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Old 09-10-2013, 07:07 AM   #3126
ButtDyno
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Well, it sure looks like they all liked contingency...
Don't mind me, I'm just bitter the 245-40-17 BFG didn't come out until later. That might actually be a part of it since Evo folks don't run 18s.
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Old 09-10-2013, 09:06 AM   #3127
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Well, nationals was awesome. Great work by Josh to get the 2nd spot in STU. I'm pretty happy to still make the podium, though Geoff still showed us the way around. At least a BMW didn't win this year!

John
Thanks John! Had a blast running with all of you guys again. Who knows, maybe I'll come out again next year in an attempt to take care of some unfinished business.

As far as BFG vs. Dunlop, I tested both on the practice course (yeah, I know, not the REAL thing) and they two were within a tenth. Same at Fed Ex. Also, the Dunlops don't really like to have heat, meaning that your first run could likely be your best opportunity. With two drivers there's no way we could take that chance unless we brought out two sets of Z2's and changed them for each driver.

I was also kind of betting on it being hot out in Lincoln, which it was, but since we ran in the 2nd heat it was much less of an issue. But even at that, if you look at Geoff's Day 2, he couldn't get close to that first run time. Meanwhile I pulled out a 56.4, a 56.5 (dirty), and a 56.8 that had a huge mistake through part of it. Pretty sure that run could have been a bit better, or at least on par with my other runs. Then again he did continue to drop time on Day 1, but then again you could drop a ton of time on that East course just by improving your braking zones and nailing those apexes. Hard to tell.

I do however think that the 18's were a big help on the East course, shifted to 3rd where nearly everyone else was, but only just tapping the limiter in the other two spots where other STi's were all over the limiter for a bit.

Not going to lie, I would love to have another shot at Geoff with me as the only driver and running on the same tire. Not sure which part of the equation beat me the most: the tire, the car, or the driver...but I'm pretty sure that the majority of it was the driver. That guy isn't slow.
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Old 09-10-2013, 09:10 AM   #3128
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Also, I think my favorite moment of the event was joking around and talking trash with Geoff. Hyman came over to ask me about my second run and I told him that the car was a bit pushy on the first run, so we loosened it up for the next one. Car felt good on that run, just hit a couple of cones. I then told him "that run didn't really matter anyways, it was just practice for my Geoff Clark beating championship final run." Of course I knew full well it wasn't going to happen, and then Hyman announces it on the mic as Geoff is sitting there at the line waiting on the sweep car. It was quite entertaining.
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Old 09-10-2013, 09:18 AM   #3129
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Geoff drove his tail off, no doubt. But, I also wondered just how advantageous being a single driver was, especially given he was on Dunlops.

While the weather was cooler Thursday, the course was obviously much longer and the turnaround between two-driver cars seemed minimal. My co-driver and I spent the entire time between our runs spraying tires/IC/intake manifold and bleeding pressure. It really felt like we were getting the five car warning immediately after getting back to grid each time.

Luckily for us, the lag between runs seemed to increase on Friday, likely due to not having five cars on course at a time. I can't imagine how bad the tires would have gotten had we run fifth heat.
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Old 09-10-2013, 10:18 AM   #3130
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I was a single driver on the 17" BFG's, and we were making sure they were ice cold before each run. They still fell off early into runs 2 and 3 on each day, so my best run was my first on both days. My car has been pushing more than usual all year and I ran out of time to get it right, so I was happy to have gotten on the podium.

I did compare my new 17" BFG's with my 6 month old 18" BFG's (Which I drove to nats on) on the practice course, and the 17's were just a bit faster. Same issue with both - first run felt the best and was generally the fastest if no mistakes were made.
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Old 09-10-2013, 10:55 AM   #3131
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Shane and I were cooling them quite a bit between runs and they didn't really seem to fall off, at least not much if they did. Definitely not a huge amount as I was able to match first runs on run 6 on the tires, but it all really makes me wonder whether being a single driver on Dunlops might have been better. I guess we'll never know.

Fact of the matter his combination of him/Evo/Dunlops was better than mine of me/STi/BFG's, but I also know that I made some mistakes on both of my runs that shouldn't have happened and would have kept it a lot closer, but I know it still wouldn't have been enough to catch him.
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Old 09-10-2013, 01:29 PM   #3132
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Quote:
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One thing I noted as being odd....

With the exception of 1 EVO on BFGs and 2 STIs on Bridgestones and Hankooks, all the EVOs were on Dunlops, while all the STIs were on BFGs. 17 of the top-18 cars adhered to this pattern.
I wouldn't read too much into it (personally). The two tires are definitely very different and require somewhat significant setup changes (on an EVO anyways), but imho, one isn't necessarily faster than the other... one is
disconcertingly loud and less percise, the other can't handle heat... pick your poison ...oh, and both are garbage in the wet.

I sure wish they never would of made them, the Z1 was such a good all-around tire, it will be missed
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Old 09-10-2013, 02:29 PM   #3133
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I sure wish they never would of made them, the Z1 was such a good all-around tire, it will be missed
Amen!
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Old 09-10-2013, 02:33 PM   #3134
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I was just noting that, in the absence of a technical reason for it, the statistical probability of it lining up like that had to be pretty slim.

Loud, I can handle. I think the precision issue gets to me. I seem to always end up underdriving them looking for that peak that isn't there. The Rival is drastically different from the RS3 and Z1 in that regard. Perhaps I need to just start chucking the car around and let the tires sort it out.

I also noticed the same thing John did in that the Rivals took my neutral setup for Z1s and RS3s and tossed it out the window and replaced it with a massive push. I think I've managed to sort that out, but while I feel the car is handling OK again, the times are just not there.
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Old 09-10-2013, 06:12 PM   #3135
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In my boredom at work today I was looking at videos from nationals and found a video from a Brian Robertson, in his description he's saying someone has an "illegal" car and should have called themself on it. He finished 1 place out of the trophies and is basically calling out someone in class in the trophies with an "illegal" car. Hope it's not one of you guys.
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Old 09-10-2013, 06:31 PM   #3136
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^just watched the video and saw the description.. wonder why he didn't protest at the time if he "knew" the car was "illegal".

Doug, do you know him? He was driving an evo...
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Old 09-10-2013, 06:46 PM   #3137
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I know Brian. If I am right, he likely didn't file because this was his 1st Nationals. Others saw the issue, I don't know why nobody else filed on it. Maybe they all just assumed someone else would. The infraction is an EVO thing. Brian is on here and I'll let him elaborate if he is so inclined.
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Old 09-10-2013, 10:24 PM   #3138
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Brian's on here. We'll let him approach the subject if he feels up to it.
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Old 09-11-2013, 08:36 AM   #3139
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Aside from that description & a few personal fb rants, I have kept it quiet, those that were in attendence know who and what the issue was, it wasn't with Geoff, Josh, John, Shane or Jon. But they were all aware of it, I guess I was following the others lead. We all knew the car wasn't legal as it sat there, and I admittedly should have been the one to throw paper but did not.

Its all done and in the book/final now, no need to rehash it publicly, I already get 12 months to sulk about it (and my day 1 driving), knowing I could have came home with hardware.
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Old 09-11-2013, 09:02 AM   #3140
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I did not know of it, but it's not the first time that STU has turned away from rules infractions (heat shields, boost, excessive fender rolling, etc). Was the boost really that much higher than what is possible through boost creep?
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Old 09-11-2013, 10:48 AM   #3141
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Out of curiosity- how would one go about proving what boost level a competitor is running at? I will admit I have never read the protest chapter of the rulebook, so I don't know how it works.
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Old 09-11-2013, 11:31 AM   #3142
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So, I ran STU also and was not aware. What was illegal and how was it KNOWN? I have no problem calling out cheaters (if it was in FACT a performance boost) and putting up the impound fee

I was on the other side of grid and didn't know (although gridded right next to Brian) - but honestly when running I try to stay away from people as that is how I focus so may have missed hearing the whole ordeal.

If it wasn't those listed above - it was either Mark Hill or Rick Jung. Come on guys - I've seen people get protested over cutting the bumper so the exhaust doesn't catch it on fire. We can't let people get away with things like that, one of the reasons our PAX sucks....

Or was this another case where they just couldn't believe it..... like the M3 last year. Everyone swore he was cheating - but nobody had proof. No proof = didn't happen as far as we are concerned and shouldn't speculate.

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Old 09-11-2013, 12:08 PM   #3143
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Our PAX sucks because Rick has visions of our cars being much faster than they are in reality (and because Geoff is much faster than most in one).
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Old 09-11-2013, 12:18 PM   #3144
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yeah even Geoff was still 184th.. 100th was the TOP spot in any ST* class... and 168th for any RT* car... I think it is pretty well assumed Rick R dispises most AWD classes and/or ST classes.
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Old 09-11-2013, 12:29 PM   #3145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by visibiliti View Post
Out of curiosity- how would one go about proving what boost level a competitor is running at? I will admit I have never read the protest chapter of the rulebook, so I don't know how it works.
You would need to pull the map and compare it against a legal map/stock boost map to confirm. Since STU allows mechanical means of increasing boost (a down pipe that limits movement of the wastegate arm) you wouldn't be able to test it with a simple boost gauge any more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPotter View Post
So, I ran STU also and was not aware. What was illegal and how was it KNOWN? I have no problem calling out cheaters (if it was in FACT a performance boost) and putting up the impound fee

I was on the other side of grid and didn't know (although gridded right next to Brian) - but honestly when running I try to stay away from people as that is how I focus so may have missed hearing the whole ordeal.

If it wasn't those listed above - it was either Mark Hill or Rick Jung. Come on guys - I've seen people get protested over cutting the bumper so the exhaust doesn't catch it on fire. We can't let people get away with things like that, one of the reasons our PAX sucks....

Or was this another case where they just couldn't believe it..... like the M3 last year. Everyone swore he was cheating - but nobody had proof. No proof = didn't happen as far as we are concerned and shouldn't speculate.
Since that red evo driver is too touchy feely, I'll post. The car in question had some illegal boost hose routing. He also had an aftermarket MAP sensor rated to a higher BAR. Personally, I could see the MAP sensor not really being illegal, but if he has a different boost hose routing that's definitely outside the lines.

I wasn't there since I worked while STU ran, so this is what I've read so far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinTX View Post
Our PAX sucks because Rick has visions of our cars being much faster than they are in reality (and because Geoff is much faster than most in one).
Quote:
Originally Posted by bassicfun View Post
yeah even Geoff was still 184th.. 100th was the TOP spot in any ST* class... and 168th for any RT* car... I think it is pretty well assumed Rick R dispises most AWD classes and/or ST classes.
No, Rick is looking at what AWD can do on asphalt AND concrete. It just so happens that Nationals is on concrete where RWD/slicks can put you higher up. PAX isn't just about the big events, it's about all events. Big picture and all that jazz.

Trust me, I'd love to have lower minimum weights in SM for my AWD car, but I doubt it'll ever happen because of other events where we do have the advantage in grip over the RWD/FWD guys.
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Old 09-11-2013, 12:39 PM   #3146
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It was not Richard Jung's car.
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Old 09-11-2013, 01:07 PM   #3147
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It was not Richard Jung's car.
Agreed, that car has almost 10yrs development in it now, was great to finally see it in person!
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Old 09-11-2013, 01:08 PM   #3148
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Our PAX sucks because Rick has visions of our cars being much faster than they are in reality .
I've always felt the same way, lol... that being said, STU was faster than STR this year (like they're supposed to be).

throwing paper/protesting sucks. it'd be great as a community to continue to find a way of policing it ourselves. I'm assuming that the folks there that were aware of the infraction took the guys word that he wasn't using the illegal parts to cheat. (yeah, that doesn't exactly add up does it).
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Old 09-11-2013, 01:37 PM   #3149
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Old 09-11-2013, 05:16 PM   #3150
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I wasn't aware of it during competition. Had the car been protested I would have been one spot out of the trophies :-(
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