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Old 02-14-2012, 08:44 PM   #226
mitchbugeyerex143
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Of course the first thing everybody should try is to just simply use a breaker bar but for those less fortunate where this method doesnt work. I am just trying to offer alternatives after the obvious doesnt work.
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:48 PM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin60 View Post
TurboIce, gtfo and troll somewhere else.

owned.
Now you see, you are just repeatedly being childish. You say why can't we all just be friends and you claim to want a community of contribution. But all you really want is to swing you itty bitty epeen around and create conflict to entertain yourself making up for a miserable life you are disappointed in. In fact you were one of the trolls in this matter, creating conflict where none needed to exist. Others have subsequently responded in a way so as to discuss without continuing as a conflict. It is clear that it is your utmost desire to continue the thread as a conflict rather than as a community discussion. By addressing me personally you are hoping for a heated response and an extension of the conflict, when I was more than willing to accept the difference of opinion and let it go. You decided to continue to be a troll and you need desperately to grow up.

I was not owned, but you are a tool. Since you are not capable of reading comprehension I will summarize for you what OFM said and how it relates to what I have said or my thoughts on new information given.
  1. OFM states many ways to do it and no right or wrong. I never said there were not other ways of dealing with fasteners resistant to removal - I said there was a preferable way. They did not say otherwise. I believe there is a preferable way, I have supported my belief, and holding that belief or responding to requests for support for that belief is does not a troll make.
  2. Now they say it is for use when the heads will come apart for a valve job. This limitation in use was never mentioned in the video or supporters for impacting previously. I can see the mitigation of any possible negative affects that impacting may cause by knowing in advance that head work will be performed. (I have stated possible negative affects and never have in fact stated that they would occur, but my preferable method removes any possibility of negative affects.) I accept planned work on the heads as mitigating the possibility. But I do not accept the implication that it is obvious that the heads would be disassembled and a valve job performed. Working on the heads is not a valid assumption for the need to remove the camshaft gears.
  3. They say the impact gun is on the bolt for a max of two seconds. They most likely have an air system with proper amount of CFM and PSI to apply full force. To which there are two things: I cannot dispute how quickly they claim the bolt will be universally broken free since I have never used their method - but not everyone has a properly sized air system and there are several instances in this thread, both properly equipped and not properly equipped, where an impact method of removal had been applied for much longer than two seconds.

I have more than adequate welding, air supply and air tools to perform their method. However, if a bolt will not come out manually using a old belt to lock gear movement and if I am going to use a wasted bolt method of removal, I maintain that drilling the head of the fastener is a preferable means of removing the fastener. And most everyone owns a drill and can acquire a bit adequate to the job. The only benefit of an impact method is that it would be faster, other than that I believe there are risks with an impact method that do not exist with drilling out the fastener head.

I said I was willing to agree to disagree. If you really believe the board should get along and if you only want to contribute, you wouldn't post posts like you have. It has been a long time since any of your posts have been part of a community discussion rather than trolling.

Last edited by turboICE; 02-14-2012 at 11:55 PM.
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Old 02-15-2012, 12:55 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by outfrontmotorsports View Post
Getting a little hot in here. there are many ways to skin the cat. We have used this technique for years. There is zero affect on the cam by welding on it when the ground is on the camshaft or bolt. The impact gun is on the bolt for two seconds at most. There is no builder that could confirm damage to valve train components by removing a cam bolt in this fashion. I might mention that this proceedure is only used when dissasembling a motor for a rebuild. this of course is never used while assembling the motor, so i'm not sure why someone is talking about the delicate lash and valve train components when the heads are coming apart for a valve job anyways

John, Outfront motorsports

Ps, this is not about who's right or wrong, it's simply showing a different method to accomplish the same goal--you make the call yourself.
Meh. Sometimes heads come off to be reinstalled as is since they may not need any work.

The point is engines are not made of glass, so gorillas get away with using gorilla methods. Happens every day at almost every shop out there (IME majority of mechanics are incompetent and/or simply not paid enough to care). Does not mean they should be using gorilla methods.

While this is a different engine, Honda expressly prohibits use of impact on cam bolt. Subaru AVCS cams also have rather small locking pin that I would not want to subject to impact gun hammering.

http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/at...2&d=1320264725

Last edited by unclemat; 02-15-2012 at 01:34 AM.
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Old 02-15-2012, 01:43 AM   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclemat View Post
Meh. Sometimes heads come off to be reinstalled as is since they may not need any work.

The point is engines are not made of glass, so gorillas get away with using gorilla methods. Happens every day at almost every shop out there (IME majority of mechanics are incompetent and/or simply not paid enough to care). Does not mean they should be using gorilla methods.

While this is a different engine, Honda expressly prohibits use of impact on cam bolt. Subaru AVCS cam gears also have rather small locking pin that I would not want to subject to impact gun hammering.

http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/at...2&d=1320264725
gorilla methods, incompetent, not paid enough, how about not educated enough? The honda motor you are referencing has a timing chain and clearly i do not use an impact on a motor with timing chains as the guide and or tensioners are fragile and sometimes even made of plastic, further more the reference to not using an impact gun on the "intake" cam is not because of the pin/keyway on the end of the cam that is weak, but rather an "internal pin" inside the AVCS gear itself. This pin is weak and the torqueing load of even the breaker bar will break it if the gear is not set in the lock or unlock position (depending on loosening or tightening) as per your reading.

Subarus have a rather large locking pin and larger internal stops that are more robust inside their AVCS gears, further more using an impact gun on the subaru cam bolt puts "zero" internal load through the AVCS gear and internals, when using the timing belt/vise grip method it puts all the load of the torque wrench (and 4 foot cheater bars) through the gear, gear pin and or gear stops!!! Hmmmmm. You may also note that the video shows the cam bolt being impacted off with no belt on it so there are also zero loads across any tensioner/idler bearing.

The only mis-information here is trying to apply Honda techniques to a Subaru when clearly they do not apply

Last edited by outfrontmotorsports; 02-15-2012 at 01:52 AM.
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Old 02-15-2012, 01:55 AM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclemat View Post
Meh. Sometimes heads come off to be reinstalled as is since they may not need any work.

The point is engines are not made of glass, so gorillas get away with using gorilla methods. Happens every day at almost every shop out there (IME majority of mechanics are incompetent and/or simply not paid enough to care). Does not mean they should be using gorilla methods.

While this is a different engine, Honda expressly prohibits use of impact on cam bolt. Subaru AVCS cams also have rather small locking pin that I would not want to subject to impact gun hammering.

http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/at...2&d=1320264725
okay, i am in no way speaking for anyone or everyone else besides myself but i would think if you are taking the heads off then that usually means that some sort of valvetrain work would be done to the heads before they go back for install, youd be stupid to take them off and not do work to them and put them back on. Although i do realize this may not always be the case, it can vary depending upon a lot a contributin factors. to each their own, everybody has their own opinion and preferable way to do such tasks. I guess it just so happens that i am in the minority here. but hey, learn something new everyday. i have only torn my engine apart once and done it OFM technique so i guess im no expert, just my preference.

/endrant
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Old 02-15-2012, 02:01 AM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchbugeyerex143 View Post
okay, i am in no way speaking for anyone or everyone else besides myself but i would think if you are taking the heads off then that usually means that some sort of valvetrain work would be done to the heads before they go back for install, youd be stupid to take them off and not do work to them and put them back on. Although i do realize this may not always be the case, it can vary depending upon a lot a contributin factors. to each their own, everybody has their own opinion and preferable way to do such tasks. I guess it just so happens that i am in the minority here. but hey, learn something new everyday. i have only torn my engine apart once and done it OFM technique so i guess im no expert, just my preference.

/endrant
You are correct, why would you spend 20 hours to R&R your motor to replace head gaskets when you're only $300+ away from having a Valve job done, it's really a moot point as no damage occurs anyways
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Old 02-15-2012, 02:03 PM   #232
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hhahahahaahhah turbo ice. your so funny! hahaha your the one getting butt hurt about us using proven methods. i was trying to be friendly about it but you continued to push that our technique was terrible and incorrect. agree to disagree hahahha you tool. just cause you own a new STi that's probably stock doesnt at all make you an enthusiast.

unclemat once again north American subaru IMPREZA owners club. my question remains, why are you here? bye!

have a nice day!
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Old 02-15-2012, 05:43 PM   #233
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wow this thread is old and still funny.
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Old 02-15-2012, 07:23 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by Colin60 View Post
hhahahahaahhah turbo ice. your so funny! hahaha your the one getting butt hurt about us using proven methods. i was trying to be friendly about it but you continued to push that our technique was terrible and incorrect. agree to disagree hahahha you tool. just cause you own a new STi that's probably stock doesnt at all make you an enthusiast.

unclemat once again north American subaru IMPREZA owners club. my question remains, why are you here? bye!

have a nice day!
Play nice or stay out of the sandbox.
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Old 02-23-2012, 10:16 AM   #235
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Which mark on the crank sprocket indicates pistons are half-stroke?
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:41 AM   #236
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The white straight line. NOT the TRIANGLE.

Stephen@iaperformance.com
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:52 AM   #237
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Got it; thx.
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Old 05-09-2012, 11:34 PM   #238
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Did this in my kitchen today. Only took me 10mins.
I guess I'm lucky.
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:30 AM   #239
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very lucky indeed!
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Old 05-20-2012, 08:46 AM   #240
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I tried the timing belt to hold the cam gears, but had the issue of cam gears jumping teeth on the belt.
1/2" breaker bar with 3ft cheater (read: Jack handle)
I had no easy access to air (Not loading up the engine to bring it into work)

100 bucks later, I had the proper tools. Such is the world of speciality tools, was way easier, and I'm sure I can make the 100 bucks back 'renting' the tools to buddies. (In the form of beer, of course)

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Old 10-28-2013, 03:19 PM   #241
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Cool Solution

I faced this dilemna and I am very impatient. From what I've read on other persons experience the bottom line seems to be destroying the cam gear bolts to achieve removal. Using an impact and cam gear wrenches I stripped to 10 hex heads 3/4 of the way. On my last attempt before I quit I took a 10 hex key and a cheater, I used the cam wrenches to hold them in place and bam. The hex key bent up to a quarter or less before the bolt came off on the intake and the same for the exhaust. The bottom line is the cam gears are too spongy for a impact and to strong for a 1/2" breaker. The hex key in combination with a cheater worked for me by likewise a 3/4" breaker bar and 3/4 10 hex socket will work to same. Bottom line.
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Old 10-28-2013, 03:22 PM   #242
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Now all I gotta do is find a way to upload the image.
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Old 10-28-2013, 04:54 PM   #243
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Just drill out the bolts - easy and dare I say foolproof... Works every time :-)

Ray
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Old 10-28-2013, 05:48 PM   #244
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philatlasvegas - it sounds like you were one of the lucky ones. We've gone through many Snap On hex sockets and broken gears over the years using the same method mentioned with 4ft long floor jack handle slipped over a 1/2" drive snap on breaker bar. Having a drill handy is a good Plan B as well.

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Old 10-28-2013, 08:04 PM   #245
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I had to weld a lug nut to the cam bolt. Pretty sure it killed the gears but i have not taken them apart yet
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Old 10-28-2013, 08:33 PM   #246
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Drilling the bolts it's a must, the $20-$30 worth of bolts is not worth the effort and risk on doing it any other way.

Need:

Cobalt "Not Titanium" bits
7/16 bit
Slow speed and lubrication, I repeat SLOW... or you will break the bit.
C-Clamps or Visegrips to hold belt

Last edited by V8 GTFO Lesbic WGN; 10-28-2013 at 08:50 PM.
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Old 10-28-2013, 08:44 PM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V8 GTFO Lesbic WGN View Post
Drilling the bolts it's a must, the $20-$30 worth of bolts is not worth the effort and risk on doing it any other way.

Need:

Cobalt "Not Titanium" bits
7/16 bit
Slow speed and lubrication
C-Clamps or Visegrips to hold belt
Agreed, If I did it again I would not even try to do it without drilling bolt out a little to get it loosen up. Would saved me lots of furstration.
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Old 11-25-2013, 10:22 AM   #248
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Default Cam Gears

You can buy the Cam sprocket tools on amazon for like $50... I am having trouble getting my Avcs Cam gears off, is there any other way to get them off than buy the special tool?
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Old 11-25-2013, 11:02 AM   #249
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Tool option (click image)
$49.95 (in stock)



Drilling Option
Grab a 7/16" drill bit and drill through the middle of the cam sprocket bolt's head. You will want to double check the bit size (it should be the same diameter of the other bolts you have removed). Once you drill through the bolt head, it will pop off and then the body of the bolt will unscrew with your finger tips.

Either options results in buying something (replacement bolt or reusable tool which is handy for reassembly.

Stephen
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Old 11-27-2013, 11:02 PM   #250
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I get them off with the full belt assembly together engine at (TDC) and a impact gun. If they are real bad you might need two people breaker bar and cheater bar. I've had to clamp some old belts to just to hold the gears tight.
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