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Old 04-03-2006, 12:00 AM   #1
RainMaker
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Default Stock manifold/ported/ported + crosspipe/equal length header comparo (Ported added)

Hey all,

I have bought all the stuff for a dyno comparison (and road spool logging) of the following items:

1. stock manifold (a stage 2 06 STi)
2. IOTA (Gotpnp.com) ported manifolds and crosspipe
3. Crucial Racing ported and coated manifold and coated Injen crosspipe
4. Perrin's new Equal Length headers

Since Im in Portland, I figure it shouldnt be hard to sell what I dont choose.

GreggPDX and I are currently looking at footing the $300+ dyno bill for doing the comparo. We are objective and we dont sell anything related to cars. We have in town a mirriad of AWD dynos, and we'd like to use the Dynojet AWD.

We are wondering if anyone else would be so generous as to help us with the $300+ dyno bill. We will do all the wrenching and the logging, AFR, etc. We plan on letting the car learn in the new ignition advance, so we will be using 4+ dyno sessions during either the same day, or a few days apart.

We will publicize the results no matter what, and we arent going to withhold the info even if we dont get a single dollar. We will take suggestions on reducing variables and the data folks want collected. We have seen a serious deficit of objective data on ported manifolds and headers. We admit we dont have a non-equal length header, but neither of the two of us see ourselves interested in them, so I didnt buy any. If folks want to let us borrow a set of non-equal length headers and people here contribute more than $75 (one dyno session), we'll include them too. I'll pay the FedEx ground postage back to you (within the 48 states). If a vendor wants in, they get to send me a header and $75

If you are interested in helping out, I'll give credit to all those who paypal any amount over $5 to cnolke@excite.com with the results. Please include your screen-name with your payment if you want me to put it up. We are in no way in this for profit, so if the amount gets over the dyno bills, I'll return the money and still give credit (though note that the money was too much and we returned it).

Help us finally do a proper, transparent test of headers and ported manifolds!

Contributers:
1. Unibomber ($20)
2. JitenShakun ($5)
3. Senortighto ($20)
4. SilverSurfer04STi ($20)
5. modaddict ($10)
6. evodon84 ($10)
7. Verc ($10)
8. Crucial Racing ($20)
9. TylerTR ($10)
10. Freon ($20)
11. Tucker63 ($20)
12. EKW ($10)
13. KipA ($10)
14. WolfPlayer ($10)
15. JBlaine ($28.49)
16. Reid-o ($15)

thanks,
Chris
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Last edited by RainMaker; 04-21-2006 at 12:48 AM.
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Old 04-04-2006, 01:29 PM   #2
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I guess, folks, that I had expected alot more response. I hear an amazing amount of subjective discussion as to the power-benefits of headers (or the spool harm). It seems weekly that someone asks what headers are worth, having searched and found nothing but supposition.

Perhaps its all an excuse to argue over the internet.. rather than an honest curiosity. Either way, I'll put my money where my mouth is and do it.

Chris
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Old 04-04-2006, 04:05 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RainMaker
I guess, folks, that I had expected alot more response. I hear an amazing amount of subjective discussion as to the power-benefits of headers (or the spool harm). It seems weekly that someone asks what headers are worth, having searched and found nothing but supposition.

Perhaps its all an excuse to argue over the internet.. rather than an honest curiosity. Either way, I'll put my money where my mouth is and do it.

Chris
Thanks for stepping up to the plate and taking one for the team. I am looking forward to the results.

offset
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Old 04-04-2006, 06:48 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offset
Thanks for stepping up to the plate and taking one for the team. I am looking forward to the results.

offset
dont know why I find this reply humerous.

To the Original poster, sorry you couldn't get more interest. I'm planning on getting my stockers portmatched and see if any work can be done to clean them up. I wont have before/after results though.
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Old 04-04-2006, 07:17 PM   #5
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I'm interested in this too. This debate has raged forever...
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Old 04-04-2006, 08:22 PM   #6
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PM Rich at Mad Daddy. Rich is crazy enough to bite. Seriously...I think he would.

For my part, you have paypal.

<------layin' it down for Nabisco header test #2!
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Old 04-04-2006, 10:08 PM   #7
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We did the baseline today... here with atmospheric data:


The first set of manifolds go on tomorrow night with a dyno on Thursday after some learning.

Q: Why different days?
We dyno'd after we got there with all the learning the car could have done (several weeks). We then, for a last run, reset the computer (not shown above). The car lost a bit of power and torque (~10 tq/hp). This is significant enough to us that we'd like to let the car learn each of the manifoldsheaders through a day or two of pretty hard driving. We are using Cobb's standard stage 2 map. If we changed the manifolds out on the dyno for one big Manifoldapalooza, we would have to reset the computer each time, and we believe this will produce inaccurate results...

It begins! Next test is on Thursday with the IOTA (gotpnp.com) manifolds.

Last edited by RainMaker; 04-04-2006 at 10:16 PM.
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Old 04-04-2006, 10:18 PM   #8
RainMaker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unabomber
PM Rich at Mad Daddy. Rich is crazy enough to bite. Seriously...I think he would.

For my part, you have paypal.

<------layin' it down for Nabisco header test #2!
A big thanks to the Unabomber for starting the wave!

Last edited by RainMaker; 04-05-2006 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 04-04-2006, 10:49 PM   #9
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Some presidents on the way...

PS - I have Iota P&P manifold and cross pipe + Iota ported/gasket matched APS uppipe + Swain Tech coating on everything (manifold, crosspipe, uppipe) + wrapped/sprayed cast section of uppipe and crosspipe under the stock heat shield.
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Old 04-04-2006, 10:55 PM   #10
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Oh yeah, one more thing - is the MY06 manifold different than the MY04 and MY05? I thought it was...
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Old 04-05-2006, 12:49 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RainMaker
Q: Why different days?
We dyno'd after we got there with all the learning the car could have done (several weeks). We then, for a last run, reset the computer (not shown above). The car lost a bit of power and torque (~10 tq/hp). This is significant enough to us that we'd like to let the car learn each of the manifoldsheaders through a day or two of pretty hard driving. We are using Cobb's standard stage 2 map. If we changed the manifolds out on the dyno for one big Manifoldapalooza, we would have to reset the computer each time, and we believe this will produce inaccurate results...

It begins! Next test is on Thursday with the IOTA (gotpnp.com) manifolds.
While I understand why you're doing this, it really becomes a "six of one, half dozen of the other" type of scenario. Either way you look at it, you're not getting totally accurate data. I applaud your effort and am certainly looking forward to your results, but don't be surprised when the haters start criticizing your methodology...
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Old 04-05-2006, 01:28 AM   #12
RainMaker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSurfer04STi
Oh yeah, one more thing - is the MY06 manifold different than the MY04 and MY05? I thought it was...
The Forester gets a different manifold in MY06. All the STIs and WRXs are the same 04-06 though.

Chris
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Old 04-05-2006, 01:33 AM   #13
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Can't wait for the results

-J
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Old 04-05-2006, 03:08 AM   #14
RainMaker
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Added to the contributer's list in post #8. I'll add it to post #1 in the morning. Thanks everyone. Glad to see interest picking up.

Chris
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Old 04-05-2006, 03:43 AM   #15
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RainMaker...

you have some $$$
I have a gtspec knock off i wish you could try....its in Eastern WA, and currently im working in detroit. hope all is well....thanks for doing this.
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Old 04-05-2006, 07:34 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RainMaker
The Forester gets a different manifold in MY06. All the STIs and WRXs are the same 04-06 though.

Chris
Sweet. Test results will relate to my manifold too then...
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Old 04-05-2006, 08:42 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RainMaker
The Forester gets a different manifold in MY06. All the STIs and WRXs are the same 04-06 though.

Chris
Just an FYI, the 04 FXT manifold has smaller piping and a tighter bend after the collector than a 04 STI.

Maybe the 06 gets an 04 STI manifold?

Frank
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Old 04-05-2006, 01:55 PM   #18
RainMaker
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well, folks... We have enough contributions (more than $75 after paypal fees), so I'll call MadDad first and see if someone will loan us a set of headers. If Rich wont bite, then I'll try Gruppe-S.

Chris
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Old 04-05-2006, 04:23 PM   #19
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Yeah, I forgot about Gary at Gruppe-S. He might go for it too.
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Old 04-05-2006, 05:04 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RainMaker
well, folks... We have enough contributions (more than $75 after paypal fees), so I'll call MadDad first and see if someone will loan us a set of headers. If Rich wont bite, then I'll try Gruppe-S.

Chris
Our header is being updated and won't be available again until sometime late June, but I would certainly loan one out to a good controlled test environment. As most know, our header is the manifold and uppipe combo. The uppipe is rather unique in that it has a velocity stack to help maintain the low end, however it is also quite overbored at 48mm. There are also a number of china based copy cats showing up on ebay. So for serveral reasons we decided it was time to update the header to make it perform better and be more desirable while separating it from the clones and some of the quality versions offered by other reputable brands. We have a MadDad specific uppipe being done for it with a 45mm diameter and a new matching velocity stack. This shield yield notable gains in the low end and we'll be dyno testing ourself to ensure the 45mm velocity uppipe is the better overall performance solution. If the results are what we hope we may even do a separate 45mm velocity bolt-on uppipe for factory header. The header itself is being updated to included a pre-fitted EGT bung. Again, I don't think we'll see production units till the end of June and maybe even July, but I'm very optimistic that it will be worth the wait. We will have a couple of the new uppipe sometime mid May to being the dyno testing vs. the current 48mm and will post results once we have them.

Rich
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Old 04-06-2006, 12:19 PM   #21
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Driving around with the IOTA/gotpnp.com ported manifolds, we think it feels like it has some extra zing. We'll have some graphs for you this afternoon
Edit: We found a small exhaust leak, so we are going to fix things and we have rescheduled for Saturday.

Last edited by RainMaker; 04-06-2006 at 05:15 PM.
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Old 04-06-2006, 08:41 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RainMaker
Driving around with the IOTA/gotpnp.com ported manifolds, we think it feels like it has some extra zing. We'll have some graphs for you this afternoon
Edit: We found a small exhaust leak, so we are going to fix things and we have rescheduled for Saturday.
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Old 04-07-2006, 11:39 PM   #23
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Default Stock vs. Ported

***PLEASE NOTE: I accidently put up SAE corrected numbers here. Please see the graphs on Page 4 for Uncorrected data.***

Here is our stock vs. Ported (porting done by gotpnp.com or IOTA, $160 plus shipping)

Our "most representative runs" from each. 2 is stock, 6 is no changes other than the ported manifolds.



Now for the two most representative runs from each side. 2 and 3 are from stock, 5 and 6 are with the ported manifolds.



The stock TMIC doesnt seem to work really well with the ignition advance in the Cobb Stage 2 map from 5500 up. This was the case before and after the manifold swap. Either way, the turbo seems to have run out of poop at that point, and the manifold gains are nill. Though we have tried to get the dyno operator to start the dyno runs consistently, you can see that they arent exact. Because of that, while I *think* there might be 100 rpm or so better spool in the mix, I can't make much of a case for it.

If asked to sum up what the port job did for power, I'd estimate "5 to 15 lb-feet of torque from 3k to 5500."

Next up, the Crucial porting and coating with an Injen crossover pipe. (Tuesday).
As for right now, I have to call and make an insurance claim because some old lady creamed one corner of my car (not the car in these tests), and I'm really, REALLY irritated about it.

Last edited by RainMaker; 04-12-2006 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 04-07-2006, 11:48 PM   #24
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Any explanation for that irregularity at 5300?

All of these runs are done on the same map with no tuning, correct?
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Old 04-08-2006, 12:03 AM   #25
RainMaker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javier
Any explanation for that irregularity at 5300?

All of these runs are done on the same map with no tuning, correct?
The tune appears to be pulling timing at 5300+, though ONE out of seven runs it didnt.
All of these runs are on the standard Stage 2 Cobb map from their Access Port.
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