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Old 09-26-2012, 11:14 AM   #2426
STirish
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeBop86 View Post
Hey guys, quick question:

What coilover spring rates do STU setups typically use?
600F/650R with 24mm bars front and rear. Seems not to be typical.
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Old 09-26-2012, 12:06 PM   #2427
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500/560 AST 4100s, 25mm tubular front and stock rear bars.

My car is a true DD, however, so the rates were kept reasonable initially. I had concerns about lifting the inside rear, hence the stock rear bar.

When the time comes for a rebuild or my patience expires (whichever comes first), I plan on increasing rates a bit.
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Old 09-26-2012, 01:46 PM   #2428
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I've been contemplating going with some 500lbs fronts. I know Sam Strano has mentioned that my car always looks like it skates a bit in the front before taking a set and turning. His thought was that softer springs might keep it from skating that initial bit before the set. Sam likes his cars soft though, but they're usually fast so...maybe?

I know Rob has tried a ton of different combinations. My car seems to work so I go the lazy route and just leave it as is and only tweak rebound/compression to suit different surfaces.

I'm not smart enough or motivated enough to do all the work required to get to an "optimum" setup.
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Old 09-26-2012, 03:26 PM   #2429
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piknockout View Post
I've been contemplating going with some 500lbs fronts. I know Sam Strano has mentioned that my car always looks like it skates a bit in the front before taking a set and turning. His thought was that softer springs might keep it from skating that initial bit before the set. Sam likes his cars soft though, but they're usually fast so...maybe?
Bartek and Hubert tell me the same thing. Hmmmmm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by piknockout View Post
I'm not smart enough or motivated enough to do all the work required to get to an "optimum" setup.
Says the guy with access to a lift and alignment machine...
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Old 09-26-2012, 03:30 PM   #2430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piknockout View Post
I've been contemplating going with some 500lbs fronts. I know Sam Strano has mentioned that my car always looks like it skates a bit in the front before taking a set and turning. His thought was that softer springs might keep it from skating that initial bit before the set. Sam likes his cars soft though, but they're usually fast so...maybe?

I know Rob has tried a ton of different combinations. My car seems to work so I go the lazy route and just leave it as is and only tweak rebound/compression to suit different surfaces.

I'm not smart enough or motivated enough to do all the work required to get to an "optimum" setup.
Try the changes. I ran 400/500 last year for an event or two. Much more comfortable on the street. In competition the car moved around a good bit more, I surmise, requiring some serious changes to alignment and/or bar changes. Might be able to be made to work. Easier to pick up wheels pigeonholing the setup in a certain direction. When a large enough amount of roll control is added to the car other setup options are opened.

It can be argued that a stiff setup has the potential to be faster than a softer setup if the driver is capable of driving the car at the limit.

Oh, and the stock guys seem to lean toward softer is better. Go figure. One other thing I have learned is Fast Driver != Setup Expert. Not saying anything about anyone specific.

Cheers,
Rob

Last edited by STirish; 09-26-2012 at 04:01 PM.
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Old 09-26-2012, 03:42 PM   #2431
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Do you guys think 650/600 is to much spring for street tires?
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Old 09-26-2012, 08:45 PM   #2432
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600lb front / 600lb rear
WL 24/26 fsb set to 24
Perrin 22mm adj rear set to soft
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Old 09-26-2012, 08:53 PM   #2433
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeBop86 View Post
Do you guys think 650/600 is to much spring for street tires?
Nope. But match your sway bars accordingly. If I raced this year, I was gonna do 700lb front with the WL 24/26 set to 24 or the stock fsb. I believe my current setup has to little front roll stiffness as I pick up an inside rear a bit to much for my liking.

Josh I would try a simple change as putting your fsb to 24 and seeing if it solves your issue. Your T2's may have a bit more droop travel than my AST's that will keep you from having my issue.
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Old 09-26-2012, 08:56 PM   #2434
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STirish View Post
Try the changes. I ran 400/500 last year for an event or two. Much more comfortable on the street. In competition the car moved around a good bit more, I surmise, requiring some serious changes to alignment and/or bar changes. Might be able to be made to work. Easier to pick up wheels pigeonholing the setup in a certain direction. When a large enough amount of roll control is added to the car other setup options are opened.

It can be argued that a stiff setup has the potential to be faster than a softer setup if the driver is capable of driving the car at the limit.

Oh, and the stock guys seem to lean toward softer is better. Go figure. One other thing I have learned is Fast Driver != Setup Expert. Not saying anything about anyone specific.

Cheers,
Rob
Yes and yes in so many ways.
I need to get to more national events so I can meet you Rob we would have alot to talk about
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Old 09-26-2012, 09:00 PM   #2435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Illini_STi View Post
I'm also at 600/500 but with the smaller Whiteline front bar and stock rear bar.

I have heard of people running 700/700, but that seems like too much to me.

I've been toying with the idea of going back to 500/400 and bigger bars. If only changing springs wasn't a total PITA.

Also, anybody know of a good calculator to do ride and roll rates? I seem to remember one floating around a while ago. It would do the rates and then also calculate weight transfer for a given lateral or longitudinal g.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1292451

There you go...not sure if the link is still alive to download it...let me know as i have it on one of my computers.
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Old 09-27-2012, 12:43 AM   #2436
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdi View Post
Yes and yes in so many ways.
I need to get to more national events so I can meet you Rob we would have alot to talk about
For sure. The plan is to be out a good bit next year. Bring Josh to Blytheville next year.

Last edited by STirish; 09-27-2012 at 12:49 AM.
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Old 09-27-2012, 09:27 AM   #2437
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdi View Post
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1292451

There you go...not sure if the link is still alive to download it...let me know as i have it on one of my computers.
Yeah, linky no worky. Can you PM it to me?
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Old 09-27-2012, 09:37 AM   #2438
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piknockout View Post
I've been contemplating going with some 500lbs fronts. I know Sam Strano has mentioned that my car always looks like it skates a bit in the front before taking a set and turning. His thought was that softer springs might keep it from skating that initial bit before the set. Sam likes his cars soft though, but they're usually fast so...maybe?

I know Rob has tried a ton of different combinations. My car seems to work so I go the lazy route and just leave it as is and only tweak rebound/compression to suit different surfaces.

I'm not smart enough or motivated enough to do all the work required to get to an "optimum" setup.
Have you looked at pics from Nationals to see how much you're rolling?

I can't imagine going down from my current rates... was even thinking about trying to get more stiffness out of the stock front bar or going up in rate a little.

... all so that it can be slightly faster the twice a year it sees concrete
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Old 09-27-2012, 10:43 AM   #2439
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I think this is at the initial turn into the showcase on the West course. Should be a fairly close comparison I think. Thanks to David Cosseboom for the photos!

My car:




Rob's car:




John's car:
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Old 09-27-2012, 10:47 AM   #2440
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Here's an interesting pic for you Rob. It's from the very first right hander on the West course I believe.





And another view of mine. Now analyze it all Iman.

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Old 09-27-2012, 02:20 PM   #2441
STirish
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piknockout View Post
Here's an interesting pic for you Rob. It's from the very first right hander on the West course I believe.

Oh yeah, my little fella will pick up wheels here and there when trail braking. Still tweaking the setup. Especially for that surface.

Last edited by STirish; 09-27-2012 at 08:07 PM.
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Old 09-27-2012, 02:45 PM   #2442
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SubieEngineer View Post
I've been hearing mumblings of this the last 6 months or so. If there's at least one noticeable difference between the T2s and the V3s it's the rear linear springs.
They are definitely valved differently. The rear valving on V3's is super super soft especially. I didn't have anything to do with the development on the T2s but I have seen the dynos. They actually did see some time at KW's shake rig in Germany.

600 is definitely the edge of what they can handle. Some have had better luck then others, which definitely does kinda stink. KW customer service is good but slow. It's gotten better though.

FWIW the STU nationals winning STI running RCE Tarmac 2's was running softer than 600 up front. I dig ASTs and JRZ and Ohlins but the T2s do the trick and have won at this level on a Subaru (with a pretty good driver).

- Andrew
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Old 09-27-2012, 10:26 PM   #2443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRoo View Post
They are definitely valved differently. The rear valving on V3's is super super soft especially. I didn't have anything to do with the development on the T2s but I have seen the dynos. They actually did see some time at KW's shake rig in Germany.

600 is definitely the edge of what they can handle. Some have had better luck then others, which definitely does kinda stink. KW customer service is good but slow. It's gotten better though.

FWIW the STU nationals winning STI running RCE Tarmac 2's was running softer than 600 up front. I dig ASTs and JRZ and Ohlins but the T2s do the trick and have won at this level on a Subaru (with a pretty good driver).

- Andrew
Thanks for the info. I know they're supposed to be, but I've also seen posts claiming otherwise with regard to the T2 versus V3 valving.
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Old 09-28-2012, 12:26 AM   #2444
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piknockout View Post
I think this is at the initial turn into the showcase on the West course. Should be a fairly close comparison I think. Thanks to David Cosseboom for the photos!
...
John's car:
... Yeah. Maybe more front spring
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Old 09-28-2012, 01:27 PM   #2445
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Josh,
Is that a V-limited spoiler on ur whip? Looking good!

John,
Digging the wheel color...painted or powder coated?
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Old 09-29-2012, 12:21 AM   #2446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdi View Post
Josh,
Is that a V-limited spoiler on ur whip? Looking good!

John,
Digging the wheel color...painted or powder coated?
V-limited wouldn't be legal the way the rules sit..

They are powdercoated I believe, but the previous owner did it - I was just searching for "17x9.5" on evoM and these turned up
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Old 09-29-2012, 10:34 AM   #2447
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It's some eBay special lip I got from a buddy. And it should be legal John. Last I checked the rule, stock or stock replica was legal.
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Old 10-01-2012, 10:16 PM   #2448
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The way Josh's car was set-up for the Practice course was almost perfect. The car was very well balanced and did everything I wanted. On the main course, the grip was higher so the rear was not breaking out like on the practice course, which resulted in a lot of under steer after the initial turn in. The initial turn in was always good but then the rears would not break out after about 5-10feet in the turn. This resulted in us having to slow down so the car would tuck in again. After Josh made the adjustments for my 3rd run on day 1, the car could now hold the angle I wanted after the initial turn in. The distance was 2 times greater than before so not only could I get the car in a better position than before but I could get on the gas earlier as the car was neutral. It now felt similar to the Practice course but Josh made not only shock changes but also rear pressure changes.

The other side to this is that I changed my driving style to more of a Grip/tight technique vs my normal technique. With my more conservative style, the car felt good so that means it would be better with my normal style. On Day 2, I just drove normal with the same setting and the car still felt great. Josh got FTD with that set-up too, showing that it was working.

I think Josh's car doesnt need to have the lower spring rates but we can simply do similar drastic tweaks to the shocks and tire pressure to loosen the rear as needed. The initial front bite tells me that the car is transferring the weight well but when you are in a steady state, the rear grips and you loose your YAW angle, causing you to understeer. Even at the "loose" setting the car was never really loose that the rear comes around too much.
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Old 10-01-2012, 10:33 PM   #2449
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I agree Shane, the car feels great. I have no complaints. The real question is whether there's a better setup than what we currently have. I'm not convinced that I'm that good to get it right on the very first try 4 years ago...but perhaps it's just dumb luck that we've only ever made slight shock/tire pressure adjustments.

:dunno:
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Old 10-01-2012, 10:34 PM   #2450
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Originally Posted by piknockout View Post
Last I checked the rule, stock or stock replica was legal.
Was the v-limited lip ever offered on a USDM car though? It may be "oem" but not USDM OEM...
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