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Old 03-21-2006, 06:56 PM   #1
uberspeed
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Default 2.5L longblock in '02 WRX

Looking at buying an EJ257 long block from a Legacy GT, Turbo Baja, Forrester FXT, or US STI. It would be going in my 2002 WRX that has a burnt exhaust valve.

I know that it is getting very popular to just buy the short block and swap the WRX heads on but my engine has 144k miles and most likely a burnt valve so I don't want to reuse them.

I know that the 2.0L Japanese EJ207 engines in V7 and V8 form are popular but are getting very expensive. ($5kish) I have seen the EJ257 engines for as little as $2000 with low mileage.

So my question is, the EJ257 has AVCS and my WRX does not. The EJ207 Japanese engines also have AVCS and in order to run the AVCS, you can buy a wiring kit for ~$150 and use a JDM ECU. Wam Bam... But what are my options with an EJ257 using AVCS? I want to maintain my engine harness and do not want to go stand alone but recognize that I will need some tuning. Could this be done with an accessport? This requires me to use my intake manifold as well. See link:

http://www.elementtuning.com/V8%20In...%20Install.htm

I have been searching NASIOC with little luck. I am crossing my fingers that someone has figured this out before. With upgraded fuel and turbo, I would think STi like power and reliability would be quite achievable.

Also, what about running the longblock with the AVCS unused? Would it be worse than the WRX head/2.5L hybrid?

Thanks,
Chad
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Old 03-21-2006, 07:01 PM   #2
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shouldn't this be in the 2.5L section?
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Old 03-22-2006, 02:47 PM   #3
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Why not pick up an extra set of WRX heads & mate them to the EJ257 shortblock? It would be a heckuva lot cheaper than going the V7/V8 route. There are a couple cars around here running the EJ25 block/EJ20 head combo using a re-flashed (EcuTek) stock ECU.
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Old 03-22-2006, 03:21 PM   #4
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Why not take the long block and use your intake manifold and sensors, do away with the AVS? that way it would be a plug and play engine so to speak, only diff would be the .5 liter increase.

Frazer
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Old 03-22-2006, 04:06 PM   #5
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You can't run AVCS off a WRX intake manifold without a standalone like the hydra.

Also, keep in mind the 255 (FXT, LGT, OBXT, Baja-T motors are not 257s) use a different cam and crank sensor than the 2.0 WRX.
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Old 03-22-2006, 06:11 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by americanyouth
Also, keep in mind the 255 (FXT, LGT, OBXT, Baja-T motors are not 257s) use a different cam and crank sensor than the 2.0 WRX.
That's good info. I didn't realize the sensors were different.
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Old 03-22-2006, 06:15 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diz
That's good info. I didn't realize the sensors were different.
Yup, the DBW pedal changes a lot of stuff.
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Old 03-23-2006, 12:02 AM   #8
uberspeed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by americanyouth
You can't run AVCS off a WRX intake manifold without a standalone like the hydra.

Also, keep in mind the 255 (FXT, LGT, OBXT, Baja-T motors are not 257s) use a different cam and crank sensor than the 2.0 WRX.
This should be a sticky:
http://www.elementtuning.com/V8%20In...%20Install.htm

The biggest question is. What will be a better option. Getting a complete EJ257 longblock and using everything else WRX (like the link) and not running AVCS or doing a custom Ej257 shortblock and WRX heads (which will also not have AVCS of course).

With the AVCS not working the cams will be retarded 4 degrees I have heard.
Is there a way to mechanically center the AVCS cams? You of course still need to feed them oil.

Wouldn't this be a good option for people? junkyard longblock with a little messing with sensors. and you would have cams and heads that flow better than the WRX heads?? And you wouldn't need custom pistons to achieve the 8:1 CR.

The only AVCS option out there is doing a hydra unless you rewire the whole car and use the EJ257 equipped wiring harness. And I don't want to do either.
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Old 03-23-2006, 12:03 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by americanyouth
You can't run AVCS off a WRX intake manifold without a standalone like the hydra.

Also, keep in mind the 255 (FXT, LGT, OBXT, Baja-T motors are not 257s) use a different cam and crank sensor than the 2.0 WRX.
Is that true?? The baja Turbo is not an EJ257?? It cross references with a Forrester XT on car-part.com.
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Old 03-23-2006, 09:28 AM   #10
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Yes the other 2.5 turbos are EJ255 model codes.
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Old 03-23-2006, 09:53 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uberspeed
This should be a sticky:
http://www.elementtuning.com/V8%20In...%20Install.htm

The biggest question is. What will be a better option. Getting a complete EJ257 longblock and using everything else WRX (like the link) and not running AVCS or doing a custom Ej257 shortblock and WRX heads (which will also not have AVCS of course).

With the AVCS not working the cams will be retarded 4 degrees I have heard.
Is there a way to mechanically center the AVCS cams? You of course still need to feed them oil.

Wouldn't this be a good option for people? junkyard longblock with a little messing with sensors. and you would have cams and heads that flow better than the WRX heads?? And you wouldn't need custom pistons to achieve the 8:1 CR.

The only AVCS option out there is doing a hydra unless you rewire the whole car and use the EJ257 equipped wiring harness. And I don't want to do either.

You actually weld the AVCS oil holes shut, you don't feed them if they are not hooked up. They will be stuck on high cam, so you will loose low end.

IMO, this is a ****ty setup. If you really want a 2.5, just buy the shortblock, or do a complete swap with the right harness and ECU.
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Old 03-23-2006, 10:24 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by americanyouth
You actually weld the AVCS oil holes shut, you don't feed them if they are not hooked up. They will be stuck on high cam, so you will loose low end.

IMO, this is a ****ty setup. If you really want a 2.5, just buy the shortblock, or do a complete swap with the right harness and ECU.
You can't do that. That oil lubricates the cam. You still have to supply it with oil i think.

And how much low end do you lose. let's not compare 2.5 with AVCS or without (because I know AVCS hooked up is better) but 2.5 Longblock without AVCS vs. 2.5 shortblock with WRX heads and cams vs. 2.0 longblock.

What i am thinking is it is an improvement over a 2.0 Longblock, improvement over the hybrid with stock WRX cams but alot easier than swapping ECUs and harnesses plus the heads don't need to come off.
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Old 03-23-2006, 10:25 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronB
Yes the other 2.5 turbos are EJ255 model codes.
What are the big differences between the two? I am close to ordering an entire Baja drivetrain for a good price but now maybe I should wait for an EJ257.
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Old 03-23-2006, 10:51 AM   #14
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other than slightly worse flowing heads (not 100% confirmed) they are identical block/pistons/rods/crank/heads/cams
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Old 03-23-2006, 12:58 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uberspeed
You can't do that. That oil lubricates the cam. You still have to supply it with oil i think.

And how much low end do you lose. let's not compare 2.5 with AVCS or without (because I know AVCS hooked up is better) but 2.5 Longblock without AVCS vs. 2.5 shortblock with WRX heads and cams vs. 2.0 longblock.

What i am thinking is it is an improvement over a 2.0 Longblock, improvement over the hybrid with stock WRX cams but alot easier than swapping ECUs and harnesses plus the heads don't need to come off.
You do not want to supply it with oil when the AVCS isn't hooked up. If you don't weld the holes shut oil will spray all over everything under the hood.

You loose low end because you wont be running the AVCS "low cam". Yeah, its better than a 205 longblock... a little. Not as nice as just a 257 sb on 205 heads and cams though.

But what do I know... I've only tried this before.
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Old 03-23-2006, 02:00 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by americanyouth
You do not want to supply it with oil when the AVCS isn't hooked up. If you don't weld the holes shut oil will spray all over everything under the hood.

You loose low end because you wont be running the AVCS "low cam". Yeah, its better than a 205 longblock... a little. Not as nice as just a 257 sb on 205 heads and cams though.

But what do I know... I've only tried this before.
AmericanYouth,
Not trying to be a dousch so don't take me the wrong way. I had read on the element tuning article that you still need to feed oil to the AVCS heads regardless of if you are using them. And I acknowledge that i am a noob when it comes to a Subaru build up so apoligizes if I offend.

To do the 2.5SB and WRX heads with cams is a pretty big investment. I need to get a custom short block (to get a decent CR) $2500 + Rebuild my heads $500-1000 + cams $1000 = $4000-4500. Not to mention I have to assemble the two. I can get a EJ255 long block with low miles for $2000. That's basically the same price as rebuilding my EJ20. See what I am getting at? For at least half the money it would be a pretty sweet setup (I am hoping). My only concern is that lack of AVCS will be horrible. But it sounds like it will only be a little worse but still an improvement over sticking with the EJ20.

Also, do you guys know the CR of a EJ255 from a '04 Baja? Does it have the boss (that needs to be drilled and tapped) for the WRX Cam sensor like the EJ257?

Appreciate the help guys.
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Old 03-24-2006, 11:23 AM   #17
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Quote:
To do the 2.5SB and WRX heads with cams is a pretty big investment. I need to get a custom short block (to get a decent CR) $2500 + Rebuild my heads $500-1000 + cams $1000 = $4000-4500. Not to mention I have to assemble the two. I can get a EJ255 long block with low miles for $2000. That's basically the same price as rebuilding my EJ20. See what I am getting at? For at least half the money it would be a pretty sweet setup (I am hoping). My only concern is that lack of AVCS will be horrible. But it sounds like it will only be a little worse but still an improvement over sticking with the EJ20.
Anybody agree with my logic here?
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Old 03-24-2006, 02:24 PM   #18
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I’m reading a lot of misinformation in this thread so I would like to clear things up.

If you are doing a complete engine swap in a WRX follow the Element Tuning Guide.

If you are installing a complete long block without AVCS follow the guide!

Do not block any oil to the AVCS solenoids and if you do you will seize the cam to your head!

You will not have oil spraying anywhere under your hood as the STI long block has the AVCS cam sprocket with the correct oil seal. If you are using a WRX cam sprocket for whatever reason then you plug the 4 oil holes in each intake cam.

Your intake cam will not be retarded with an STI long block if you do not use AVCS.

There is no “low” or “high” cam with AVCS. There is only 0 degrees of advance to the intake cam or about 15 degrees.

Top-end power will be identical with or without AVCS. Without AVCS you will still have more low-end power than a WRX but it cannot be maximized unless you run a Hydra or rewire for a JDM ECU.

I hope this clears things up a little.

Thanks,
Phil
http://www.elementtuning.com
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Old 03-24-2006, 05:33 PM   #19
uberspeed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning
I’m reading a lot of misinformation in this thread so I would like to clear things up.

If you are doing a complete engine swap in a WRX follow the Element Tuning Guide.

If you are installing a complete long block without AVCS follow the guide!

Do not block any oil to the AVCS solenoids and if you do you will seize the cam to your head!

You will not have oil spraying anywhere under your hood as the STI long block has the AVCS cam sprocket with the correct oil seal. If you are using a WRX cam sprocket for whatever reason then you plug the 4 oil holes in each intake cam.

Your intake cam will not be retarded with an STI long block if you do not use AVCS.

There is no “low” or “high” cam with AVCS. There is only 0 degrees of advance to the intake cam or about 15 degrees.

Top-end power will be identical with or without AVCS. Without AVCS you will still have more low-end power than a WRX but it cannot be maximized unless you run a Hydra or rewire for a JDM ECU.

I hope this clears things up a little.

Thanks,
Phil
http://www.elementtuning.com
Thanks for taking the time and clearing that up Phil! Now all I need to determine is...

1. How different is a Baja-T Longblock compared to a STI Longblock? Compression Ratio the same? Shortblock the same? Heads the same?
2. Does the Baja-T Longblock have the boss on the head (that needs to be tapped for the WRX cam sensor?
3. Does a Baja-T use the same injectors as an STI?

Anyone know these 3 questions?

Much appreciated!
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Old 03-24-2006, 06:27 PM   #20
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The way the US AVCS is differnt than the JDM AVCS, the sensors are differnet ect.
Also there arent many choices of management to tune the EJ207 ECU.
If you want to go to AVCS your best bet would be to
- swap in a complete JDM 2.0L and use that factory ECU
- complete LGT, FXT, or STI 2.5L (all of these have AVCS) and use the factory ECU, or you could get a ECUtek reflash, or a Acessport.
-you will also need to wire in for the AVCS, but you already know that.

These options would be the easiest way.
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Old 03-24-2006, 08:00 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02Toyowrx
The way the US AVCS is differnt than the JDM AVCS, the sensors are differnet ect.
Also there arent many choices of management to tune the EJ207 ECU.
If you want to go to AVCS your best bet would be to
- swap in a complete JDM 2.0L and use that factory ECU
- complete LGT, FXT, or STI 2.5L (all of these have AVCS) and use the factory ECU, or you could get a ECUtek reflash, or a Acessport.
-you will also need to wire in for the AVCS, but you already know that.

These options would be the easiest way.
I have convinced myself that a 2.5 Longblock without AVCS is going to be my best option. I do not want to do the whole LGT, FXT, STI, or Baja-T swap because from what I have heard, it would require 3 large wiring harnesses to be swapped out. 2 engine bay harnesses and one under the dash. This includes the gas pedal assembly and alot of stuff under the dash. Doesn't sound fun.

I really need to know though if the Baja-T longblock is a good option when compared to an STI long block (I can score a great deal on one)
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Old 03-30-2006, 06:52 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uberspeed
I have convinced myself that a 2.5 Longblock without AVCS is going to be my best option. I do not want to do the whole LGT, FXT, STI, or Baja-T swap because from what I have heard, it would require 3 large wiring harnesses to be swapped out. 2 engine bay harnesses and one under the dash. This includes the gas pedal assembly and alot of stuff under the dash. Doesn't sound fun.

I really need to know though if the Baja-T longblock is a good option when compared to an STI long block (I can score a great deal on one)
It may be more difficult, but I've heard that running the ej257 without the AVCS, well, your missing a lot in the way of power delivery. I've heard a more peaky performance.

I'm running a complete STI wiring swap and ECU/DBW setup. I've been wanting to confirm and drive a ej257 swap without AVCS to confirm what I've heard.
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Old 02-03-2007, 03:22 PM   #23
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Phil, let's say we have an STI LB installed with the WRX intake manifold and we want to run AVCS using the Hydra. Is there any significant modifications other than the install and tuning of the hydra to accomplish this?
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Old 02-06-2007, 12:31 PM   #24
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I am in the middle of the same swap right now ('07 STI long block into a '02 WRX), and almost have the engine broken in so that I can go get my tune.

You do have another option, but it isn't cheap either, and that is the New Link, which will do ANYTHING. But it does run about $1700. I am going to run mine without AVCS until I can get the $1700 saved up for the Link. Any of the other options and you need an '04 STI ECU (The '05+ has the chip in the key, so you would need the whole ignition system from the ECU donor), the DBW pedal, the intake manifold with DBW throttle body, and the wiring harness (expensive as **** all by itself) The '02 WRX harness is a 4 pin, and the STI DBW throttle body is a 5 pin. So yes, it is complicated. But the Link can run the AVCS as well as water spray, meth/alk injection, nitrous, extra injectors, etc. and maintain your drive by cable (more responsive than the DBW) it is the end solution for your needs.

I am also going to be running an FP Green and pulling my custom Deadbolt VF22 out. I will be getting my tune in the next 2 weeks , so I can tell you how it goes (I don't spend much time on here though).

By adding the AVCS you will pick up a good 50FtLb of torque though, so it is very important for the low end, but I am running out of cash, so that will have to wait for me.

Last edited by '02NBLUE; 02-06-2007 at 12:34 PM. Reason: addition
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Old 02-06-2007, 01:15 PM   #25
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Is an ECU and wire harness absolutely necessary with a 2.5 long block swap. Say I wanted to drop in an 07 STi LB into my 04 WRX. If I used the throttle body and intake manifold and all the other little WRX bits and pieces would this be possible. Or, would I actually have to get the 07 STi ECU and wire harness and all the other STi stuff. Also, I am not too concerned with the AVCS being hooked up if that makes a difference.
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