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Old 03-29-2006, 01:59 AM   #1
gpatmac
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Default probably elementary questions - maf scaling, afr targets, UTEC wg control

1. How does maf scaling differ from injector scaling? Should I turn it on or off if I already have OLF selected with settings for injector scaling set?

2. I would reference a tremendous advice post that Nathan made over on wrxhackers, but the site is down for me. However, many of y'all have probably seen it. He pretty much breaks down his targetting in phases. Phase 1 being low load, phase 2 is spool-up, phase 3 is max torque, and phase 4 is more or less where the torque curve decreases.
a. I was attempting to tune my low load, but am uncertain if the following log would be phase 1 or phase two. note: logged in 6th gear. Colors don't represent anything except to call out distinctions for me.
link to short log

3. I'm not able to fully grasp the wg control in the special parameters. 0 is off and the manual says, "As a starting point it is suggested that this parameter be set at 6 psi less than the minimum boost setting." Minimum boost setting? Minimum value for mapping? I understand it's supposed to assist your gain, but exactly how?

Lastly, I've been trying to get in some tuning while commuting, which means I'm able to tune in short bursts. Anyhow, it's taken me a while but I've gotten all of my maps set to be at least 'safe' in order to baseline and then build from there. However, I'm still knocking.

For one thing, I'm not hearing any knock through the TUNER's knock mic. Maybe I just don't know what I'm listening for, but I'm not hearing a thing. For that reason, I set my 4k-5k knock sensitivity from 90 to 85, raised my knock count threshold from 1 to 2, and raised my CEL knock threshold from 0 to 2. I did that tonight after I logged the attached log below. My fingers are crossed for next time.

Also, I'm using the UTEC to control boost, however, I was seeing way too much, so I set my boost map to ECU across the board. The ABC is completely shut, but I'm still seeing quite a bit.

For those that don't know, I have the Green, a built 2.5 block, headers and a 3" catless exhaust. I'm thinking that the knock is due to the high amount of boost. For reference, the 18psi is in 4th gear. I pulled off because of the flashing CEL. The 20.8 is in 5th gear.

Here's that log file

Any advice or perspective is appreciated.

Thanks
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Old 03-29-2006, 04:03 AM   #2
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Because your A/F still very rich and your boost is not very high ... try to set your timing from 4250-4750 at 14 or 13.5 at 80-90% load column.
Try to run your A/F between 10.5:1 to 10:8 depend on the octane fuel you use.
If still free of knock ... try to get 11:1. I believe you will gain HP and Torque.

What is your Compression ratio?

There is a posibility that you are running too rich and the engine might misfire and the Utec detect it as 1 knock. Just my 2 cnts.
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Old 03-29-2006, 07:17 AM   #3
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Thank you for your response.

CR=8.2:1. I'm trying to tune a 93oct map. What I started out with was very lean, so the result is that though I'm now very rich, the knock I'm seeing is the same I was seeing when I was lean. 1 count each line at around 4500-5000 or so.

Are you referring to the first log or the second? My target for the 80-100 columns at WOT are ~10.8:1, but should I be shooting for leaner like 12:1 in the 40-70 columns (above 4500 or so) and like 14.0:1 in the 10-30 columns (initial on-throttle)?

Thanks again,
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Old 03-29-2006, 07:36 AM   #4
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It will knock if it is too rich as well which looks like your problem. 9.7:1 is WAY TOO RICH. Clean up the A/F and make it consistant. You ideally want it to be 10.8:1-11.1:1 around peak (or full boost) and towards redline taper it to around 10.5:1-10.8:1.

Once you clean up your A/F curve then work with your timing, but dont greedy. Also, depending on how much boost you plan to run you may want to adjust the maximum boost setting for mapping. Looking at your logs it looks as though your never getting into the 90 or 100% load site columns. That and you may want to recalibrate your TPS calibration as well. You want your TPS value to 100+% when your are WOT.

Just a few suggestions.

-Matt
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Old 03-29-2006, 08:21 AM   #5
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Thank you.

How quickly onto throttle should I be shooting for 10.8:1 to 11.1:1? Should I be seeing 21psi on just the wastegate spring (that's what setting the map to ECU does, right?)
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Old 03-29-2006, 11:21 AM   #6
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Basically you want to make a pull in 4th or 5th gear starting at around 2000rpms and log it. That way you can get a log of a wide range of rpms and make adjustments accordingly. When I do a pull on the dyno it will hold it at 2000rpms, I try and shoot for a 13.1:1 A/F and richen it up from there as the boost rises. BY the time you hit full boost you want it to be in the 10.8:1-11.1:1 A/F range. Then as you approach redline you want to richen it up a bit.

If you can get the log and then post it or send it to me I can help you work on the A/F curve and possibly some of the timing values.

-Matt
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Old 03-29-2006, 11:23 AM   #7
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And if you want wastegate boost you may want to try and just loop the fitting on the compressor housing to the fitting on the Wastegate Actuator. If you have ECU in your boost map and the ABC fully closed then you should be seeing whatever stock boost is set to in your ECU. If you are seeing 21psi then that is definitely not wastegate boost unless you running some highly upgraded actuator. Try the first suggestion to see what kind of boost that yeilds.

-Matt
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Old 03-29-2006, 01:41 PM   #8
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Matt, again, thanks very much. I'm getting there...tentatively.

Here's from this morning: http://files.gpatmac.com/UTEC/MAR06/29MAR06b.htm
-red is timing decreasing slightly.
-yellow is just to call out the wacky knock and a slight dip in AFRs somewhat early on.

When you say loop the compressor nipple to the wg nipple, do you mean with no T to the ABC like I have it now? I set my fuel cut to 22 and my map max to 19 this morning and as you can see in the above log, it goes a bit over 22.

Pat
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Old 03-29-2006, 01:42 PM   #9
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I would post my earlier map, but it's kinda ugly...and I wouldn't want anyone to see my mis-shift to 7800rpm.
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Old 03-29-2006, 01:55 PM   #10
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Oh, and I almost forgot.

I've tried repeatedly to recalibrate my Bosch UEGO sensor with my TUNER (though I haven't tried ride5000's method, yet.) I'm getting consistent readings and the setting in the TUNER's parameters is 268, if I recall. I've tried calibrating it through the hyperterm interface and also by switching the #3 jumper on the TUNER.

It's giving me an error code of er1. The sensor's temperature won't stabilize or something.
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Old 03-29-2006, 02:51 PM   #11
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Yes, I am talking about eliminating the T all together. Just loop a line from the fitting on the compressor housing to the nipple on the wastegate. Are you running a restrictor pill in the line from your T to the compressor housing? If not this could also be the reason your boost is spiking. When using the stock boost solenoid you HAVE to run the restrictor.

-Matt
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Old 03-29-2006, 04:03 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpatmac
Matt, again, thanks very much. I'm getting there...tentatively.

Here's from this morning: http://files.gpatmac.com/UTEC/MAR06/29MAR06b.htm
-red is timing decreasing slightly.
-yellow is just to call out the wacky knock and a slight dip in AFRs somewhat early on.

When you say loop the compressor nipple to the wg nipple, do you mean with no T to the ABC like I have it now? I set my fuel cut to 22 and my map max to 19 this morning and as you can see in the above log, it goes a bit over 22.

Pat
your knocks are quite strange .. 1 knock repeatly from 4600-7000 rpm ... I think maybe utec knock sensor catch your engine noise as knock or you got bad tank.

Who's build block do you use? Forged piston & rod?

Try to pull more timing from 4750-7000 rpm at 90-100% column to see if you still get knock. Your A/F looks better and you hit higher boost and load.
You still can lean out your 30-60% column. Just my 2 cents
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Old 03-29-2006, 06:06 PM   #13
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Matt, I am using the bb. I will take a look at hooking the compressor and wg together. 22psi, even on the green, is just too much for a daily driver.

Mica, that's my suspicion too.

I used an earbud with the TXS Tuner and I didn't hear any knock. I'm not certain if I know what I'm listening for; I have heard audible knock many times in the past (not on this engine) so I know what that sounds like. I didn't hear anything that resembled knock to me. You know, as a side note, JBlaine posted a thread a while back where he had sound clips where some of the clips may have had knock. I didn't hear anything distinctive in his clips.

The block is a stock ej257 that I put CP Pistons in. There's about 3 or 4 minutes of the engine sounding a bit like a diesel when I first start it, but that really only happens when it's cold outside.

I will pull timing in the 90-100 above 4500. That sounds like it will be a perfect test. You're absolutely right about 30-60; I've just planned on getting to that once I ironed out the problem areas. This map is only for 92 or 93 octane anyhow.

Thanks a lot. Y'all's advice is money.

Last edited by gpatmac; 03-29-2006 at 06:12 PM.
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Old 03-29-2006, 08:29 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpatmac
Matt, I am using the bb. I will take a look at hooking the compressor and wg together. 22psi, even on the green, is just too much for a daily driver.


Thanks a lot. Y'all's advice is money.
What do you mean by "bb"? When I say restrictor in the line, I am reffering to the brass restrictor that was in the stock lines. It is in the line that goes from the nipple on the compressor housing to one of the fittings on the T. You should be able to feel it inside the hose. As I said the stock boost solenoid requires that you use it.

As I said before, if you can get a good log of 4th or 5th gear (on a 6spd) then I can really give you some good pointers on how to adjust your map.

-Matt
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Old 03-29-2006, 09:19 PM   #15
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I'm sorry. By bb, that's what I meant. I'm using the oem little 3" hose with the restrictor in it. I may get the ABC out of the equation tonight and go with the comp-to-wg hoselet, but that is such a bitch on the green.

I did log 4th gear tonight, but it wasn't from 2k on. I'm assuming you're talking about a fairly slow throttle in order to see with better resolution.

On this one, I'm used to logging at around the point where the turbo can spool the easiest, ~3700-4000rpm. Also, I took one point of timing out from 80% up, above 4750; just to see if the knock would still be there like Mica was talking about.

The colors again don't mean anything; just that I know the spots (yellow) that I need to fix in the fuel map (note how much fluctuation I have in the mod fuel column) and how the boost wavers a bit (blue).

http://files.gpatmac.com/UTEC/MAR06/29MAR06c.htm <--is there a more preferred method for showing my logs than how I am doing?
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Old 03-29-2006, 10:35 PM   #16
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Yeah, definitely try to loop them. That will help your figure out where the problem with boost control lyes.

Well with doing a pull from 2000-2500rpms you can stomp on it and the car will do its thing and you will be able to see a full range of the rpms and boost will build gradually. That way it is easier to tune before full boost to get everything to transition smoothly. By logging a run where you sitting at the rpms you would normally see full boost, it is harder for you to get a good log to tune by.

I would still suggest sorting out the A/F ratio, your getting pretty close. Just get rid of those spots where your still in the 9's and lean out the rest until your around 10.8:1. Once you have the A/F sorted, if your still seeing knock then you will want to pull 2 degree's of timing from the rpms where you begin to see knock all the way to redline. Also look for large inconsistancies in the timing curve. You dont want to go from 19degress to say 13 degrees or vis versa.

-Matt
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Old 03-29-2006, 11:58 PM   #17
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Roger that. With your advice, it's clear what I need to do.

I've been checking every log and I'm seeing consistent timing. However, even after listening to the Tuner detcan and not seeing any pulled timing, I don't want to make a snap judgement that I'm not actually knocking. I'd rather pull timing, seeing how it reacts, and be safe.
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Old 03-30-2006, 08:14 AM   #18
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follow Matt suggestion ... try not to make the timing jump no more than 3

Last edited by WRX-Blue-Mica; 03-30-2006 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 04-01-2006, 06:53 PM   #19
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Matt,

I'm not lazy, but haven't gotten around to making any changes; ref. turbo/wastegate hose and maps.

However, I managed to get in a pull on the way home, 4th gear from 2k on. I pulled off before it got to redline because it felt like it pulled timing. As you'll see in the attached log, it's pretty clear why (highlighted in red.) I'm attaching my lastest map as well; it's not at all clear why timing would have jumped like that.

01 APR logfile
01 APR MAP

lastly, like I said, I didn't hook up that turbo hose yet, but I forgot to ask something. The hose I use, if I'm mating compressor nipple directly to wg nipple...should it have the restrictor pill in it or no?

I'd like to run an autox tomorrow, but I know I still have some work to do. I need to get on the ball.
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Old 04-02-2006, 01:48 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpatmac
Matt,

I'm not lazy, but haven't gotten around to making any changes; ref. turbo/wastegate hose and maps.

However, I managed to get in a pull on the way home, 4th gear from 2k on. I pulled off before it got to redline because it felt like it pulled timing. As you'll see in the attached log, it's pretty clear why (highlighted in red.) I'm attaching my lastest map as well; it's not at all clear why timing would have jumped like that.

01 APR logfile
01 APR MAP

lastly, like I said, I didn't hook up that turbo hose yet, but I forgot to ask something. The hose I use, if I'm mating compressor nipple directly to wg nipple...should it have the restrictor pill in it or no?

I'd like to run an autox tomorrow, but I know I still have some work to do. I need to get on the ball.

Pat ... your highlight is on the fuel map ... not on timing side?
Your fuel numbers is quite normal because that numbers are interpolating from 1.6 to 2.0 numbers from your 100% column load.

Your timing numbers doesn't look jumping at all ... anyway instead of showing timing map .. you showing fuel map ...

You already have low timing number and still rich A/F ... so your knock is very questionable. Better to go to profesional tuner to check the knocks ... but to me (personal opinion) ... your knocks are your engine noise. Just my 2 cents
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Old 04-02-2006, 07:12 AM   #21
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Oh shoot! What must I have been smoking?
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Old 04-02-2006, 01:04 PM   #22
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I dunno if this has been said cause I missed a few posts, but from what I remember greens have 18psi wastegates. So the lowest boost you're gonna be able to run is 18psi. That doesn't mean you'll always be able to hold 18psi though. I'd think 21psi in certain situations would be normal, but could be fixed mechanically.

Peace
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Old 04-02-2006, 08:33 PM   #23
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I don't want to run 18 necessarily. I just wanted to reach minimum and then tune upwards. I was just concerned that I was peaking at ~21 with the UTEC set to ECU and the abc closed fully.

I know I'd should be safe at 21 on 93, but I wanted to tune my fuel & timing before I begin turning up the wick.
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Old 04-02-2006, 08:35 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpatmac
Matt,

I'm not lazy, but haven't gotten around to making any changes; ref. turbo/wastegate hose and maps.

However, I managed to get in a pull on the way home, 4th gear from 2k on. I pulled off before it got to redline because it felt like it pulled timing. As you'll see in the attached log, it's pretty clear why (highlighted in red.) I'm attaching my lastest map as well; it's not at all clear why timing would have jumped like that.

01 APR logfile
01 APR MAP

lastly, like I said, I didn't hook up that turbo hose yet, but I forgot to ask something. The hose I use, if I'm mating compressor nipple directly to wg nipple...should it have the restrictor pill in it or no?

I'd like to run an autox tomorrow, but I know I still have some work to do. I need to get on the ball.
No you will not need a restrictor in the line if you loop the wastegate and the fitting on the compressor housing. The only reason you have to use the restrictor is if your using the stock boost solenoid to control boost.

Your definitely still very rich where you are showing knock. Everything up until it is showing knock looks good. Work on leaning it out some more and see what happens. If you still get knock with after you get the A/F where it needs to be, then chances are you are getting false knock due to your forged pistons.

-Matt
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Old 04-03-2006, 09:22 AM   #25
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Thanks.

A little OT but to show how she's doing. I leaned out my map. Not to near 11:1 but I got it to ~10.5:1 or so. Note the pouring rain.
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