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Old 09-08-2013, 11:22 AM   #1
neb_subi
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Default Reaching for that 600+ number

Before you bash please keep in mind this is a build i want achieve. I greatly appreciate input, suggestions and advice. Best thing ive ever learned from the army is respect goes along way.

Start off firstly i have a 2004 sti. Stock motor, ID1000's, walbro 255 fuel pump, rotated gt35, tgv delete, etc goes on (the little things)
I currently have a tune on e85 at 19psi pushing about 417hp, figured that was a nice little range since the motor is stock.

I am wanting to get into higher HP as i personally feel the need for more. Spent a little time into researching a few possabilities but wanted to check on topic and get some suggestions.

For this build i am contemplating either sleeving a block and putting 100mm pistons.
-ej257 sleeved
-Mahle 100mm powerpak pistons (what compression)
-Manley Rods (I or H beam)
-possibly cosworth rods?
-acl race main/rod bearings (good enough?)
-balanced rotating assembly
-apr bolts all around
-Cosworth head gaskets
-11mm oil pump (will it be enough)
-Killer B oil pan with pick up (maybe just a stock?)
(any other suggestions or changes to this list please comment)
***********
Now for heads i figured getting them ported and polished but as for valves,springs retainers need to be upgraded i assume what do you recommend? Put some 272 cams in but what brand do most prefer to go with.

Now as for turbo, manifold etc i currently have the gt35 with a .63? hotside. Will the turbo i currently have get me to the 600+ range, i know alot of people mention twin scroll. Maybe rotate the manifold and use 2000cc injectors.

A few questions id like to ask towards the subaru family:

-Should i sleeve a block to achieve this hp range or stick with standard bore

-Is 100mm too much if sleeving

-What compression range should i stay within

-Will i need a dry sump or anything like that

-Anything i am missing that i will definitely need to get 600hp

As i mentioned before any suggestions, recommendations, insight and help are welcome and appreciated

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Last edited by neb_subi; 09-08-2013 at 12:10 PM. Reason: added text
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Old 09-08-2013, 11:56 AM   #2
What v8
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I would definitely sleeve the block and 100mm is not too big for sleeves. If you are staying with e85 I would do 9:1 compression. I am shooting for 600whp on my build as well but in going to be on the limit of a couple things on mine. My turbo (gtx3582) is going to be pushed to its absolute max, so you are probably going to need to go bigger. U will probably hit mid 500s on ur current turbo. And my fuel syatem im still on a single pump which I am going to be maxing out as well (even tho is is a 450lph.) I would do a surge tank set up with dual external pumps. Hope this helps.
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Old 09-08-2013, 12:59 PM   #3
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I doubt you would need to sleeve the block to make 600whp, however machine work and tuning is going to decide how long it lasts.

I am in the same boat, just lost my stock 2.0 and trying to decide on a parts list for what I want with the same power goals.
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Old 09-08-2013, 04:09 PM   #4
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Im looking into rebuilding my 05 sti motor.
Any tips on how i should get to 450+ whp?
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Old 09-08-2013, 04:34 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 05pearwhitesti View Post
Im looking into rebuilding my 05 sti motor.
Any tips on how i should get to 450+ whp?
The forum is a good place to get a bunch of opinions.

Here is mine. For a built block, a running long block in your case, you need close to 10k to get that done and even more for all the extras, fuel, turbo exhaust, intercooler etc.

I would personally hook up with a shop that had done a bunch of these builds and go with thier recomendations and experience.

Some good ones that come to mind,

Innovative, Maxwell Power Services, P&L, Element, and i am sure im missing a bunch.

My point is, the only really good advice is gonna come from those that have the experience. Are you willing to risk your hard earned 10k+ on a build and not reap the reward because someome less experienced is a buddy, builds V8s, hondas, slaps it together, etc?

I wish you sucess on your build and hopefully you will make a well informed choice before spending any money. Get every detail in writing, including who is responsible for what, even if something goes wrong.
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Old 09-08-2013, 05:31 PM   #6
reemwrb04sti
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neb_subi View Post
Before you bash please keep in mind this is a build i want achieve. I greatly appreciate input, suggestions and advice. Best thing ive ever learned from the army is respect goes along way.

Start off firstly i have a 2004 sti. Stock motor, ID1000's, walbro 255 fuel pump, rotated gt35, tgv delete, etc goes on (the little things)
I currently have a tune on e85 at 19psi pushing about 417hp, figured that was a nice little range since the motor is stock.

I am wanting to get into higher HP as i personally feel the need for more. Spent a little time into researching a few possabilities but wanted to check on topic and get some suggestions.

For this build i am contemplating either sleeving a block and putting 100mm pistons.
-ej257 sleeved
-Mahle 100mm powerpak pistons (what compression)
-Manley Rods (I or H beam)
-possibly cosworth rods?
-acl race main/rod bearings (good enough?)
-balanced rotating assembly
-apr bolts all around
-Cosworth head gaskets
-11mm oil pump (will it be enough)
-Killer B oil pan with pick up (maybe just a stock?)
(any other suggestions or changes to this list please comment)
***********
Now for heads i figured getting them ported and polished but as for valves,springs retainers need to be upgraded i assume what do you recommend? Put some 272 cams in but what brand do most prefer to go with.

Now as for turbo, manifold etc i currently have the gt35 with a .63? hotside. Will the turbo i currently have get me to the 600+ range, i know alot of people mention twin scroll. Maybe rotate the manifold and use 2000cc injectors.

A few questions id like to ask towards the subaru family:

-Should i sleeve a block to achieve this hp range or stick with standard bore

-Is 100mm too much if sleeving

-What compression range should i stay within

-Will i need a dry sump or anything like that

-Anything i am missing that i will definitely need to get 600hp

As i mentioned before any suggestions, recommendations, insight and help are welcome and appreciated

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Acl race bearings is good enough...11mm oil pump will work..I would def do the Manley I beam rods for peace of mind..I have them as well ..keep your same turbo but upgrade it to a hta86 thru forced performance and change the back housing from a .63 to a .82 so the car doesn't choke up top..stock or cosworth head gaskets are good and also Arp L19 head studs or A1 h11 head studs...if you have the extra cash the sleeved block won't hurt..just peace of mind..if you aren't sleeving it I would stay stock bore you don't want to have 100mm pistons on stock sleeves aiming for 600whp..they will prob crack
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Old 09-08-2013, 07:33 PM   #7
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Get 17k. Call Dom at MPS, select turbo, send money. Done.
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Old 09-09-2013, 11:39 AM   #8
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If you have any questions regarding the engine build and/or looking for an engine builder, feel free to contact us and we can point you in the right direction!

Dave,
TPG Tuning
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Old 09-09-2013, 12:03 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scby rex View Post
Get 17k. Call Dom at MPS, select turbo, send money. Done.
17K for 600whp yikes...
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Old 09-09-2013, 12:12 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post

17K for 600whp yikes...
True, but you have to factor in reliability as the op was interested in.

A "do it yourself er" could definitely get there cheaper.

Or his current setup with bigger injectors, pump and a 6466 could do it right? You got stock rods in yours
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Old 09-09-2013, 12:34 PM   #11
toph
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17K is still way too much, even for an insane motor from MPS. I wouldn't sleeve a motor, closed deck is a much better and reliable option IMO and stock sleeves won't hold up to that power level for long.
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Old 09-09-2013, 01:27 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toph View Post
I wouldn't sleeve a motor, closed deck is a much better and reliable option IMO and stock sleeves won't hold up to that power level for long.
If you correctly sleeve an engine, there is nothing to worry about...
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Old 09-09-2013, 01:50 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baseballdbk1 View Post
If you correctly sleeve an engine, there is nothing to worry about...

Agreed, Also the price range of 17k isn't that far out if they plan on making 600WHP for more then just the dyno pull.

You just need to find a good machine shop to do the sleeves, keep track of what they take off on the block when they deck it, and how much you take off on the heads when the do the porting work and decking. Selecting the right head gaskets is real important.

Additional Work you will need is some cnc port work, open up the heads, and some sort of cams. If its a DD then i would suggest the GSC S2 Cams. (Make sure the springs you get will work at the boost and RPM level you are targetting)

Turbo i would use the PTE turbos as they are great turbos and dont need water cooling. If you want to go real big the Garrett twinscroll GT40R will do it but will be laggy...

Lastly I would recommend doing AEM EMS for reliable pulls. OEM is great but it requires frequent tweaking even with Merps SD maps.

Oh and a good tuner

here is one i built that TurboMike tuned, The person was in the same boat as you, the only thing that held him back was his injectors...


Good luck and let us know if you have more questions!
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Old 09-10-2013, 01:01 AM   #14
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If reliability is key as well as having the 600whp then spend your money in the block.

Personally I would call Joe with ASF Machine and have him ship you a complete motor built for 600whp. If you have the cash OVER SPEND on internal parts....On the heads I would do a stage 2 port job with +1mm oversize valves. Go with a 2.5i manifold, Boomba throttle body and make sure that whoever builds the engine port matches everything and your motor is completely balanced and blue printed with a clutch installed (if you can) and have a build sheet.....This is all done in my own personal car and motor build with Joe expect mine is built to hold 800whp reliably and can max at 1000whp.

A 6266, 6466, 6766, BW S366 or higher and a 35R or one of it's offspring (think HTA) will do the trick. It really depends on how much boost you want to run on a daily driver as well as what type of fuel you will have.

Fuel system - ID 1300's, Walbro 450, fuel pressure regulator should do the trick....
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Old 09-10-2013, 01:29 PM   #15
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There is no need to over complicate what can been done very simply with the right parts selection!

My 613whp/614wtq build involved no custom made parts, no change in engine displacement, good fuel system, stock ECU and proper turbo selection... no special voodoo magic needed to make 600!
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Old 09-13-2013, 03:57 PM   #16
neb_subi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baseballdbk1 View Post
There is no need to over complicate what can been done very simply with the right parts selection!

My 613whp/614wtq build involved no custom made parts, no change in engine displacement, good fuel system, stock ECU and proper turbo selection... no special voodoo magic needed to make 600!
did you sleeve or anything? or just use good internals?
Is decking a good idea to do?
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Old 09-13-2013, 06:05 PM   #17
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OP you and I have a very similar story. I have a stock block rotated 35R with all supporting mods but on 93oct making a little less power. My stock block is doing ok but I'm ready to make more.

Long story short I thought about doing more of a budget build but ultimately it is always less expensive to do things right the first time. 600whp is a lot of power for a Subaru. It's one thing to make it on the dyno but I would be sweating bullets everytime I hit the gas if the case halves were totally stock. Sleeving would certainly make things much more reliable, I personally went with a closed deck block from Outfront Motorsports. There are lots of very capable engine builders on this site. I've always wanted a 2.3l +2mm long rod from Maxwell Power Services so that is the route I went which is being produced as I type this.

I plan on maxing out my 35R as well. My motor option is already going to be pushing my powerband to the right...a larger turbo would do this even more. So I figured I'm going to max out this turbo and hope to get close to around 600whp myself. Good luck and hope it all goes smoothly!

Quote:
Originally Posted by scby rex View Post
Get 17k. Call Dom at MPS, select turbo, send money. Done.
$17k?! seriously?!
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Old 09-13-2013, 06:16 PM   #18
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Start doing the math... Sleeving, head work, building cost, installation and removal, parts, extras. Adds up really quick...
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Old 09-13-2013, 09:06 PM   #19
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600whp is not that hard to hit these days. IMO all those fancy high reving motors go against reliability... since they have not been really proven and probably put more stress on the internals. I don't understand why people get all excited about reving to 9k when most setups start tapering around 7500-8000 rpm .

Keep it simple stupid and use good components, that is the key.
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:01 PM   #20
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^^^^What he said^^^^
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Old 09-14-2013, 06:19 AM   #21
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OP, I see that you're in Kentucky. If I was you I would contact Turn in Concepts in Cinci, Clint and Tony are great guys, very knowledgeable and have a good engine program going there, that Micah/ 3MI/ HomemadeWRX helped them set up. The other guy I would contact is John1badsti, he's in the Columbus area and is also a very good builder/ tuner with a good reputation!

You won't need to ditch your turbo but you might want to change the housing to .82ar for more top end but it should give you plenty of flow. I'd suggest a good el header if you don't have one now. You will need to upgrade your fueling for E85. There are lots of good comments here, some over the top and like others have said 600whp is not that hard to hit these days. Definitely keep it simple!
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Old 09-14-2013, 08:16 AM   #22
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H6 swap in my opinion. 600whp all day. none of all this other sleeving/blueprinting/porting/manifold changing/blah blah blah. off the shelf pistons & rods, new bearings, big turbo, vipec, tune, done.

wouldn't be any more work than you're already proposing. indeed probably less.
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Old 09-14-2013, 09:21 AM   #23
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Double post

Last edited by slowgenius; 09-14-2013 at 09:29 AM.
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Old 09-14-2013, 09:28 AM   #24
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I mentioned it before, 10k+ is about the sweet spot for a decent "built" block and heads for under 30 psi if boost. More if over. Give or take some if you already have a block and heads you can work with.

Try starting from scratch. I built a complete 2008 sti long block only using the coolant crossover, ac, power steering and alternator brackets, and some other small items off my wrx engine. It gets pricey fast.

In addition to new cams, valves, springs, headwork, plus the cost of used heads themselves, there is a crapload of sensors, lines plugs seals etc. that add up.

New case halves, crank, bearings, rods pistons, machine work, assembly. Timing components, oil pan, pump, tray, pickup.

Pile that on top of a decent turbo, complete exhaust, radiator, intercooler setup, radiator and a complete fuel system and standalone ecu (optional) and you approach the cost of a really decent used sti.

17k for a built motor AND what it takes to support it isnt a stretch imho.

Sure you can make 600 to the wheels cheaper, but realistically it wont last very long. A couple guys on here have chimed in that have actually done it, mine still aint finnished. My only regret is not closed decking my block or sleeving. Im hoping my tuner can keep it in one piece.
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Old 09-14-2013, 02:05 PM   #25
neb_subi
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A lot of good info on the post. I will most likely deck and sleeve!
Question though for sleeving, any advantage to doing 100mm pistons or just stick with stock bore?

Everyone agree on Manley h beams then?
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