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Old 04-03-2006, 04:22 AM   #1
phantomsr
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Default Cobb STG2 with a few extras.. How are these logs?

Took a log of my STG2+++ EJ207 today. Looks pretty good. Timing a little bit low but my MAF g/s for comparable RPM's and boost seem a lot higher than everyone elses. Anyone see any issues here? Bad MAF?

Code:
RPM     TPS     MAF(g/s) TMGº   KC      Inj%  Knock     MAP(PSI)
2218	100.00	44.43	  14	4	15.14	0	1.451
2202	100.00	39.71	  14	8	15.50	0	2.322
2241	100.00	42.18	  30	8	16.73	0	2.902
2311	100.00	45.15	  27	8	17.75	0	3.627
2339	100.00	48.11	  25	8	18.96	0	4.353
2382	100.00	50.68	  22	8	19.82	0	5.224
2422	100.00	55.15	  20	8	21.19	0	5.804
2496	100.00	60.48	  19	8	23.42	0	6.820
2544	100.00	65.73	  15	5	24.96	0	7.835
2571	100.00	70.30	  14	5	26.88	0	9.286
2649	100.00	78.36	  16	8	30.52	0	10.157
2720	100.00	85.74	  14	8	33.66	0	11.898
2798	100.00	97.07	  13	7	37.61	0	13.639
2852	100.00	101.78	  13	6	40.15	0	15.235
2939	100.00	104.71	  13	6	41.38	0	15.671
3013	100.00	110.71	  13	6	42.42	0	15.816
3075	100.00	112.50	  11	4	43.95	0	15.961
3164	100.00	114.28	  11	4	45.23	0	16.106
3261	100.00	119.01	  11	4	47.99	0	16.251
3313	100.00	122.26	  10	4	49.47	0	16.396
3453	100.00	128.03	  11	5	52.30	0	16.541
3482	100.00	128.59	  11	5	53.48	0	16.541
3585	100.00	135.12	  11	5	56.59	0	16.541
3641	100.00	141.32	  11	5	58.25	0	16.686
3742	100.00	143.12	  12	5	59.88	0	16.686
3838	100.00	144.33	  13	5	60.59	0	16.396
3910	100.00	146.45	  13	5	60.89	0	15.961
3972	100.00	146.75	  15	6	61.01	0	15.816
4069	100.00	151.06	  16	6	64.24	0	15.671
4134	100.00	153.58	  13	4	65.27	0	15.816
4178	100.00	156.17	  13	4	65.96	0	15.961
4269	100.00	161.95	  11	2	69.21	0	16.106
4350	100.00	165.54	  10	2	70.53	0	16.106
4401	100.00	169.24	  11	2	72.30	0	16.106
4499	100.00	170.98	  11	3	73.90	0	16.251
4601	100.00	174.48	  11	3	76.56	0	16.106
4629	100.00	173.43	  12	4	77.03	0	15.961
4699	100.00	175.18	  12	4	78.19	0	15.816
4753	100.00	177.27	  12	4	79.08	0	15.816
4836	100.00	181.46	  13	4	81.49	0	15.671
4905	100.00	185.38	  14	4	82.67	0	15.671
5020	100.00	185.38	  14	3	84.60	0	15.671
5037	100.00	190.61	  15	3	85.96	0	15.525
5151	100.00	189.55	  17	4	86.81	0	15.235
5252	100.00	193.23	  18	4	87.39	0	15.090
5300	100.00	196.59	  18	4	89.32	0	14.945
5346	100.00	198.83	  18	4	90.09	0	14.800
5450	100.00	197.34	  19	4	90.69	0	14.655
5486	100.00	200.33	  19	5	91.29	0	14.510
5560	100.00	199.21	  19	5	91.32	0	14.365
5639	100.00	197.71	  20	5	92.63	0	14.075
5703	100.00	199.21	  18	2	92.47	0	13.929
5725	100.00	202.25	  18	2	92.82	0	13.784
5837	100.00	201.08	  19	2	93.38	0	13.639
5873	100.00	204.20	  18	2	93.97	0	13.494
5948	100.00	201.85	  18	2	93.89	0	13.349
5986	100.00	200.33	  19	2	93.21	0	13.059
6088	100.00	203.00	  19	2	93.50	0	13.059
6088	100.00	203.40	  19	2	93.50	0	12.769
6198	100.00	203.00	  20	2	95.20	0	12.914
6234	100.00	202.60	  22	2	94.43	0	12.769
6271	100.00	202.60	  22	2	93.64	0	12.769
6334	100.00	202.60	  23	2	93.24	0	12.624
6427	100.00	201.45	  23	2	93.23	0	12.624
6471	100.00	203.40	  23	2	93.87	0	12.624
6505	100.00	206.20	  24	2	94.36	0	12.478
6573	100.00	205.40	  24	2	93.95	0	12.624
6620	100.00	205.00	  24	2	94.61	0	12.624
6655	100.00	205.40	  24	2	93.70	0	12.624
6655	100.00	205.40	  24	2	93.70	0	12.624
IAM is at 16. Mods beyond stage 2 are PnP IC elbows, Perrin IC and turbo inlet hose, PnP TB, PnP stock exhaust to the turbo, gutted stock up-pipe, perrin panel filter, Weisco 8.35:1 forged pistons, billet steel con rods, STi valves. I think that's it for engine stuff.

Smells a little rich at idle and my factory O2 states it's at 14.7 AFR. Wondering if the MAF reading is off. EGT's are normal, and peak to 1500 at the very end of this run. EGT mounted on the manifold button on drivers side.
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Old 04-03-2006, 10:49 AM   #2
JRSCCivic98
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You're gona want to get that ProTuned with the changed compression ratio there...
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Old 04-03-2006, 01:14 PM   #3
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^^what he said^^
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Old 04-03-2006, 02:53 PM   #4
drees
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phantomsr
Code:
RPM     TPS     MAF(g/s) TMGº   KC      Inj%  Knock     MAP(PSI)
2852	100.00	101.78	  13	6	40.15	0	15.235
2939	100.00	104.71	  13	6	41.38	0	15.671
3013	100.00	110.71	  13	6	42.42	0	15.816
3075	100.00	112.50	  11	4	43.95	0	15.961
3164	100.00	114.28	  11	4	45.23	0	16.106
3261	100.00	119.01	  11	4	47.99	0	16.251

3972	100.00	146.75	  15	6	61.01	0	15.816
4069	100.00	151.06	  16	6	64.24	0	15.671
4134	100.00	153.58	  13	4	65.27	0	15.816
4178	100.00	156.17	  13	4	65.96	0	15.961
4269	100.00	161.95	  11	2	69.21	0	16.106
4350	100.00	165.54	  10	2	70.53	0	16.106
4401	100.00	169.24	  11	2	72.30	0	16.106

5486	100.00	200.33	  19	5	91.29	0	14.510
5560	100.00	199.21	  19	5	91.32	0	14.365
5639	100.00	197.71	  20	5	92.63	0	14.075
5703	100.00	199.21	  18	2	92.47	0	13.929
5725	100.00	202.25	  18	2	92.82	0	13.784
5837	100.00	201.08	  19	2	93.38	0	13.639
Knock Knock Knock! Who's there?

IAM may be at 16, but it looks like the ECU is seeing some serious knock at the points I quoted above. KC should be 6+ there with the IAM at 16.

Go back to the stock realtime map until you can get a real tune, otherwise you will see a thrown rod in the future due to bearing damage.
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Old 04-03-2006, 05:19 PM   #5
phantomsr
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I still need to toss in a catch can. Have a little oil in the intercooler which I'm pretty sure is from the valve seals. The oil may be causing some of my det problems. Also need to step down a range on the plugs.

I agree with needing a tune 100%, I only ever see WOT if I'm testing. I'm normally stuck in traffic like everyone else and barely break 30% throttle. I'm running 94 octane but in Canada that means a 10% ethanol blend. I'm waiting for some $ to pick up street tuner and a WB so I can iron out the tune. No 4 wheel dyno available anywhere remotely close yet, so log, tweak, log, tweak, log, tweak, log, tweak, log, is all I can do.

Anyone know how well the knock sensor state on stays high after a knock event using ecuexplorer? My queries are running at 180ms with my current logged dataset and I think I heard 1 knock event in the run I posted but nothing on the knock sensor.
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Old 04-03-2006, 06:38 PM   #6
drees
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Catch can and colder plugs may help the detonation a bit. I would avoid WOT until you get the thing tuned, the ST and WB will get you going in the right direction.

Trying to log knock using a logger is just about impossible, like finding a needle in a haystack. Best bet is to get a real knock sensor like the TurboXS KnockLite or KnockLink with a dedicated knock sensor. Just about necessary IMO along with the WBO2 sensor for safe tuning.
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Old 04-03-2006, 08:59 PM   #7
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Yeah the Knock value on the loggers is totally useless. It's there because it exists and they figured they might as well let you log it, but you will almost NEVER see knock reported there even if you're getting bigtime knock events. It's a binary value and it only registers as 1 if the knock is happening at the exact moment the log datum is queried, which as we see in your logs, doesn't happen much.
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Old 04-04-2006, 02:02 AM   #8
phantomsr
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Yeah, I took another pass at it tonight after reflashing the 1.30 version of the maps. IAM up to 16, KC values started betwen 7 and 10 and dwindled to 3-4 in the same places, 4k and 5.5k. Audible knock also. No more WOT until I retune. Also getting a lot of false knock at idle with the forged pistons. Valvetrain noise and piston slap are hard to listen over for minor knock events. Going to try reshim the valvetrain when I get a chance to reduce some of the ambient noise when I'm trying to listen for knock. Didn't think the .35 extra compression would make that much of a difference since I'm running 94 octane but that just goes to show how little an OTS map can handle.
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Old 04-04-2006, 07:50 AM   #9
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I'm not disagreeing with the advice to get tuned, but I'm curious about signs to look for when tuning.

Every car is different, right? Also, the ECU is designed to detect and compensate for knock, right? If IAM is still at 16 and the ECU has pulled some timing in a few areas to correct for knock, hasn't the ECU done its job? What if IAM was 12 but KC values were higher?

The liklihood of getting knock is affected by lots of factors like gas quality, engine condition, or weather. If I were in phantomsr's shoes, how would I know the difference between, "Cool! IAM is 16 so everything is good" and "Uh-oh. The ECU's pulling timing, so time for a retune."
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Old 04-04-2006, 01:35 PM   #10
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The problem is that with a bad tune, the ECU will push the knock boundary too much and cause you to see frequent severe detonation. The ECU is also limited in what it can do to limit knock - it only pulls timing. Manifold pressure and fueling also play a large part in determining knock.

Ideally the ECU would pull timing up to a certain point, then richen up to a certain point and then start pulling boost or some combination of all 3 to control detonation.

Also, trying to use your ears to detect detonation for tuning is nearly useless. If you can hear detonation, it's very severe. You need detcans to amplify knock noise to be able to listen for it in a useful way.
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Old 04-05-2006, 02:16 PM   #11
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yeah, pulling timing is good, but less than 10 degrees of timing at 4350 isn't the right solution in my books. I first need to eliminate other causes of excessive detonation like oil vapors, and a stage cooler plugs. I also need to get my hands on a WB02 but no one has one around here and I really don't want to buy one just for me at this point. I tried to convince the Suby dealer here to pick one up and rent it out. Sounds like they are going to do it which would be great. We have 2 dealers here, one sucks but the other is great thanks to their parts manager.

I have way to many factors outside the standard Cobb STG 2 to deal with that the map is pretty ineffective. 10% ethanol blend fuel and 8.35:1 comp pistons being the major ones. Wiseco assures you that the enhanced quench pads and crown design will eliminate any detonation caused by the slight increase in compression but this doesn't appear to be the case. It'll be some time before I have a chance to pick at the ST so I'll be running the 91 octane map on 94 in order to give me a little safeguard.
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Old 04-05-2006, 02:42 PM   #12
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Which map were those logs above done with? Stg2 91 or 93? Regardless, I would recommend that you stick with the stock map and do some datalogs to be sure the ECU thinks things are OK before doing much full throttle!
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Old 04-05-2006, 02:53 PM   #13
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Bah, no more WOT until I can retune.. that's not a problem. The logs above were with the STG2 93 Octave v1.22 mpa. the logs I got of the 1.30 map were the same except I followed it from a fresh reset with IAM at 12. I think the 91 octane map will be safer than the stock map as I'd be worried about boost spike. I've only got 2600 Km's on this new engine and it's only seen WOT during ring seat and a couple logged passes. It should be good. Coated bearings with proper clearances reduce the risk of spinning a bearing. Guess my next oil ananlysis will tell how things are looking.
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Old 04-05-2006, 03:12 PM   #14
drees
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You might even want to use the CA Stg2 91 map as that is supposedly a bit safer than the normal Stg2 91 map... Regardless, I don't think the stock map will spike more than 15psi which is less than what you're seeing on the Stg2 map... but you won't know for sure until you try it.
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Old 04-06-2006, 10:40 AM   #15
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definately return. Cobb Stg 2 wasnt designed for your internals. Which are going to make a difference, even though I'm kinda surprised its not alot worse then it is.

I'd really like to see your HP/TQ #'s after the tune. Keep us updated
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Old 04-06-2006, 10:41 AM   #16
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definately retune. Cobb Stg 2 wasnt designed for your internals. Which are going to make a difference, even though I'm kinda surprised its not alot worse then it is.

I'd really like to see your HP/TQ #'s after the tune. Keep us updated
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Old 04-06-2006, 11:13 PM   #17
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Are you just using a 2002 USDM ECU with an EJ207 motor?
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Old 04-07-2006, 12:49 AM   #18
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So what do you guys recommend for a knock light? The knocklite with the 4 leds or the TurboXS one? Separate knock sensor or tap into stock one?
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