Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Friday July 11, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Built Motor Discussion

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-09-2008, 06:47 PM   #226
modaddict
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 95840
Join Date: Sep 2005
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Pasco, WA
Vehicle:
sold to a good bud
awaiting next car

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WJM View Post
Apparently it works. *shrug*
X2

* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
modaddict is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2008, 06:59 PM   #227
Homemade WRX
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 33782
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: 3MI Racing LLC
Vehicle:
96 bastard child
search FIRST, then PM!!!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post
The Spec C crank simply has a second set of thru-drilled holes, 90 degrees from the first set.

Jeff
yes, but they are 45* off from standard oil delivery holes...I need to look further at the standard and "spec c" crank I have...now that I'm wondering why they shifted it 45*
Homemade WRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2008, 07:25 PM   #228
sponaugle
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4498
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland, Oregon
Vehicle:
WRX H6-3.0 Turbo
www.surgelinetuning.com

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
yes, but they are 45* off from standard oil delivery holes...I need to look further at the standard and "spec c" crank I have...now that I'm wondering why they shifted it 45*
Interesting.. I never noticed. I'll pull out a WRX and a Spec C and compare and take a few pictures.. Once I get done playing around on the dyno with my GTO... man o man 6.0Ls at 10psi makes some fast torque. I can hit 370 lb-ft at 2000 rpm. Me likey displacement.

Cheers,

Jeff Sponaugle
sponaugle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2008, 08:35 PM   #229
Homemade WRX
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 33782
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: 3MI Racing LLC
Vehicle:
96 bastard child
search FIRST, then PM!!!

Default

I took pics of them next to eachother...one thing I forgot is that Nick is angry at dominic...so you have to put in get-a-dom-tune where google is...but take away the -'s


I'll just post them in this thread a little later.

oh and I'm enjoying my new 7.3L at about 30 psi

Last edited by Homemade WRX; 02-09-2008 at 09:52 PM.
Homemade WRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2008, 09:52 PM   #230
Homemade WRX
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 33782
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: 3MI Racing LLC
Vehicle:
96 bastard child
search FIRST, then PM!!!

Default

enjoy
new crank 3

old crank 1

old crank 2
Homemade WRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2008, 03:03 AM   #231
Nilesh
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 126987
Join Date: Sep 2006
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Chicago, IL
Default

Homemade WRX,

I'm a bit confused how the holes connect. Can you put straws through your new ej205 crank so i can see this, or maybe explain it.

Thanks
Nilesh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2008, 03:20 AM   #232
Homemade WRX
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 33782
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: 3MI Racing LLC
Vehicle:
96 bastard child
search FIRST, then PM!!!

Default

yeah, let me grab one and toss some straws through for visual. I'll post it up tomorrow.
Homemade WRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2008, 05:06 PM   #233
IllNastyImpreza
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 36333
Join Date: May 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: East Kingston NH
Vehicle:
DIY project: life
I need more TIME!

Default

wheres the best place to get your crank drilled?

How much higher should I be able to keep oil preasure and flow up ???
IllNastyImpreza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2008, 11:03 PM   #234
Homemade WRX
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 33782
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: 3MI Racing LLC
Vehicle:
96 bastard child
search FIRST, then PM!!!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
yeah, let me grab one and toss some straws through for visual. I'll post it up tomorrow.
forgot the only one that I have right now is being cryo'd right now...so "straw" pics will have to wait a little longer
Homemade WRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2008, 08:10 AM   #235
widebodygtr
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 173337
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Australia
Vehicle:
1990 GTR Skyline
Bayside blue

Default

Great thread guys, Am new to subaru engine building so don't shoot me.
I currently have a GTR skyline and have had a look at the oiling system on it that may help.
These engines have a 8250 rev limit stock and will gladly rev higher with few oiling issues.
First things are oil pickup starvation on heavy corners due to gforces(fixed by baffles around pickup
Second is over oiling to the cams(fixed by restricting oiling to the top end) cams only need minimal oiling due to slow revs and no heavy loading as associated with mains or rods.
Third is faulty oil pump drive(fixed by using a longer pump drive on the crank)
And finally drain back from the head(fixed by plumbing a -10 line from the back of the head to the sump
Now some of you are saying cross drill and some are saying don't and some of you say that it is because the oil hole is at 90deg.
The RB26 in gtr's run there oil holes at 90deg aswell and run 10psi of oil pressure per 1000revs but difference is they run full groove mains on top and bottom main bearings and numerous holes on the rod bearing bottom shell.
My engine in particular makes over 800hp at the wheels running 10,000 revs 30psi boost and 100psi oil press at max revs with no cross drilling or oil chamfers on the crank, I run .002" on the mains and .0025" on the rods.
Running larger than .002" to .0025" on the mains in a subaru engine seems a little big to me as taking into account the expansion rate of the cases you will end up with more like .003 to .0035" which in turn will lose oil pressure and also cause the crank to whip slightly
There are quite a few GTR engines that rev to 13,000 and 45psi boost with aftermarket cranks that seem to only cross drill keeping them at 90deg to the crank.
I am just a bit puzzled as to why you are so worried about centrifigal force when these engines run similar crank designs.
I think your issues are more in the feeding as stated by someone else how it feeds 2 rods of one main and also the oil hole phasing.
As for phasing there is more load on the crank about 15 to 20deg ATDC as the combustion process is in full swing as opposed to BTDC when there is still pressure applied but nowhere near as much, Having said this you need to pre empt this and time them a little earlier so as it has full oil pressure at this point
As for loosing HP with higher oil pressure, i would rather loose 7 to 10hp in knowing that my bearings are not going to run dry with the higher oil pressure, and taking into account that there are a number of 90deg turns in which you usually loose some pressure in the engine it is wise to test oil pressure at a number of locations with the last point of oiling usually the worst.
Don't mean to step on anyones toes, they are just some of my theories

Last edited by widebodygtr; 03-02-2008 at 08:17 AM.
widebodygtr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2008, 02:16 PM   #236
IllNastyImpreza
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 36333
Join Date: May 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: East Kingston NH
Vehicle:
DIY project: life
I need more TIME!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by widebodygtr View Post
Great thread guys, Am new to subaru engine building so don't shoot me.
I currently have a GTR skyline and have had a look at the oiling system on it that may help.
These engines have a 8250 rev limit stock and will gladly rev higher with few oiling issues.
First things are oil pickup starvation on heavy corners due to gforces(fixed by baffles around pickup
Second is over oiling to the cams(fixed by restricting oiling to the top end) cams only need minimal oiling due to slow revs and no heavy loading as associated with mains or rods.
Third is faulty oil pump drive(fixed by using a longer pump drive on the crank)
And finally drain back from the head(fixed by plumbing a -10 line from the back of the head to the sump
Now some of you are saying cross drill and some are saying don't and some of you say that it is because the oil hole is at 90deg.
The RB26 in gtr's run there oil holes at 90deg aswell and run 10psi of oil pressure per 1000revs but difference is they run full groove mains on top and bottom main bearings and numerous holes on the rod bearing bottom shell.
My engine in particular makes over 800hp at the wheels running 10,000 revs 30psi boost and 100psi oil press at max revs with no cross drilling or oil chamfers on the crank, I run .002" on the mains and .0025" on the rods.
Running larger than .002" to .0025" on the mains in a subaru engine seems a little big to me as taking into account the expansion rate of the cases you will end up with more like .003 to .0035" which in turn will lose oil pressure and also cause the crank to whip slightly
There are quite a few GTR engines that rev to 13,000 and 45psi boost with aftermarket cranks that seem to only cross drill keeping them at 90deg to the crank.
I am just a bit puzzled as to why you are so worried about centrifigal force when these engines run similar crank designs.
I think your issues are more in the feeding as stated by someone else how it feeds 2 rods of one main and also the oil hole phasing.
As for phasing there is more load on the crank about 15 to 20deg ATDC as the combustion process is in full swing as opposed to BTDC when there is still pressure applied but nowhere near as much, Having said this you need to pre empt this and time them a little earlier so as it has full oil pressure at this point
As for loosing HP with higher oil pressure, i would rather loose 7 to 10hp in knowing that my bearings are not going to run dry with the higher oil pressure, and taking into account that there are a number of 90deg turns in which you usually loose some pressure in the engine it is wise to test oil pressure at a number of locations with the last point of oiling usually the worst.
Don't mean to step on anyones toes, they are just some of my theories

seems like those nissan engineers know thier stuff... 1300 RPM ???

wow I would KILL to be able to ROAR that high in my RS
IllNastyImpreza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2008, 02:34 PM   #237
HamFist
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 2112
Join Date: Aug 2000
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Vehicle:
2000 Impreza 2.5RS
BRP

Default

Back in the day, from talking to a few sandrail guys, they were having rod stretch issues in our boxer engines from the "slidehammer" effect on the rod. Above 10k rpm, the rods would stretch and wreak all kinds of havoc. Input like what you've got is always valuable. You're running a straight 6 that's supposedly balanced similar to a boxer, but it treats the thrust forces differently to achieve its balance. They get 15k rpm out of our engines N/A for Japanese racing circuits and make just shy of 600hp in the process, but it takes a beefy bottom end, dry sump oiling, ITB's, and huge ports. They also cost $30k. 8-9k rpm is budgetable for my purposes out of a 2.5L. My n/a engine doesn't need 100psi of oil pressure, but it has to live at higher revs.
HamFist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2008, 03:27 PM   #238
IllNastyImpreza
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 36333
Join Date: May 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: East Kingston NH
Vehicle:
DIY project: life
I need more TIME!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HamFist View Post
Back in the day, from talking to a few sandrail guys, they were having rod stretch issues in our boxer engines from the "slidehammer" effect on the rod. Above 10k rpm, the rods would stretch and wreak all kinds of havoc. Input like what you've got is always valuable. You're running a straight 6 that's supposedly balanced similar to a boxer, but it treats the thrust forces differently to achieve its balance. They get 15k rpm out of our engines N/A for Japanese racing circuits and make just shy of 600hp in the process, but it takes a beefy bottom end, dry sump oiling, ITB's, and huge ports. They also cost $30k. 8-9k rpm is budgetable for my purposes out of a 2.5L. My n/a engine doesn't need 100psi of oil pressure, but it has to live at higher revs.
any link to a high reving NA boxer ??

I was not aware they had taken them that far
IllNastyImpreza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2008, 04:27 PM   #239
saintluciascooby
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 109527
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Chicago
Vehicle:
1997 GC8 8.38@165Mph
blue

Default

I do need (would like)100psi @ 9500 and will have a dry sump. What worries me is a post in another thread here were a dry sump setup is having trouble making 65psi@ 7000rpm with 20/50 oil.
saintluciascooby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2008, 03:52 AM   #240
widebodygtr
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 173337
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Australia
Vehicle:
1990 GTR Skyline
Bayside blue

Default

Hi, I currently run a dry sump setup and have no problems getting 100psi with 10/60 tws motorsport oil, but all i can suggest is that possibly he has not done his maths for the pulley sizes or is running a lot of bends or has not set his pressure relief properly.
I run a four stage with -12 lines for scavenge and inlet to the pump and
-10 lines for outlet to engine with a peterson filter, all lines are kept as straight as possible and as short as possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by saintluciascooby View Post
I do need (would like)100psi @ 9500 and will have a dry sump. What worries me is a post in another thread here were a dry sump setup is having trouble making 65psi@ 7000rpm with 20/50 oil.
widebodygtr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2008, 08:52 AM   #241
argument011
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 173438
Join Date: Mar 2008
Default

Is this possible? They drill a hole and chamfer it on the rod journal face of cranks for V8's. Does anyone do that for our cranks or has tried it? It improves oiling in that area, supposedly. It's a pretty standard thing on V8's...
argument011 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2008, 09:12 AM   #242
IllNastyImpreza
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 36333
Join Date: May 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: East Kingston NH
Vehicle:
DIY project: life
I need more TIME!

Default

^ why do people get banned so damn fast ???
IllNastyImpreza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2008, 09:17 AM   #243
Homemade WRX
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 33782
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: 3MI Racing LLC
Vehicle:
96 bastard child
search FIRST, then PM!!!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by widebodygtr View Post
Hi, I currently run a dry sump setup and have no problems getting 100psi with 10/60 tws motorsport oil, but all i can suggest is that possibly he has not done his maths for the pulley sizes or is running a lot of bends or has not set his pressure relief properly.
I run a four stage with -12 lines for scavenge and inlet to the pump and
-10 lines for outlet to engine with a peterson filter, all lines are kept as straight as possible and as short as possible.
someone who understands fluid mechanics and flow losses


edit:nevermind...saw why the new guy was already banned.
Homemade WRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2008, 01:09 PM   #244
modaddict
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 95840
Join Date: Sep 2005
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Pasco, WA
Vehicle:
sold to a good bud
awaiting next car

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by widebodygtr View Post
Now some of you are saying cross drill and some are saying don't and some of you say that it is because the oil hole is at 90deg.
The RB26 in gtr's run there oil holes at 90deg aswell and run 10psi of oil pressure per 1000revs but difference is they run full groove mains on top and bottom main bearings and numerous holes on the rod bearing bottom shell.

I am just a bit puzzled as to why you are so worried about centrifigal force when these engines run similar crank designs.
I think your issues are more in the feeding as stated by someone else how it feeds 2 rods of one main and also the oil hole phasing.
I would like to see the rod bearing size differences between the RB26 and an EJ257. Specifically, the diameter and width.

Do you have any pics?

Surface area comes into play as I too have thought about multiple holes in the bearing shell.....instead of the usual 1.
modaddict is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2008, 02:43 PM   #245
Homemade WRX
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 33782
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: 3MI Racing LLC
Vehicle:
96 bastard child
search FIRST, then PM!!!

Default

I've already looked into them and have a huge collection of bearing size and widths from when I was hunting down my source for a better bearing size.
The RB25/26 are essentially a 48mm diameter and 17.1mm wide. IIRC the VG30 and RB30 are the same as well.
We are 52mm (except phase 1 EJ25) and 16.5mm wide.
Homemade WRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2008, 04:30 PM   #246
modaddict
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 95840
Join Date: Sep 2005
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Pasco, WA
Vehicle:
sold to a good bud
awaiting next car

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
I've already looked into them and have a huge collection of bearing size and widths from when I was hunting down my source for a better bearing size.
The RB25/26 are essentially a 48mm diameter and 17.1mm wide. IIRC the VG30 and RB30 are the same as well.
We are 52mm (except phase 1 EJ25) and 16.5mm wide.
SO our journal speed is faster at the same rpm AND less surface area.
modaddict is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2008, 05:06 AM   #247
widebodygtr
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 173337
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Australia
Vehicle:
1990 GTR Skyline
Bayside blue

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by modaddict View Post
I would like to see the rod bearing size differences between the RB26 and an EJ257. Specifically, the diameter and width.

Do you have any pics?

Surface area comes into play as I too have thought about multiple holes in the bearing shell.....instead of the usual 1.
I will take some pics this week and post em up.
Does any company make a full groove bearing for 2 and 4 or can you modify a shell from 1,3 or 5 to fit.
Haven't taken a close look yyet
widebodygtr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2008, 08:16 AM   #248
Homemade WRX
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 33782
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: 3MI Racing LLC
Vehicle:
96 bastard child
search FIRST, then PM!!!

Default

we actually have 858mm^2 to their 820.8...but our bearing speed is faster
Homemade WRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2008, 09:46 AM   #249
IllNastyImpreza
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 36333
Join Date: May 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: East Kingston NH
Vehicle:
DIY project: life
I need more TIME!

Default

quick question... When my machine shop built my block, they used slightly oversized beaings ( as the originals where spun)

do you think these slightly oversized bearings will help with lubrication at all ??...

I wonder just how much bigger they went...

Quote:
Originally Posted by modaddict View Post
SO our journal speed is faster at the same rpm AND less surface area.
this might be an issue...
IllNastyImpreza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2008, 10:16 AM   #250
Homemade WRX
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 33782
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: 3MI Racing LLC
Vehicle:
96 bastard child
search FIRST, then PM!!!

Default

oversized bearings are such a small change I wouldn't really consider them to have any benefits
Homemade WRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Brembo cross-drilled and slotted rotors for $250 on ebay blaster88 Brakes, Steering & Suspension 1 04-25-2001 07:04 PM
Legacy GT cross drilled rotors jacksonww Legacy Forum 14 04-06-2001 09:07 AM
Cross-drilled Rotors ESPO99RS New England Impreza Club Forum -- NESIC 29 04-06-2001 12:40 AM
Cross drilled Rotors 1994subarusvx SVX Forum Archive 1 01-13-2001 03:40 AM
BRAKES- SLOTTED OR CROSS-DRILLED CRAZY KEN Legacy Forum 1 03-29-2000 05:22 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.