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Old 08-19-2007, 11:17 PM   #201
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Post #126

EDIT: nope I was wrong, the spec c doesn't have the rod journals cross drilled, my bad.
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Old 08-19-2007, 11:56 PM   #202
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Default 1000 rpms more

Ok so everybody thinks that because straight 4s spin 8 or 9k a subie needs to? yeah it would be really nice and I would like to hear mine singing the song like everyone else. But whats wrong with making all the hp and lots of torque at 7500 and being happy with that. I live close to a highway and when I'm out in the shop I sometimes hear a crotchrocket singing the song and have to pause to see how long he stays in it. I've heard it so much on honda bikes that it still gives me chills. Even my sportster at 7500 is kinda neat. Needless to say a sportster won't live very long at 7500. I spent 4k trying to make it outrun hondas. My son traded a Integra GSR for the STI and he also misses the higher rpms. But I don't like to deal with spun bearings either so a revlimiter will have to limit it slightly. If you have the power you won't be wasting time shifting, if the power will support taller gears. And maybe till we find a better solution to cross drilling, 360 degree main shells, 12mm pumps, better cams and springs and a big turbo we might get reliability at 8k.

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Last edited by charliew; 10-22-2007 at 12:43 PM.
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Old 08-20-2007, 12:32 AM   #203
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I agree with you there charlie but when 8k isn't enough or doesn't reach your goals what then?...you have to flow more air to make more power or desire a taller powerband to take advantage of shorter gearing. When that comes, well, you then have a thread like this and that's why we are having it...sorry but a 2.5 at 8.5k isn't going to cut it for me. A 2.7 at 8k won't either...
just my $0.02,
Micah
p.s. I think most in this thread are trying to do just a little more than the normal rotated set up on an sti...for some 500 whp just isn't enough
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Old 08-20-2007, 12:37 AM   #204
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Quote:
1-3-5 are exactly where Subaru are now cross drilling their cranks, they are the main journals that feeds the rods.

Just to avoid some confusion and misuse of terminology --
The stock 2002 WRX had a fully cross drilled crank! (post #43 page 2 has a picture of the OEM wrx crank from the 2 liter engine)

Cross drilling a crank refers to there being a single hole that passes all the way across the main journal forming 2 openings 180 degrees apart both feeding a galley drilled from the rod which intersects at the center of that cross drill. The term has been in use since the 1950's for that design. The "newer" cranks are now cross drilled with 2 passages. The term cross drilling has nothing to do with the X pattern formed by the two holes.

These are simply double drilled cranks. The design still has the limitation of being forced to fight centrifugal force to get the oil into the center of the journal before it can get to the rod. By providing 4 passage openings to the main bearing it will also increase oil loss from the main bearing so oil pump volume flow will need to be higher to maintain the same oil pressure in all likelyhood.

There are specially designed crank drillings that do not pass all the way through the crank journal and do not force the oil to go all the way to the center of the main journal to get to the oil feed galley to the rod bearing. The drill the passage from the rod to the main at a diagonal that breaks out of the main journal at its surface or very near it to another highly angled drill passage coming in from the main. This sort of drilling is used in many domestic V-8 engines to allow them to live at high rpms. In the journal sizes common for domestic V-8's the cross drilled pattern begins to fail at about 8,000 rpm give or take a bit.

Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 08-20-2007 at 12:43 AM.
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Old 08-20-2007, 12:45 AM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod View Post
These are simply double drilled cranks. The design still has the limitation of being forced to fight centrifugal force to get the oil into the center of the journal before it can get to the rod. By providing 4 passage openings to the main bearing it will also increase oil loss from the main bearing so oil pump volume flow will need to be higher to maintain the same oil pressure in all likelyhood.
I agree with you on both counts but a "straigh shot" oiled crank still has the same issue with centrifugal force but just with the mass of one have volume of the cross drilling or 1/4 that of the double cross drilled crank.

I really wish one of my local machine shops had a guy worth a poop running their 6-axis cnc lathe...
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Old 08-20-2007, 01:25 AM   #206
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This is a Ferrari V-12 crankshaft and has the same sort of high angle drilling used in American V-8's to keep them alive at high rpm.

(source http://www.rpmvt.com/2007/06/drilling-crankshafts.html)
http://www.rpmvt.com/uploaded_images...807-714988.JPG

And for those of you who missed it in earlier discussions on crank drilling heres is the account by Rehr Morrision why the cross drill design should be avoided in high rpm engines. (Rehr Morrison is one of the premier racing engine builders in the U.S.)
http://www.rehermorrison.com/techTalk/51.htm

How many of you thoroughly clean the crank shaft oil galleys after you kill an engine before you rebuild it ?

Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 08-20-2007 at 01:54 AM.
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Old 08-20-2007, 11:44 AM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod View Post
This is a Ferrari V-12 crankshaft and has the same sort of high angle drilling used in American V-8's to keep them alive at high rpm.

(source http://www.rpmvt.com/2007/06/drilling-crankshafts.html)
http://www.rpmvt.com/uploaded_images...807-714988.JPG

And for those of you who missed it in earlier discussions on crank drilling heres is the account by Rehr Morrision why the cross drill design should be avoided in high rpm engines. (Rehr Morrison is one of the premier racing engine builders in the U.S.)
http://www.rehermorrison.com/techTalk/51.htm

How many of you thoroughly clean the crank shaft oil galleys after you kill an engine before you rebuild it ?

Larry
it's interesting, it looks like the 2nd main is double drilled?

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Old 08-20-2007, 12:08 PM   #208
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I really appreciate the thorough explanation of the drillings in the crank. In my case I was aware of the terminology but got lazy in my expression of crossdrilling. Since the factory crank is already cross drilled I meant adding another 90 degree drilling to the crank. The ferrari stuff is neat. Boy, look how wide the mains are. Don't the wrc guys spin more than 8k? I wish someone would share their expertise on these motors. Also while I was studing thrust bearings I got to thinking about the oil holes in the grooves in the shell. It looks like those holes could be elongated to add more volume to go with the additional drilling of the crank. Maybe even deepen the groove in the block. That and adequate pressure to go with the 12mm volume seems to me would help. Also I wonder how much excessive end play reduces the volume to 2 and 3 rods on phase 1 motors, but in that regard P2 motors don't have the sides at all. Also since the thrust has been moved to #5 how does this effect the oil control at #3 main to supply #2 and #3 rods. I like the idea of the thrust at #3 main to keep the oil pushed out to the rods, what I don't like is the smaller thrust surface area of the center thrust bearing. These big pressure pressure plates are probably killing the thrust bearings. In that regard the thrust needs to be at #5. I wonder why we can't use two thrust bearings, maybe allowing for the different expansion rates of the crank and block. Maybe after adding a rear thrust to a P1, giving the center thrust more clearance so it's just trying to hold the oil in? Also is this style of pump good at any rpm and is the pickup large enough for the volume at the rpms your trying to achieve? Larry, and Homemade, and any one else, would you please comment? Once it gets cooler outside I won't bother you guys so much.

Charlie

Last edited by charliew; 08-20-2007 at 12:17 PM.
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Old 08-20-2007, 12:25 PM   #209
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WRC engines do not run high RPMs....they run a restrictor plate that effectively makes their powerband exist in the 2400~5500 rpm ranges.
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Old 08-20-2007, 12:28 PM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charliew View Post
Also is this style of pump good at any rpm and is the pickup large enough for the volume at the rpms your trying to achieve?
Charlie
let me ask you charlie, are you worried about pumping too much oil into the heads, with the larger pump? Thus, starving the motor for oil, destroying your rod bearings, and starting this all over?
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Old 08-20-2007, 12:43 PM   #211
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plain and simple... what will it take for a 9500rpm redline safely ???
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Old 08-20-2007, 01:24 PM   #212
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plain and simple... what will it take for a 9500rpm redline safely ???
a honda s2000

safely? a good 20k.

custom block
custom crank
custom bearings
custom oil pump
custom rods (prolly titanium)
custom pistons for your rods

lots of pain and custom suffering.
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Old 08-20-2007, 01:36 PM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IllNastyImpreza View Post
plain and simple... what will it take for a 9500rpm redline safely ???
I think that's what we are trying to find
I'm first using a factory crank and then a billet crank...then I'll be going to a drysump set up.

Charlie, I have commented on here before about running double thrust bearing setups to guys running EJ22t's as they are going to have the machining for it anyhow.
I'd personally like to test it if I run into issues running a heavy push style triple plate.
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Old 08-20-2007, 01:38 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by IllNastyImpreza View Post
plain and simple... what will it take for a 9500rpm redline safely ???
just to reiterate what I said earlier:

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Old 08-20-2007, 01:53 PM   #215
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charliew and I will be using larger oil sumps to help with any such oil starvation problem when using a larger oil pump. Most likely we will not be doing a considerable amount of autoxing so the extended high rpm runs will be kept at a minimum. We may be doing some drag racing however, but the oil starvation problem will be less likely on straight, 1/4 mile runs.
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Old 08-20-2007, 02:08 PM   #216
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just to reiterate what I said earlier:

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ROFL...yeah but those aren't the expensive parts...my custom rods, pistons, crank and 6-spd dogbox are...

the rest of the build doesn't seem to hurt nearly as much

oh yeah, 14mm headstuds aren't too cheap either
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Old 08-20-2007, 03:02 PM   #217
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it's interesting, it looks like the 2nd main is double drilled?
I had noticed that too but it looks like they come out at one point on the other side...can't quite make it out.
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Old 08-21-2007, 12:15 AM   #218
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I didn't remember the deal about restricter plates on the wrc cars, I guess that saved the guys a bunch of money. I'm not at all worried about pumping too much oil to the heads, as wittmer25 said earlier. My subie has a larger capacity oil pan that I don't think I can run at high rpm long enough to empty. It's got a Kennedy oil pan kit with gates from a Speedway Motors sbc claimer kit. It's short and wide. I'm just mainly building a street motor. One is for a 914 and the other is a manx style dune buggy. I've been on the buggy awhile and have decided the 914 will be simpler to finish so have started accumilating parts in that direction.

When the guys run on a track with stock pans why couldn't they just run an extra quart of oil? When I was making my pan I poured water in it to check for leaks. when the dipstick says full the oil is quite a ways down in the pan. Try it on a stock pan and check to where the extra quart comes to. don't forget the filter holds about a cup or two. Push the dip stick tube in the pan and put the dip stick in and check it out. All of the people that do vw subie conversions use short pans that have about 1&1/2 to 2 inches cut off and they run the same amount of oil, they say without problems. It's just an idea. Sorry for getting off subject a little.

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Last edited by charliew; 08-21-2007 at 12:28 AM.
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Old 08-21-2007, 06:56 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by hotrod View Post
And for those of you who missed it in earlier discussions on crank drilling heres is the account by Rehr Morrision why the cross drill design should be avoided in high rpm engines. (Rehr Morrison is one of the premier racing engine builders in the U.S.)
http://www.rehermorrison.com/techTalk/51.htm
very interesting.

seems to me that you can effectively eliminate a cross drilled gallery by welding up one side.

it won't be as good as a purpose-drilled "high speed" gallery, but it's a step in the right direction.

ken
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Old 08-21-2007, 01:56 PM   #220
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seems to me that you can effectively eliminate a cross drilled gallery by welding up one side.

it won't be as good as a purpose-drilled "high speed" gallery, but it's a step in the right direction.

I think it was the old MG's (it is here some where but I can't find it right now) pressed a brass plug in one end of a cross drilled crank. If the plug came out, oil pressure dropped 5 psi.

Larry
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Old 08-21-2007, 02:29 PM   #221
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its too bad that cobb or axis don't offer a decent block built for high revs....

or do they??
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Old 09-15-2007, 01:06 PM   #222
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I didn't remember the deal about restricter plates on the wrc cars, I guess that saved the guys a bunch of money.
FAR from it. The thermal loading as well as the basic mechanical stresses are outasight.

That's a good point to keep in mind though... when you see something modified a certain way, it's imporant to think of what problems they have that they're trying to solve. They're not worried about high RPM operation in WRC just the same as Ferrari isn't worried about running extreme boost in a high compression engine with the thermal loads associated with trying to keep a turbo maxed out despite the best efforts of a restrictor...
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Old 09-15-2007, 04:43 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by hotrod View Post
Just to avoid some confusion and misuse of terminology --
The stock 2002 WRX had a fully cross drilled crank! (post #43 page 2 has a picture of the OEM wrx crank from the 2 liter engine)

Cross drilling a crank refers to there being a single hole that passes all the way across the main journal forming 2 openings 180 degrees apart both feeding a galley drilled from the rod which intersects at the center of that cross drill. The term has been in use since the 1950's for that design. The "newer" cranks are now cross drilled with 2 passages. The term cross drilling has nothing to do with the X pattern formed by the two holes.

These are simply double drilled cranks. The design still has the limitation of being forced to fight centrifugal force to get the oil into the center of the journal before it can get to the rod. By providing 4 passage openings to the main bearing it will also increase oil loss from the main bearing so oil pump volume flow will need to be higher to maintain the same oil pressure in all likelyhood.

There are specially designed crank drillings that do not pass all the way through the crank journal and do not force the oil to go all the way to the center of the main journal to get to the oil feed galley to the rod bearing. The drill the passage from the rod to the main at a diagonal that breaks out of the main journal at its surface or very near it to another highly angled drill passage coming in from the main. This sort of drilling is used in many domestic V-8 engines to allow them to live at high rpms. In the journal sizes common for domestic V-8's the cross drilled pattern begins to fail at about 8,000 rpm give or take a bit.

Larry
Hotrod, I don't know where you come up with this knowledge, but thank you for explaining the finer details. I am battling this problem as I type this. My crank was drilled per my builder's specs and I suspect that the oil pressure loss is due to this practice. I am in the process of installing the 12mm JDM pump into my system to band-aid the situation. Seems silly to cross drill if Phil Grabow is spinning his motor harder than anyone in this thread, winning time attacks, and using only the stock oil pump and crankshaft . This is without problems and verified by tearing down the motor after part of the race season.

Thanks Hotrod
CP

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Old 02-09-2008, 12:59 AM   #224
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Anyone have any "straws" they can push through the Spec C's crank?
I would want to drill my 2.0L/2.2L cranks to be the same if possible.
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Old 02-09-2008, 11:18 AM   #225
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Anyone have any "straws" they can push through the Spec C's crank?
I would want to drill my 2.0L/2.2L cranks to be the same if possible.
I posted these pictures several years ago:

Quote:
Here is a shot of a Version 7 RA Spec C crank:





As you can see, this factory crank (rated to 8300 rpm from Subaru) uses the dual drilled oil feeds on all three case surfaces.
The Spec C crank simply has a second set of thru-drilled holes, 90 degrees from the first set.

Jeff
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