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Old 03-12-2006, 09:31 PM   #26
bboy
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I don't buy the oil pressure argument at least for oiling the crank. A few centrifugal force calculations and you'll see the oil is being flung out of the rod journals and no pressure is going to maintain it. I think it's got to be drilled to synch the oil pick-up with the flinging to keep a continous film of oil on the bearings.

Shimming works just like a fuel pressure regulator, the smaller apeture that shimming creates makes pressure behind it proportional to the size of the opening.

I'd ask Ron why he shims the pump. I'm not sure it's for the crank's benefit. The path of the oil through the engine may come into play and a reduced flow/volume with shimming could be beneficial. For instance if you push all the oil into the heads, there's nothing there for the crank, pistons, etc. I don't know, but Ron would.
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Old 03-16-2006, 11:09 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick_the_ginge
I was just pointing out the dynamics of oil, no disrespect meant. Try this, blow through one straw and then blow through 2. You will find that it's easier to blow through 2 at a time.

Now try this: Fill your mouth with water and squirt the water through a single straw. Measure how far you can squirt it. Now do the same with 2 straws but this time think about the extra effort you have to use to get the water to squirt the same distance.

Now think about a second hole in the crank again. I am not saying it's a bad thing, I'm saying you need to raise the oil pressure to account for it. One method of doing this is the extra shims in the oil pump. I've posted pictures and information on how to do this in the past, here are the pictures again.



Ron recommends this as well. unless you go with a dry sump system or better oil pump.
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Old 03-16-2006, 10:05 PM   #28
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im not seeing where the "shimming" is. do you shim the little allen nut and spring thingy?

~Josh~
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Old 03-20-2006, 01:03 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02Toyowrx
Yes and this solves the problems with the Subarus oiling system.
In regards to the dry sump set-up do you have first hand experience with this? If so would you like to share what info do you have?
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Old 03-20-2006, 08:17 PM   #30
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The little washer looking thingies are the shims. They "shim" a spring loaded pintle (you can see the spring in pic 1). By shimming the spring pushes the valve closed harder.
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Old 03-21-2006, 10:19 AM   #31
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The shim is to raise the by-pass relief valve pressure. The oil pump is a positive displacement pump, so at a given rpm it always moves the same amount of oil. Oil above and beyond what the bearings will actually accept, is bypassed by the relief valve.

For what its worth, most aftermarket crankshaft manufactures are no longer cross drilling racing cranks as is has not proven itself a useful modification to keep the engines alive. It was first used in low rpm high load diesel engines, and for a time was considered "the hot setup". Current wisdom is that it takes oil away from the rods, and adds an additional weak point for crank failure.

Its more important to "detail" the engines oil supply system in my opinion.

At high rpm, it takes pressure to drive the oil into the mains because your fighting centrifugal force which is trying to throw the oil back out of the main journal.

This is one of the reasons folks have started to run "honda" size main journals (in addition to lower bearing friction due to lower surface speeds)

At high rpm, oil pressures can become low enough in the center of the crank shaft main journal to cause gas dissolved in the oil to form bubbles, these can then block flow of liquid oil out to the rod journals. To prevent this form of bubble generation you must maintain high enough system oil pressures to prevent bubble generation at high rpms. Anything that tends to drop oil pressure inside the journal at high rpm is counterproductive.

http://www.engin.umd.umich.edu./rese...w-2004.doc.pdf

http://www.tytlabs.co.jp/english/rev..._044suzuki.pdf

http://www.rehermorrison.com/techTalk/51.htm

The subaru 2.0 L wrx crank is already a cross drilled design. The main journal has an oil passage that passes all the way across the journal, as does the rod journal. These are connected by a passage drilled to pass through the center of the rod journal passage to the center of the main journal passage.

So at high rpm the oil pressure must be suffecient to push oil against centrifugal force into the center of the main journal. That is an oil column 30 mm long. If any of you physics/engineer types want to tackle figuring out the oil pressure due to centrifugal force at the journal at 8000 rpm it would be useful to the discussion.

FWIW

Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 03-21-2006 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 03-21-2006, 10:45 AM   #32
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I'm guessing that we're talking about a pseudo oil-squirter that lets oil out of the crankshaft to shoot towards the piston/wrist-pin? Obviously we're not talking about lubricating the area where the rod connects to the crank, since that already has such a hole.

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Old 03-21-2006, 11:05 AM   #33
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Quote:
Obviously we're not talking about lubricating the area where the rod connects to the crank, since that already has such a hole.
No we are not talking about the wrist pin.
Yes we are talking about oil to the rod and main bearing journals, not the wristpin which is oiled by oil sling off the crank.

Larry
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Old 03-21-2006, 11:55 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod
No we are not talking about the wrist pin.
Yes we are talking about oil to the rod and main bearing journals, not the wristpin which is oiled by oil sling off the crank.

Larry
And the oil scraped off the cylinder wall by the the oil rings too.

S.
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Old 03-21-2006, 01:22 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod
No we are not talking about the wrist pin.
Yes we are talking about oil to the rod and main bearing journals, not the wristpin which is oiled by oil sling off the crank.

Larry
Sooooo ... don't the rod journals already have an oil-line running from the crankshaft to them as seen here: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ft_drawing.jpg

Are we talking about adding another hole? Sorry for being lost here.
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Old 03-21-2006, 01:26 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n2xlr8n
And the oil scraped off the cylinder wall by the the oil rings too.

S.
Which comes from oil being slung off the crank into the cyllinder walls. :P
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Old 03-21-2006, 01:47 PM   #37
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Quote:
don't the rod journals already have an oil-line running from the crankshaft to them
Yes they do --- the problem is how that oil feed is supplied with oil. Each of the journals are already cross drilled so as far as the original question for this thread it is a moot point. You can't add cross drilling if it already exists.

The question is now is cross drilling a good thing to do, and the pro's say no not for a high rpm engine. It works great right up to the point that high rpm centrifugal force cuts off effective oil flow to the rod bearings.

The problem with cross drilled journals of the design used in the subaru is where the oil feed intesects the oil passage in the main journal. As drilled on the 2.0 L wrx crank the oil feed hole goes from the center of the rod journal to the center of the main journal passage. That means that before the oil can even enter the oil feed passage to the connecting rod journal, it must move against centrifugal force into the center of the main journal. At high RPM that centrifugal force creates enough reverse pressure to nearly stop all oil feed to the rod journal.

Lets grab some numbers out of the air. The Stock subaru oil pump has its pressure relief valve set at 71 psi for the high pressure relief. Based on the long standing rule of thumb that you need 10 psi for each 1000 rpm of crank speed, that means the oil system is not suitable for extended time above 7000 rpm.

[ edit correction ] 71 psi is the relief pressure on the non-turbo engines, turbo engines relief valve is set at 85 psi, so the oil pressure is just adequate for 8000 rpm, with a non-cross drilled crank, but stock bearing clearances may not be loose enough. Many domestic race engine builders will not run bearing clearences tighter than 3.5 thousands of an inch to keep their 8000-9000+ rpm engines alive. [end edit]

Lets say at 8000 rpm you have that pressure valve limited system pressure at 71 psi and the centrifugal force trying to throw the oil out of the main bearing cross drilled passage is creating 40 psi of pressure (just an educated guess), your real flow is what you would get at a system pressure of 31 psi at low rpm. Now add to that the fact that in a cross drilled passage you have centrifugal force trying to pull the oil out both sides of the passage, so you end up putting a strong suction on the oil near the center of the bearing journal. At high oil temps and with just a bit of air absorbed in the oil, all of a sudden you have gasses coming out of solution in the oil at the center of the crank journal so what little flow you have to the rod journal now has bubbles in it.

Any slight hickup in oil supply pressure due to sucking a bit of air at the oil pan pickup during a hard turn or launch and bang you just lost all oil pressure to the rods at the worst possible time (ie high rpm).

On the conventional drilling, ( the so-called V passage in the ref article) the oil passage from the rod journal to the main journal intersects the main oil feed very near the surface of the journal so it has to fight much less centrifugal force to get into the passage leading to the rod. Its not a huge improvement but enough to significantly reduce the likelyhood of generating bubbles in the oil.

Since the subaru has 360 degree grooved mains (behind the bearing shell) in the block, cross drilling is sort of meaningless anyway as oil is fed to the bearing at each oil feed hole in the bearing.

Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 03-27-2006 at 08:52 AM.
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Old 03-21-2006, 02:34 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaabTuner
Sooooo ... don't the rod journals already have an oil-line running from the crankshaft to them as seen here: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ft_drawing.jpg

Are we talking about adding another hole? Sorry for being lost here.
That's the way they are drilled. And yes a second hole/tube.

Along the centerline (axis) of the crank the centrifugal force is zero (or nearly). As the radius increases so does the outward force. As the speed of the crank increases (RPM) the force with which oil is being flung increases exponentially. (Sit at the center of a merry-go-round and you are not flung outward, you just spin-->see also spining of tops and gyroscopes)

Now, oil enters (under oil pressure) the one hole of the main journal at the centerline (or near it) and gets flung (scientific term) out toward the rod journal. This is happening constantly (i.e. nothing to do with the engine's cycle).

We do have spun rod bearings so something wrong is happening.

The fear is that with just one hole, the rate of oil entering the main journal (under oil pressure) will not equal the rate of oiling leaving the tube that connects the main and rod journals (can you say vacuum in the oiling tube-->cavatation). When oil leaves faster than it is fed into the tube, due to high centirfugal force, starvation at the rod bearing is a possibility.

The addition of a second hole (that flings more oil to the rods) will at least help. It provides a second path for oil to move from the main journal to the rod journal. To some degree the fling can be controlled to provide oil at a certain position in the pistons cycle by the position of the hole on the rod journal (even though the centrifugal flow/force is constant, at least there can be oil flung when it's needed the most).

As far as I understand the term "cross-drilling". Our rod journals are not cross-drilled.

Centrifugal Force=mass*rotation^2*radius
I can't remember the units or I calculate a psi for a oil droplet at the rod bearing. The main thing to observe is that as rotation speed increases, the force increases by it's square. The difference between 7000 RPM and 8000 RPM is huge!!
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Old 03-21-2006, 02:35 PM   #39
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My cliff notes (please correct if wrong!):

Additional cross drilling is not good for high RPM due to centrifugal force on the crank/rod/oil causing reduced oil pressure at the bearing.
More oil pressure is required to maintain oil pressure at bearings at high RPM due to previously mentioned centrifugal force.
Stock drilled crank + shimmed oil pump + high RPM FTW!
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Old 03-21-2006, 02:43 PM   #40
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As far as I understand the term "cross-drilled" our crankshaft journals are not, and the drilling modification of our cranks offered by several vendors are not cross-drilled either.
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Old 03-21-2006, 04:43 PM   #41
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Quote:
As far as I understand the term "cross-drilled" our crankshaft journals are not, and the drilling modification of our cranks offered by several vendors are not cross-drilled either.
Both the main journals and the rod journals are drilled all the way through ( across the diameter of the journal) That is the definition of crossdrilled. If you stick a rod in the oil feed hole on the main journal it comes out the opposite side of the journal, not out the rod journal as it would on some cranks.

This web page has a picture of a subaru crank. http://www.drive.subaru.com/SubaruDr...ton-Cranky.asp

Closer look at the cross drilled journals in a broken crankshaft.
http://www.demeis.com/images/mcrankcrack.jpg

The oil feed holes you see are drilled through and through the journals, across the diameter of the journal. If you look closely at the ends of the rod journals you will see a small depression this is the plugged end of the connecting passage that passes through the "center" of both cross drills in the rod journals and the main journals.


As you can see here, the main journals are fed 360 degrees behind the bearing shell.

http://www.demeis.com/images/mspunjourn.jpg

This web page shows conventionally drilled crankshaft where the oil feed galley to the rod journal comes directly off the surface of the main journal.

http://www.mustangandfords.com/howto/29178/

Some engines plug one end of the cross drilled journal with a soft plug, some Porsche 912's and some Alfas do that. If the soft plug comes out the oil pressure drops about 5 psi. In MGA's the soft plug is a restrictor (has a small hole in it) to force more oil into the rod galley than out the other side of the main bearing.
Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 03-21-2006 at 05:39 PM.
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Old 03-21-2006, 05:26 PM   #42
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Yes mains are cross-drilled but not the rod journals. It's the passage from the mains to the rod journals that is the trouble spot. I've never heard of a spun main bearing, at least not from high RPM.
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Old 03-21-2006, 05:39 PM   #43
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Quote:
Yes mains are cross-drilled but not the rod journals.
Hmmm then why can I look all the way through the hole that goes through the rod journal of the crankshaft I have sitting beside me ?

Both the mains and the rod journals are cross drilled.

As you say the mains are not the problem, the problem is inadequate flow to the rod journal. By having a cross drilled main, you have two paths for the oil, one to the rod journal passage and the other out the opposite side of the main. This "leak" reduces oil flow to the rod, so the main has plenty of oil but at high rpm the rod journal is throwing off oil faster than it can be re-supplied by the main oil feed. If the oil gets just a hint of air in it, the rod runs out of oil as it slings the oil out and pulls that air out of the center of the main bearing journal cross drill passage.

The solution might be as simple as what MGA did and put a soft plug in one side of the main journal cross drill passage.



Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 03-21-2006 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 03-21-2006, 07:48 PM   #44
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Well that settles it. They are cross drilled. I don't remember that, but the rods were on the crank when Axis returned it.
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Old 03-21-2006, 10:36 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
Well that settles it. They are cross drilled. I don't remember that, but the rods were on the crank when Axis returned it.
bboy, you have a 2.5l and Hotrod is talking about a 2.0l.
is the 2.5l cross drilled? obviously the 2.0l is.
just wanted to make sure everyone was on the same page.
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Old 03-21-2006, 10:55 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modaddict
bboy, you have a 2.5l and Hotrod is talking about a 2.0l.
is the 2.5l cross drilled? obviously the 2.0l is.
just wanted to make sure everyone was on the same page.
EJ257 is the same.

S.
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Old 03-22-2006, 02:34 AM   #47
hotrod
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If anyone have one of the JDM crankshafts laying around? I would love to see the changes they made in the oil supply drillings. I understand it was different but have never seen one up close and personal.

Larry
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Old 03-22-2006, 03:59 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jam69007
so have you done this, or know someone who has? i would definetly like to see some install pics if you have any.
Ive done a 3 stage in the past, dont have any pictures.. sorry.
Currently im in the process of putting together a more extensive 5 stage, which I can take pictures of. Ill keep you updated, this is an ongoing project.
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Old 03-22-2006, 04:02 AM   #49
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If any pin is crossdrilled like the picture above wouldnt that not be good? crankshaft spinning at X-rpm's which way is the oil sposed to flow, or does it kind of fight itself back and forth?
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Old 03-22-2006, 07:12 AM   #50
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Not sure what your asking, the cross drill is intended to give the oil 2 different paths to get to the oil galley that runs up the the crank throw to the rod. The the oil comes out both holes on the rod journal.

Cross drilling works great up to the critical rpm where the centrifugal force in the cross drilled hole is generating as much pressure as the oil pump, then oil flow pretty much shuts off to the rod. It pulls a hard enough vacuum on the center of the cross drill to cause dissolved gases to come out of solution in the oil and the only oil getting to the rod is foam. If the "event" only lasts for a second or so, the oil film does not completely break down but does allow some contact between the bearing and the rod journal. If it lasts a fraction of a second too long, you spin a bearing and toss a rod through the side of the block.

I found a couple of interesting pictures folks might want to look at, go to Cobbs web site and look at their engine components section

http://cobbtuning.com/wrx/engine-internals.html#rods

-- look closely at their new billet crankshaft, it is NOT cross drilled at the main journals or rods. The crank is carefully postioned so you cannot see how it is drilled, but you can clearly see it is not cross drilled.
(sometimes what you cannot see is as useful as what you can )

If you go to rallispec's site:
http://www.rallispec.com/

Check out their RST-0105 EJ20 (Phase II) STi crank for the 2.0L engine you can see that the oil holes in the mains are not the same as the USDM 2.0 L cranks. It appears to me that they converted the oil drill pattern to the V drill mentioned in the tech paper I posted a few threads ago, but the picture resolution is poor enough that there is a bit of doubt regarding the actual lay out. It is clear that the JDM STi 2.0 L crank is not cross drilled at the mains like the USDM engine but will reserver comment until I get to see one up close and personal.

The Graham Good Racing crankshaft appears it "may" be crossdrilled on the mains but the oil drillings to the rods are clearly re-timed, from the OEM positon.

Ron at Axis power racing does not show a picture of a naked crank on his website ( perfectly reasonable given time he has spent on R&D to come up with his drill layout)

Crawford shows a picture of his cranks but they do not show any useful view of the mains and crank throws other than he uses a one sided oil relief on the main oil feed hole instead of the OEM double relief on the USDM crank.

Likewise the Cosworth crank is also clearly not cross drilled ( or photo retouched to hide the oil drillings as the best photo I've seen of it appears not to have any oil drillings visable from the view provided )

It is clear that everyone who makes big power on these engines is dropping the cross drill USDM OEM design in favor of other drilling patterns. That should tell you something about how to solve rod oiling problems on the WRX.

Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 03-22-2006 at 07:42 AM.
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