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Old 04-03-2006, 07:58 PM   #1
happasaiyan
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Default look to porsche...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Car and Driver
Standard 911s use a two-piece engine block split down the center line of the crankcase. On the GT3 and Turbo, it’s a four-piece unit with crankcase parts cast separately, which are then bolted to the cylinder blocks. This is a stiffer arrangement, which can handle more power, and was originally developed for racing applications.
not like our blocks are major hurdles when it comes to power...but its always nice to look to see what porsche is doing with their engines so we can gain some inspiration...
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Old 04-03-2006, 10:44 PM   #2
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I'm very interested in the new Porsche turbo with a variable vane turbine. Not a first on a gasoline engine, but the first with lots of power. It's Borg-Warner's version, I'm hoping Garrett will release something similar to the aftermarket soon.
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Old 04-03-2006, 11:04 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
I'm very interested in the new Porsche turbo with a variable vane turbine. Not a first on a gasoline engine, but the first with lots of power. It's Borg-Warner's version, I'm hoping Garrett will release something similar to the aftermarket soon.

And we think turbos are expensive now Actually, take a look at this article http://206.160.145.240/automag/featu...1-113-9-86.pdf which explains the VNT tech plus electric WG actuator and also the two stage turbo (e-turbo).

I don't know much about the Porsche engines except for an article that I've got from a recent Euro Car Mag on rebuilding one. That one however, looks like an oldschool VW motor with two additional cylinders. Anybody got a pick of the new motor?
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Old 04-04-2006, 12:09 AM   #4
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I haven't seen the engine yet. I'm sure we'll see it in some of the mags soon. I guess controlling boost is pretty tricky when you have those moving vanes. Yeah they'll be pricey, but they have been using them in diesels for years.
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Old 04-04-2006, 01:52 PM   #5
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honda is coming out with their VNT turbo soon in this year in the 240hp/260tq from a 2.3L 4cyl.
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Old 04-04-2006, 07:10 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happasaiyan
honda is coming out with their VNT turbo soon in this year in the 240hp/260tq from a 2.3L 4cyl.

Got a link? I bet Honda will gain some fame for this amongst enthusiasts.
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Old 04-05-2006, 03:40 PM   #7
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http://www.caranddriver.com/shortroa...1-gt3-997.html

CR of 12 and 17 psi of boost. How do they do that?
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Old 04-05-2006, 04:16 PM   #8
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Not exactly Honda, but close...

Quote:
RDX Prototype features an all-new 2.3-liter i-VTEC® four-cylinder turbocharged engine that generates 240 horsepower and 260 lb.-ft. of torque. This is the first application of forced induction technology in Acura history. The revolutionary i-VTEC Turbo technology uses a variable flow turbocharger, which is exclusive to the RDX Prototype, and provides dramatic performance benefits while maintaining excellent fuel efficiency.
http://www.importtuner.com/features/...ura_rdx_turbo/
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Old 04-05-2006, 05:20 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
http://www.caranddriver.com/shortroa...1-gt3-997.html

CR of 12 and 17 psi of boost. How do they do that?

^^^

I don't get it. The GT3 is NA.

"For the 2007 GT3, Porsche sticks with the same aluminum 3.6-liter flat-six but ups the power by 35 hp to 415 at 7600 rpm, making it the most powerful naturally aspirated 911 ever. "
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Old 04-05-2006, 05:38 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
http://www.caranddriver.com/shortroa...1-gt3-997.html

CR of 12 and 17 psi of boost. How do they do that?
That is the GT3 which is normally aspirated, not turbo.

[edit] someone beat me to it.
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Old 04-05-2006, 05:57 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
Not exactly Honda, but close...
the engine is made by honda...and its in an acura. i didnt mention the model (which will be an acura), i just mentioned the engine.

rumor has it, this engine will be bumped up in power (in the 280-300hp range) and will be put in the next tsx and/or a new coupe....coupled with their genious sh-awd system.

i cant wait.
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Old 04-05-2006, 05:59 PM   #12
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I heard JE recomends 9:1 for forced induction hondas, so it's not to hard to swallow.
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Old 04-05-2006, 06:38 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desert pirate
I heard JE recomends 9:1 for forced induction hondas, so it's not to hard to swallow.

What are you talking about? The reference above was for a 12:1 CR using FI via a turbo. 9:1 isn't even close.
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Old 04-05-2006, 07:29 PM   #14
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now is that 12:1 static compression? because dynamic compression is what really matters....
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Old 04-06-2006, 02:51 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
I'm very interested in the new Porsche turbo with a variable vane turbine. Not a first on a gasoline engine, but the first with lots of power. It's Borg-Warner's version, I'm hoping Garrett will release something similar to the aftermarket soon.
honneywell garrett have been using VNT on turbos for ages!
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Old 04-06-2006, 07:40 AM   #16
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Lots of people have been using VNT for ages. It's nothing new. Borg-Warner just decided to use expensive materials for them, apparently. The previous problems had to do with vanes which could not withstand high EGT. Materials have advanced since then.

12:1 compression and 17 psi of boost means little. Not only is static compression misleading, but "boost pressure" is even more misleading.

If you want to compare, check air-mass/combustion and BMEP. Given the 260 lb-ft of torque from a 2.3L, I gurantee that BMEP is quite low. Saab have been running more than 260 lb-ft from 2.3L for quite a while. The static compression of those Saab engines may only be 9.3-9.5:1 ... but they are not variable valve timing engines.

What Honda has done is alter the valve timing so that, when the engine is under boost, the engine "acts" like it has about 9:1 compression instead of 12:1. (Like someone mentioned about dynamic compression being the one that matters.) But when the vtec is in "cruise" mode, it "acts" like it has the full 12:1 comression ... thus allowing good gas mileage.

Pretty simple really. I figured they'd do this a few years ago. Nice to see they are putting it into use.
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Old 04-06-2006, 12:20 PM   #17
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Either way, 12:1 CR (static) is really high for an FI engine. I guess that's a testament of the technology and R&D that went into it.
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Old 04-06-2006, 01:23 PM   #18
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Well the boost number came from here: http://www.automobilemag.com/auto_sh...che_911_turbo/

The Car and Driver article IS talking about a NA engine. So, I don't know what the CR of the new Turbo is. I was just doing a quick read after I saw this thread.

I've never seen a FI car with a 12:1 CR. Saab had that variable compression engine that might have gotten close.
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Old 04-06-2006, 02:17 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
The Car and Driver article IS talking about a NA engine. So, I don't know what the CR of the new Turbo is. I was just doing a quick read after I saw this thread.

I've never seen a FI car with a 12:1 CR. Saab had that variable compression engine that might have gotten close.
That makes better sense then. I also read about the Saab variable CR engine. I don't think it ever made it to production. The idea is awesome though, just not sure if the design is would last a long time??
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Old 04-06-2006, 02:28 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaabTuner
Lots of people have been using VNT for ages. It's nothing new. Borg-Warner just decided to use expensive materials for them, apparently. The previous problems had to do with vanes which could not withstand high EGT. Materials have advanced since then.

12:1 compression and 17 psi of boost means little. Not only is static compression misleading, but "boost pressure" is even more misleading.

If you want to compare, check air-mass/combustion and BMEP. Given the 260 lb-ft of torque from a 2.3L, I gurantee that BMEP is quite low. Saab have been running more than 260 lb-ft from 2.3L for quite a while. The static compression of those Saab engines may only be 9.3-9.5:1 ... but they are not variable valve timing engines.

What Honda has done is alter the valve timing so that, when the engine is under boost, the engine "acts" like it has about 9:1 compression instead of 12:1. (Like someone mentioned about dynamic compression being the one that matters.) But when the vtec is in "cruise" mode, it "acts" like it has the full 12:1 comression ... thus allowing good gas mileage.

Pretty simple really. I figured they'd do this a few years ago. Nice to see they are putting it into use.

That's sick. I didn't know this existed. I'm sure it makes for a smoother power band, and less noticeable lag.
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Old 04-06-2006, 11:15 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
I've never seen a FI car with a 12:1 CR. Saab had that variable compression engine that might have gotten close.
The Saab variable compression engine went as high as 14:1 and as low as 8:1. Pretty freaking sick, but the complexity is what held it back. Who wants to drive a car with an experimental and unproven engine? Probably less than 1% of Saab's market base.

It appears that they are talking about the N/A engine, though, after reading that article.

A 12:1 FI engine is possible with vtec, but under boost it would be extremely inefficient. It's probably for the best that they not do it. That said, it would still be pretty freaking sick if they did.
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Old 04-07-2006, 01:44 PM   #22
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Yeah the problem with lowering the dynamic compression (VTEC, valve overlap) on a FI car is you just blow your air and fuel out the exhaust valve becuase of the boost.

I wonder why a four piece block is stiffer. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
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Old 04-07-2006, 02:33 PM   #23
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Quote:
Yeah the problem with lowering the dynamic compression (VTEC, valve overlap) on a FI car is you just blow your air and fuel out the exhaust valve becuase of the boost.
Hmmm. I'm putting together a Honda H22 block right now and the cams that we're probably going to use are the Crower turbo grind cams. The specs look almost identical to the stock cams but the duration looks shorter on the Crower exhaust cam vs the stock one. IIRC, the lift on both the intake and exhaust is just marginally higher on the Crowers. It doesn't really seem like that much of a difference over stock specs though.

Quote:
I wonder why a four piece block is stiffer. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
So what are the four pieces? The older engines used a basic block, finned cylinders, and heads. Seems like the less parts the better?

Last edited by Division By Zero; 04-07-2006 at 02:42 PM.
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Old 04-07-2006, 05:36 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
Yeah the problem with lowering the dynamic compression (VTEC, valve overlap) on a FI car is you just blow your air and fuel out the exhaust valve becuase of the boost.
You can design the two cam profiles to be whatever you want with VTEC. Presumably, the high-boost camshaft would be extremely low valve overlap. IE: late IVO and late IVC, which would give little/no overlap, and very low dynamic compression.

The real problem is pumping losses. You have all that boost trying to push the air into the engine only for the piston to push it back out before the intake valve closes. All that boost pressure takes a lot of exhaust pressure to generate, thus raising your EGT and increasing cyllinder temperatures.
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Old 04-08-2006, 01:18 AM   #25
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you guys are ignoring one part of the 12:1 and boosted issue. The engine is probably a direct injection engine. Take a look at what Audi is doing with their DI engines.....can't wait for Subaru to develop the technology
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