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Old 03-19-2006, 06:32 PM   #1
BVM
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Question Hmmm

Well I got my alcohol injection kit installed on the scooby Saturday. At the time I couldn't find Denatured Alcohol so I called up SMC to see what options I had. After a quick chat we decided to use rubbing alcohol to test the system. Its mixed 70/30 right out of the bottle but I diluted it to what I think is 50/50.
When the system starts to spray I didn't notice any misfire or stumble but I noticed my knock correction (via Scanmaster3) went from 9.0 to 5 and never moved while the system was active. My AFR is tuned for 11.2 @ WOT and it didn't change. The car also felt the same or slightly slower while active as well. So either I watered the first batch down so much that its acting more like water injection or its something else. I was under the impression when the system goes active my AFR so go really rich and my spark advance should climb.
I did find some denatured alcohol today and I even picked up a bottle of methylated spirits (same as denatured). I am going to try a different mix tomorrow.

Ideas, comments or suggestions???
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Old 03-20-2006, 01:06 AM   #2
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you didnt mention if the cars EM had been specifically tuned for the alky injection. Has it? itll be extremely rich (about 20% extra fuel in the mix) if its not compensated for via EM programming...
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Old 03-20-2006, 01:23 AM   #3
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Could be a lot more then 20% in certain rpm ranges(lower rpm ranges) since the smc kit puts out the same amount of liquid no matter what rpm the engine is at. Imo the smc kit is pretty ghetto the way it controls flow, especially for how much the kit costs.... Your a/f ratio shoulda gotten richer(especially at lower rpm ranges), but not so much since you need a lot more alc then gas to get a given a/f reading, and you're mixin your alc with water(which dilutes how much alc is actually goin in). Also, water might change the a/f reading, but I'm not sure about that. Either way your car shoulda felt slower(especially at lower rpm ranges), and the engine coulda knocked because of the compression being raised by using so much fuel and water(which mighta been what made your timing multiplier go down). At least that's the way I see it. If I was you, I'd try using less alc/water, or less gas. Course this is all just my opinion, and I'm no expert.

peace

Last edited by hippy; 03-20-2006 at 01:29 AM.
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Old 03-20-2006, 12:52 PM   #4
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How is controlling the flow according to boost pressure ghetto I cant think of a better way to do it. I mean an RPM based variable would be nice, but it certianly isnt needed.
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Old 03-20-2006, 02:50 PM   #5
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I was thinking the same thing Dave.
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Old 03-20-2006, 02:54 PM   #6
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Ever wonder why the fuel pump and fuel pressure regulator in wrx's aren't the only things controlling the flow of fuel? The smc kit is like a stock fuel system without the injectors. That alone should show ya how effective the smc kit is compared to other water/alc injection systems. I mean, how well would your engine run if the injectors put out the same amount of flow at a given boost no matter what the rpm?

Rpm based is 100x better then boost based, but both(like a single solenoid diy system which would cost less then $200 hooked upto a utec or hydra) would obvious be better. A $200 diy system with two solenoids(for two stages) would work better then the smc kit(since each stage can come onat different rpms), and would cost less then half of what the smc kit costs.

How do you even know that more flow is coming out at lower boost pressures when you're just adjusting the amount of current the pump gets? Unless you tested it out yourself, for all you know the same amount of flow comes out at 10psi as at 15psi since the nozzle might be limiting flow. If the nozzle isn't limiting flow, then when the pump puts out less water the water might not even be getting atomized. Also, there could be fluctuations in voltage that could change flow if the pump is controlling flow by how much current it gets. It is so much better to have the system at a given pressure all the time(like the stock fuel system) and use two smaller nozzles(to control flow instead of the pump) that come on at different rpms. Imo the smc controller is ghettoooooooooooooooooooooooo and worthless, and you'd be better off with a rrfpr.

peace

Last edited by hippy; 03-20-2006 at 03:07 PM.
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Old 03-20-2006, 03:05 PM   #7
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Why not call and discuss your ideas with Steve @ SMC instead of telling me my $500 pro built injection kit is ghetto? You don't see me on here knocking anyones homebrew set ups now do you?
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Old 03-20-2006, 03:09 PM   #8
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Lol@"pro built". It's a diy system that was put together by someone else who added a useless controller. Course that's just my $.02. I could make ya a system for less that works better, and so could you. That was my point.

Here's a link to snowperformance. The kit on the linked page is effectively the same kit as the smc one but costs $100 less cause they don't rip off their customers so much(cooling mist also has a comparable kit for $100 less then smc(the base kit plus the useless "vari cool controller"). It even comes with the same useless controller. Note that solenoids cost more, and would be standard in a $200 diy kit.

I'm not callin smc because I have nothing to discuss with them about their kit. They and I both know it's abilities and limitations. If they don't change anything with their kit(like the price or the way it's controlled) and don't go out of business, it will be because of people who don't know what they're getting or how much it should cost(no offense). Like I said, just trying to prevent other wrx owners who haven't already been ripped off from gettin ripped off.

peace

Last edited by hippy; 03-20-2006 at 03:33 PM.
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Old 03-20-2006, 03:36 PM   #9
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How do I know??

Come on, this doesnt take a genius to figure out. I look at my logs. You can easily tell how much its spraying by how much you need to change the fuel tables to get the correct a/f.

And having seen what it takes to tune an aquamist kit, and an SMC kit, I can assure you that it works just as well.

I love the "I dont have any actual experience with something, but I have baseless ideas, so I will trash a product" mindset you seem to have. Its so very nasioc.

Just to shoot more holes in your theories, I have seen the SMC nozzle spray at the lowest pressure. It atomizes VERY well even at its lowest pressure. All you need to do is hold it in your hand and make it spray. (but stand back because the plume is about 2 feet wide )

Why does the SMC kit cost more than the coolingmist kit? Well if you cant take one look at it and see that, then I dont know what to say. One kit is 90% assembled for you, requiring no "figuring out where to put this pump" or anything like that, and the other is all parts that YOU have to put together, and figure out where and how to mount. Not that I am saying thats a bad thing, for many people that is a huge plus, like stealth installs or really custom setups. But obviously a kit that is all built up already is going to cost more.
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Old 03-20-2006, 03:41 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippy
Lol@"pro built". It's a diy system that was put together by someone else who added a useless controller. Course that's just my $.02. I could make ya a system for less that works better, and so could you. That was my point.

Here's a link to snowperformance. The kit on the linked page is effectively the same kit as the smc one but costs $100 less cause they don't rip off their customers so much(cooling mist also has a comparable kit for $100 less then smc(the base kit plus the useless "vari cool controller"). It even comes with the same useless controller. Note that solenoids cost more, and would be standard in a $200 diy kit.

I'm not callin smc because I have nothing to discuss with them about their kit. They and I both know it's abilities and limitations. If they don't change anything with their kit(like the price or the way it's controlled) and don't go out of business, it will be because of people who don't know what they're getting or how much it should cost(no offense). Like I said, just trying to prevent other wrx owners who haven't already been ripped off from gettin ripped off.

peace
Wow I would be carefull with terms like ripped off... ever hear of Liable?

Now with that out of the way, I have NOTHING but good things to say about Steve and SMC. He is very professional, knowledgeable, courteous and helpful. I can't name many vendors/manufactures that you can call up and speak directly with the "boss". Steve has bent over backwards for me and has helped me every step of the way. I would never say he is "ripping off" anyone. How dare you comes to mind...

Last edited by BVM; 03-20-2006 at 03:46 PM.
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Old 03-20-2006, 03:43 PM   #11
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You notice he posts a link to a kit with a TINY res, and one that you have to figure out on your own where to mount the pump, then fabricate your own mounting setup, then bitches that the SMC cost more

Did he even look at that kit before he posted it?

Ill break it down for him

You have 2 kits. Function wise they do the same thing.

Kit A takes 45 min to install
Kit B takes 3 hours to install

Gee let me think about that one
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Old 03-20-2006, 03:57 PM   #12
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I have owned both kits and installed both my self on my evo. Both trunk mount kits. My take on it is that the smc is a little easier to install in the sense that its more plug in play as far as wiring goes but the snow kit is by no means hard to install. It is three wires, two leds and boost hose for the controller. If you add the safeinjection it is 3 more wires and a solenoid. Over all it took about 40 mins more to do the snow kit but that was mainly because I sodered every connection then heat shrunk them and finally ziptied them all neatly and I had to install the solenoid which requires removal of intake on the evo. In the end the snow kit is a little more clean of an install as the only thing that is showing is two leds where as with the snow kit you had another controller visable.
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Old 03-20-2006, 03:58 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow
How do I know??

Come on, this doesnt take a genius to figure out. I look at my logs. You can easily tell how much its spraying by how much you need to change the fuel tables to get the correct a/f.
I might not be a genius, but I can tell ya that it's not as easy as you make it out to be. If you get the same wbo2 reading after adding injection and removing fuel as you did b4 you had the injection, you're really running a much richer air to liquid ratio(this is especially true if you're running an alc/water mix instead of 100% alc). This is because you need to add more alc then amount of fuel removed to get a given wbo2 reading because of alcs richer stoich a/f ratio, and the water just adds to the amount of liquid.

Quote:
And having seen what it takes to tune an aquamist kit, and an SMC kit, I can assure you that it works just as well.
Smc is obviously easier to tune since it's basically the simplest kit you can get. Saying that it works as well as an aquamist 2d or other mapping system is like saying your engine would run as well without injectors as it does now, or saying that since you own a wrx it will outrun a mclarren. Just cause you have an smc kit, that doesn't make it work as well as other kits. The snow kit costs $100 less and would work the same.

Quote:
I love the "I dont have any actual experience with something, but I have baseless ideas, so I will trash a product" mindset you seem to have. Its so very nasioc.
It's a basic diy single stage system with an electronic rrfpr. I've set my system to just have a given flow through the rpm range(which is exactly like an smc kit), and I can tell you that systems which change flow as the engine gets more air(ie as the rpms go up) work better. Course I don't need experience to say that(even though I have experience) because it's common sense.

Quote:
Just to shoot more holes in your theories, I have seen the SMC nozzle spray at the lowest pressure. It atomizes VERY well even at its lowest pressure. All you need to do is hold it in your hand and make it spray. (but stand back because the plume is about 2 feet wide
Did you check the flow at the lowest voltage essure and the highest? Is there any difference? Either way, this is a ghetto way of controlling flow. Course this is just my opinion, and as always I'm no expert.

peace

Last edited by hippy; 03-20-2006 at 04:05 PM.
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Old 03-20-2006, 03:59 PM   #14
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LEDs

Controllers

By the way I am in no way bashing the SMC kit as its a great kit too, I just don't want people thinking that the snow kit is much harder to install. I will be doing a full write up at some point on how to install it on a subaru.
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Old 03-20-2006, 04:51 PM   #15
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Its not HARD, its just hardER. The SMC kit is pretty much a drop in, connect a couple wires (1 plug, ground and power) tap for boost signal, install the nozzle and go. There is a lot more fo the other kits.

I am by no means bashing the other kits out there, as many of them have some REALLY nice features, but for 99% of people, the SMC kit does everything they will ever need.
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Old 03-20-2006, 04:57 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippy
I might not be a genius, but I can tell ya that it's not as easy as you make it out to be. If you get the same wbo2 reading after adding injection and removing fuel as you did b4 you had the injection, you're really running a much richer air to liquid ratio(this is especially true if you're running an alc/water mix instead of 100% alc). This is because you need to add more alc then amount of fuel removed to get a given wbo2 reading because of alcs richer stoich a/f ratio, and the water just adds to the amount of liquid.

But you DONT get the same a/f. Mine dropped into the 8-1 range when it sprayed on the load sites that I hadnt already pulled fuel out of. I had to make MASSIVE changes to get the A/F back where it was.



Smc is obviously easier to tune since it's basically the simplest kit you can get. Saying that it works as well as an aquamist 2d or other mapping system is like saying your engine would run as well without injectors as it does now, or saying that since you own a wrx it will outrun a mclarren. Just cause you have an smc kit, that doesn't make it work as well as other kits. The snow kit costs $100 less and would work the same.
It would, but its well worth the $100 to a lot of people to have the way faster install. Dont forget, almost all failures are due to screwups in the install. A kit with less for an end user who may or may not have the skills to "do it right" is going to be safer by that fact alone. And dont forget, that snow kit, is only $50 cheaper once you add the larger res. The res it comes with it positively useless. You would be refilling it 2 times per tank of gas, and no one is going to be happy doing that after a couple tanks of gas.


It's a basic diy single stage system with an electronic rrfpr. I've set my system to just have a given flow through the rpm range(which is exactly like an smc kit), and I can tell you that systems which change flow as the engine gets more air(ie as the rpms go up) work better. Course I don't need experience to say that(even though I have experience) because it's common sense.

Again, the real world performance differences are basically nil. You may be able to pull 2-4whp more out, in a few spots.


Did you check the flow at the lowest voltage essure and the highest? Is there any difference? Either way, this is a ghetto way of controlling flow. Course this is just my opinion, and as always I'm no expert.

Lowest pressure, so I would assume (yeah I know) lowest voltage.

peace
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Old 03-20-2006, 05:32 PM   #17
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Like talkin to a wall. It's funny how you said I have no experience, then you go into acting like an aquamist 2d system will only have a gain of at most 2-4 hp over smc kit<laughs>.... This is you talkin out of your poopshoot, and not from experience. A 2 stage system makes it easier to run more injection uptop without drownin the engine down low which would theoretically give gains. That's why there is such thing as a 2 stage system. They help make more power then single stage systems. I won't say how much gain there might be like some people since I really don't know, but I'd bet $100 that it's more then double what you said in many rpm ranges. Again, you really don't know what the real world difference is, and imo you are underestimating how much of a role adjustability plays in relation to gains when it comes to water injection.

With 2 jets you get to run less water/alc down low and more water/alc uptop which should help show gains(with propper tunin) everywhere except that one rpm range where the one stage system actually has a normal water to fuel ratio. What else needs to be said other then single stage systems are the simplest systems made and will show the least amount of gains compared to any other system?

If your a/f ratio dropped to 8 then you leaned it out to where it was b4 injection, you're still runnin richer then b4 injection. That was my point. Your a/f ratio dropping downto 8 just shows how much you were actually injecting. Ie-If you were running straight alc, your air/liquid ratio was really richer then 8(lets say 6 to 1 just as an example), and if you were runnin an alc/water mix your air/liquid ratio was even richer(lets say 4 to 1).

Was a "40 minute" difference in installs worth $100? You must make more money then me.....

I wouldn't think that most problems with injection systems are do to install, especially since I've never heard of anyone having a problem with the system running normally which was relating to the install. This is you talkin out of your sphinkter, and not from experience. If I was to guess, I'd think that most problems with injection are do to clogs or parts breaking(both of which I have heard of people having problems with), both of which stop flow. There are companies which have safety devices for this kind of problem. Smc is not one of them.

peace

Last edited by hippy; 03-20-2006 at 06:04 PM.
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Old 03-20-2006, 06:10 PM   #18
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Hippy & I have had our differences in the past and I have no need to relive any of that. A boost referenced progressive controller is more than 99% of street cars will ever need. If it is more complex, it is more difficult for the average user to tune. The AM 2d may reference RPM, but their pump has had trouble with certain alcohols and their stuff is more $$$ and uses plastic lines. The SMC kit has more features/dollar than anything out there and will soon offer a built in failsafe in the v3.0 unit. And as stated, the SMC kit for the WRX is a drop-in install. As for what shows inside the car? I personally would rather have my ramp controls, 3 leds, and test button accessible than 2 led's only.....where's the low lite?
Where's the underhood pressure guage?

Jusk ask the vendors which kit they prefer. SMC has declined new dealer applications for the last month because we have too much work. So who do you want to listen to? A "keyboard warrior" or the guys making the extra 50+HP? All I do is try to make a decent product and give good customer support. There will always be a naysayer or a "build it yourself" guy out there telling you his way is best. All I can say is "What-Ever."

Back to work....we're still 50 kits behind.

Last edited by SMC; 03-20-2006 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 03-20-2006, 06:14 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BVM
....(via Scanmaster3) ....
My AFR is tuned for 11.2 @ WOT and it didn't change.

Are you reading AFR on the scanmaster? If so it only dispalys down to 11.2:1.
If you are using WBO2 ignore me.

TMS
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Old 03-20-2006, 06:27 PM   #20
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I don't know why people hate the plastic lines, there is nothing wrong with them. As for the leds, I like the look of two cleanly installed leds over another box in the car. Its a personal thing. I don't want to make this into an arguement but over the weekend I had another local have his pump fail on him. So if you want to start knocking other kits I can do that too but there is no need for it. I didn't not want a low lite for my personal kit since I always keep the tank full and with the failsafe I don't don't have anything to worry about. If I really wanted to for 15 dollars i can pick up a low level sensor and led and install it in 20mins. Another thing I don't really see how the underhood sensor is that useful other than for testing purposes as you can't see it while driving. I just want to make it clear, the SMC is a great kit; I just personally like the Snow Performance kit more. I think its great that there are several really great kits for people to choose from. Keeps the companies on their toes developing even better kits.
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Old 03-20-2006, 06:28 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMC
.....A boost referenced progressive controller is more than 99% of street cars will ever need. If it is more complex, it is more difficult for the average user to tune. The AM 2d may reference RPM, but their pump has had trouble with certain alcohols and their stuff is more $$$ and uses plastic lines. The SMC kit has more features/dollar than anything out there and will soon offer a built in failsafe in the v3.0 unit.....
Boost reference controller is not needed. It's an extra $200 that noone needs and it takes more time to install then a pressure switch and solenoid since the pressure switch and solenoid don't need to be in the cockpit of the car. Why not make a kit with a solenoid and pressure switch instead? Your kit does not have the most features per dollar unless you consider drop in install a feature and charge 100+ for it. The snow kit is the same thing and costs $100 less(did I say that already).

The am 2d does not reference rpm, it references idc's. The plastic aquamist lines are the best I've seen in any kit. They're narrower then all other companies lines which helps the water get to the intercooler quicker. The aquamist kit is smaller then any other kit I know of, and fits easier into more places in a wrx. The exchange rate from enland to us might be why the am systems cost a lot(ie they might be more affordable in england), but they should cost more then the smc kit cause aquamist kits are better in so many ways that it's not even funny.

peace

Last edited by hippy; 03-20-2006 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 03-20-2006, 06:44 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMadScientist
Are you reading AFR on the scanmaster? If so it only dispalys down to 11.2:1.
If you are using WBO2 ignore me.

TMS
Good to know. Thanks for an informative reply. I actually have a WB02 collecting dust I just never got around to installing it! yeah yeah.. I'm slackin'!
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Old 03-20-2006, 07:26 PM   #23
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i've said it before, and i'll say it again...

in my experience, i've found that injecting alky might not change your AFR as much as one would think considering its an oxygenated fuel. when i first started tuning my car injecting isopropyl (and later ethanol), my AFR barely shifted at all. i run one of CoolingMist's largest nozzles now, and i still only see a few tenths to a point drop in AFR.

another thing to think about: a WBO2 sensor configured for measuring AFR of gasoline will be off when measuring the AFR of alky. check this out: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group...on/message/2688

if you're really concerned, just double-check your installation to make sure everything is functioning properly and no leaks are present. after you've verified, start experimenting with your tuning in stages, and have fun.
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Old 03-20-2006, 07:28 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippy
Like talkin to a wall. It's funny how you said I have no experience, then you go into acting like an aquamist 2d system will only have a gain of at most 2-4 hp over smc kit<laughs>.... This is you talkin out of your poopshoot, and not from experience.
How much do you want to bet on that?? You are a tool, never assume you know what someone has experience with.
because once again, you are wrong. I have seen SMC results, I have seen Coolingmist results, I have seen MANY cars with aquamist, and a couple with the devils own kit.
They all make about the same power. So keep kidding yourself thinking you got something special for the extra 500-600 bucks with the aquamist.
I love watching you guys try to justify taking in the @ from aquamist for a grand for 99% the exact same result
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Old 03-20-2006, 07:53 PM   #25
SMC
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Last reply to Hippy:

Quote:
Originally Posted by hippy
Boost reference controller is not needed.
Really? That's not what most tuners think...

It's an extra $200 that noone needs and it takes more time to install then a pressure switch and solenoid since the pressure switch and solenoid don't need to be in the cockpit of the car. Why not make a kit with a solenoid and pressure switch instead?
I'll assume you are speaking of the AM hi speed solenoid valve. Different way to accomplish the same thing. Apples to oranges.

Your kit does not have the most features per dollar unless you consider drop in install a feature and charge 100+ for it. The "#$%@" kit is the same thing and costs $100 less(did I say that already).
most other kits have NO:
pressure guage
pressure based spray lite
in car controller
$70 Subie tank
braided steel line
There's your extra $100, OK?


The am 2d does not reference rpm, it references idc's. The plastic aquamist lines are the best I've seen in any kit. They're narrower then all other companies lines which helps the water get to the intercooler quicker. The aquamist kit is smaller then any other kit I know of, and fits easier into more places in a wrx. The exchange rate from enland to us might be why the am systems cost a lot(ie they might be more affordable in england), but they should cost more then the smc kit cause aquamist kits are better in so many ways that it's not even funny.

Plastic lines are super easy to plumb, come in cool colors, etc....but I personally don't care to use them for alky. And I believe Richard has admitted issues with the AM pump and alky, am I right? I consider the AM kit the best WATER injection system there is....and it should be for the price. But alky is another story.

I think Hippy needs to design/market/sell a kit since it would obviously be better than anything on the planet.
I'm done on this thread- don't need the stress.
-SMC





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