Even though i've got a torque advantage, i'm stuck with a 4EAT. Nevertheless, i'm within a hair's breadth of most the 2.5RSes.
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Old 11-22-2000, 04:28 PM   #10
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I think you will enjoy the Wagon. I have a 98 GT Wagon, Green with automatic. It's been great, it can get a little tail happy during an Autocross, but the 18mm sway bar fixed that. You should be able to pickup a decent 98 or 99 GT Wagon with stick for 15,000 to 19,000 bucks depending on condition, options and milage. Beware that Subie's are HARD on clutchs, so give it a good going over before taking delivery. You can always shop at Autotrader.com and Edmunds.com to see what is available, and what you should pay.
Garry www.subaruclub.com
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Old 11-23-2000, 09:02 PM   #11
GTBGUY
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Exclamation

Pat - I personally picked the Sedan b/c I wanted to make it a BMW M5 killing machine when I was done with it. It's a very subtle yet aggressive car. The new Legacys ('00-up) don't look as aggressive, especially the ones over here in North America.
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Old 11-24-2000, 11:29 PM   #12
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New Legacys not agressive???

Thats the opposite of the Truth... 2000+ Legacy GT's look more agressive than any sedan I know of in its class, especially in white
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Old 11-25-2000, 12:54 AM   #13
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I love the GT's but hate Subarus policy of no varations. I WOULD own a 99GT wagon but they would not ditch the sunroof for me if I ordered one. Same with the 2000's. I really hate the stupid double sunroof they have on the high end wagons now.

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Old 11-25-2000, 08:36 AM   #14
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I agree. I think the new GT sedans are pretty darned aggressive looking, just not as aggressive as the old body style, with that square-shouldered old M3 look to them.

The new body style wagons, on the other hand, don't do it for me. Part of it is that Outback-style hump they added to them, which makes the design look top heavy. I was able to park my '98 next to a new one, and really look over the differences.

Color me unimpressed.

Kevin
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Old 11-28-2000, 02:03 PM   #15
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Quote:
GTBGUY - I would actually prefer a sedan to replace my totalled sedan, but 5speed 2.5GT sedans are pretty hard to find. So, I told the dealership that a 2.5GT wagon would be OK too. One of the sales managers is heading to a big national (? - maybe just New Endland) Subaru auction tomorrow and will be looking for a 2.5GT 5speed for me.


good luck! I tried for a few months to find something like that, and came up with nothing.

I was looking for a '98 (more less) with a 5 speed and the 2.5L. Pretty much limited me to the GT model. Prices were 16,000 - 18,000. However I never found one without an automatic. I even had a company searching all of the auctions for a 5 speed. They reviewed their records, and said they never seen a 5 speed come off of lease in the last couple of months.

OUCH!

I did get extremely lucky though. I found a 2000 base model wagon (5 speed, 2.5l) for only $16,000. The car is much more refined than the '99 and earlier model, and doesn't have that silly hood scoop.

Besides, being a base model means I didn't waste my $$ on a suspension and a stereo that I would just throw out and replace anyway!

I hope you have good luck finding a 5 speed - it can be a lot of work for a used one!

Check out this web site for some interesting pricing information (they were the ones searching for my 5 speed): http://www.leftlane.com/
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Old 11-28-2000, 02:06 PM   #16
Mx5racer
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Quote:

I love the GT's but hate Subarus policy of no varations. I WOULD own a 99GT wagon but they would not ditch the sunroof for me if I ordered one. Same with the 2000's. I really hate the stupid double sunroof they have on the high end wagons now.


Me too. That is why I got the base car, and I am building the thing up myself. The GT model I was looking at was an extra $8,000; that gives me lots of room to play and make the car the way I want it, not the factory's way.

[This message has been edited by Mx5racer (edited November 28, 2000).]
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Old 11-29-2000, 06:07 AM   #17
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A couple of comments:

1) For MY00-01 the L sedan is about 100 lbs lighter than the GT sedan. However, there is also a difference in the axle ratios. The L has a 3.9 axle ratio and the GT has a 4.11 axle ratio. I don't have info for the MY99 models, but I think they had similar differences.

I'm guessing, Pat, that the insurance company has pocession of your totalled Legacy, thus ruling out the possibility of scavenging the necessary parts needed to turn a L into a GT. Shoot,you could have even turned an auto into a 5 speed.

2) I don't necessarily agree with the statements above that the wagon has "better" weight distribution than the sedan. The word "better" is a very relative term. Better how?

In the situation in which Pat's other Legacy was totalled, I feel having more weight(mass) in the rear would have only made things worse. I think the term "weight transfer" is misleading to some. The weight(force) acting downward on a given wheel does vary (weight transfer)with the situation, however there is no mass transfer unless you have something loose moving around the car. Force=mass x acceleration, thus more mass in the rear will result in greater lateral forces acting on the rear during cornering. This will have the most significance during deceleration (i.e. trailing throttle oversteer).

I've experienced this first hand in my RS. My car definitely has a greater tendency for trailing throttle oversteer when I'm carrying a heavy load in the trunk. Or even more so, when I have my MTB in my hitch mounted biker carrier. I've never measured it, but probably have greater than 50% over the rear wheels in that situation.

If having "better" weight distribution is more important than saving on total weight, then I guess all those who empty everything out of their trunks for auto-Xes and other events are doing something wrong.

3) I spotted a used Red GT sedan, MY99 or earlier, at Chase Subaru in Watertown the other day. If I go out for lunch today, I'll stop and check if its a 5 speed or not.

[This message has been edited by Scottie (edited November 29, 2000).]
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Old 11-29-2000, 11:31 AM   #18
hillman
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While I agree with you that lighter is better than 'better' distribution, there are exceptions.

If your car's linear acceleration is traction limited, like, say, a pony car, you may be better off with more weight. As such, you will see these cars autocrossed with full tanks of gas and spare tires in place.

OTOH, most North American Subarus are power limited, and would be better off with as little weight onboard as possible.

FWIW, I bought my 2000 Legacy GT wagon last January largely because I could not find a nice used wagon with a manual transmission.
I didn't really want a new car, but the selection for a 5-speed wagon with driven rear wheels is very thin.

That said, I do really like it. It's stock, and I can stay with all but the fastest local Street Touring cars, and between runs, I can put the seats down and nap in the back.

If I were you, Pat, I'd seriously consider a Forrester.

Wait, stop laughing. It is the lightest Subaru wagon available here with the 2.5 liter motor. The 2001 can be as light as 3020 pounds, compared to 3450 for the Legacy GT wagon.

If you are changing the suspension anyway, start with the biggest motor in the lightest chassis.
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Old 11-29-2000, 08:16 PM   #19
GTBGUY
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Ok here goes!

Anyways, who here thinks that BMW's are light? I don't think so either... other than the M models. Weight distribution is crucial for handling characteristics. Turn-in, how responsive/communicative your steering is etc is dependant and where the weight is distributed in the vehicle. The reason why I think the Legacy w/ the same modifications as an Impreza will "out-handle" the Impreza is due to the weight distribution. We have a better distribution closer to the center of the vehicle, thus being able to make changes in directions fast. I'm not sure how many people read the new SCC issue for the test of the Evo 6 w/ 16,17 and 18" wheels and adding balast weights. For a vehicle like the Legacy, adding 50lbs isn't going to hinder the performance... as quoted from SCC "it's like a fly on a rhino".
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Old 11-30-2000, 05:19 AM   #20
Scottie
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Just to clarify my previous post, I never said weight distribution doesn't have an effect on a car's handling. My point is simply that there isn't one "best" weight distribution (i.e. 50/50) for all cars. There are a lot of other factors that need to be taken under consideration. And in attempting to bring a car closer to 50/50, it would be better to try and reduce weight at the front than to add it to the rear. Even moving weight from the front to the rear (ie battery relocation) would be better than adding weight.

With the money you would save buying an RS sedan versus GT wagon, you could afford the aluminum hood, lighter front bumper bar, cost of relocting your battery to the trunk, and a couple of other "lighten up the front" mods.

GTBGUY, you suggested that "The wagon has a little better weight distribution than the Sedans." Well if that's the case, and this "better" weight distribution results in a better handling car, then I'm going to start selling handling mods to sedan owners. Yep, my mod will give a sedan the same weight distribution as a wagon. What would such a mod be worth, a $100, $200. That should make for some pretty good profit margins, as a 75lb bag of sand and the straps to hold in place shouldn't cost more than $15 or so. ....OH $h1t, I just saw your comment about "adding ballast". There goes another money making idea down the drain....hehehe



[This message has been edited by Scottie (edited November 30, 2000).]
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Old 11-30-2000, 09:04 AM   #21
GTBGUY
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Scottie - FYI, I have 2 Legacy Sedans ('98L and '99GT) so I don't have a wagon. Anyways, the reason why the wagons have a little better weight distribution is b/c it move's it's inertial moment closer to the actual center of the car buy providing a "pendulum" effect brought about by the longer overhang in the rear in comparison to a Legacy Sedan. Yes, weight can be re-distributed by using lightened body pieces on an Impreza, but you have to also factor in practicallity of the vehicle itself... things like 60/40 folding rear seats etc and the increase cabin space easily would make up for the weight penalty of the Legacys.

As for the ballast comment, I was comparing the Legacy : Sedan vs Wagon... adding the 50lbs is like adding nothing.

I do agree with you there is no "best weight distribuition" but you do have to realize that most high performance vehicles ie:BMW M5/540i etc have 50/50 weight distribution.
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Old 11-30-2000, 01:08 PM   #22
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Better weigh distribution leads to a better ballanced car.

A lighter car typically means a faster car (even if it is not as well ballanced).

Funny thing happened the other day. I was setting up a race track for a driving school I was putting on, and found all of these little lead hocky pucks strewn around the corners.

It took a minute to figure out, but they were "ballast" used to corner weight the race cars that had been on the track the day before (obviously not mounted very well).

It depends on what you want, but ballast can be used effectivelly for a high performance car.
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Old 11-30-2000, 02:42 PM   #23
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GTBGUY, all...

FYI, here are the L, W, H stats for the 93, 95 and 00 Legacy Wagons and Sedans.

L W H
93 Touring Wagon 181.9 66.5 54.7
93 Sport Sedan 178.9 66.5 53.5
95 LSi Wagon 183.9 67.5 57.1
95 LSi Sedan 180.9 67.5 55.3
00 GT Wagon 187.4 68.7 59.6
00 GT Limited Sedan 187.4 68.7 55.7

So, not only are the Wagons just a tad longer, but the newer models get longer, wider and taller...

[This message has been edited by DLC (edited November 30, 2000).]
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Old 12-01-2000, 08:08 AM   #24
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All I know is when I test drove the 5-speed sedan vs. wagon, the transition test I used was this right to left S with a straightaway entering and a little kink leaving it. It's marked 15 mph (which is rather silly), but can be taken at a comfortable 35-40 dependent upon tires and driver.

The sedan wasn't as adept in the transition from right to left with, believe it or not, a lower tossability factor than the wagon. The kink was also smoother.

Kevin
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