272's

djviper · 04-06-2006, 06:38 AM

just a quickie, just how bad a tick over do 272 duration cams give? as ive herd mixed answers and if they wont tick over il go for summit like a 264

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Element Tuning · 04-07-2006, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djviper

just a quickie, just how bad a tick over do 272 duration cams give? as ive herd mixed answers and if they wont tick over il go for summit like a 264

It’s so funny how different the English language can be on another continent.

I have a set of 272 camshafts but can you define what “tick over” means and I’ll try to offer some advice.

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com

jigga · 04-07-2006, 08:06 PM

i think he is referring to the idle characteristics of an engine with such cams installed...

djviper · 04-11-2006, 09:39 AM

will the 272's idle without me having to constantle blip the throttle to stop it stalling
i find so many little difference too phil, it can be rather confusing!

jigga · 04-11-2006, 11:16 AM

can you not simply increase the idle speed with your ecu to prevent the car from wanting to stall out??

djviper · 04-11-2006, 11:17 AM

you can but id rather not sit ideling at 2 k ;-)

Element Tuning · 04-12-2006, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djviper

will the 272's idle without me having to constantle blip the throttle to stop it stalling
i find so many little difference too phil, it can be rather confusing!

So far so good with the 272 cams I have. We installed Kelford AVCS 272, 10.26 mm lift on both the intake and exhaust side into a 2.5 built block with stock STI heads. Vacuum at idle is poor at only 15 in/hg as compared to stock cams at 20 in/hg.

Since we run the Element Hydra EMS I have lots of control over fueling, timing, ISC settings, etc and once adjusted to compensate for the low vacuum the car idles completely steady at 1000 rpm. I can hear a little "lope" but it doesn't move the needle at all.

Power above 5K rpm is of another world!

With everything else constant, at 20 psi my fuel map leaned out from about 11.8 AFR to 13.5 AFR. WTH, I thought, my WB must be bad. Everything checked out, egts, etc all were in line so I just added fuel into the map to restore my previous AFR.

I predict this is car is going to have the highest pump gas power number anyone has seen here on Nasioc. The fuel map does not lie and I have already tuned a car to 490 whp on pump gas so I know what I'm looking at!

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com

djviper · 04-12-2006, 12:22 PM

could you let me know how you get on with them please phil as i was looking at 272's with a 10.3 mm lift on both!, i probably wont be buying them for a month or so

good luck
thanks
jeff

LatentWagen · 04-12-2006, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

So far so good with the 272 cams I have. We installed Kelford AVCS 272, 10.26 mm lift on both the intake and exhaust side into a 2.5 built block with stock STI heads. Vacuum at idle is poor at only 15 in/hg as compared to stock cams at 20 in/hg.

Since we run the Element Hydra EMS I have lots of control over fueling, timing, ISC settings, etc and once adjusted to compensate for the low vacuum the car idles completely steady at 1000 rpm. I can hear a little "lope" but it doesn't move the needle at all.

Power above 5K rpm is of another world!

With everything else constant, at 20 psi my fuel map leaned out from about 11.8 AFR to 13.5 AFR. WTH, I thought, my WB must be bad. Everything checked out, egts, etc all were in line so I just added fuel into the map to restore my previous AFR.

I predict this is car is going to have the highest pump gas power number anyone has seen here on Nasioc. The fuel map does not lie and I have already tuned a car to 490 whp on pump gas so I know what I'm looking at!

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com

ill be glad to see some dyno results!! its about time we had more people running cams - every other camp does it... granted the install is a *little* harder on our cars.
what turbo are you running with that setup? and what's your redline?

9vapors · 04-12-2006, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midnite_wrex

ill be glad to see some dyno results!! its about time we had more people running cams - every other camp does it... granted the install is a *little* harder on our cars.
what turbo are you running with that setup? and what's your redline?

I am about to put my Crower Stg 3's in my new engine. They are 272's, I'll post how they feel.

djviper · 04-12-2006, 12:49 PM

oo please do!
i was thinking of using an 8k redline and i was going to use a gt30 hybrid i think (tempted by the ~76 or the ~82 but not sure yet

Element Tuning · 04-12-2006, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midnite_wrex

ill be glad to see some dyno results!! its about time we had more people running cams - every other camp does it... granted the install is a *little* harder on our cars.
what turbo are you running with that setup? and what's your redline?

I'll post some numbers as soon as I can. I should have an Aeromotive pump and surge tank setup complete in the next few days. As soon as I tried to go over 22 psi my fuel pressure dropped like a ton of bricks

Even my 1000cc injectors couldn't prevent the AFR from leaning way out as the injectors were at 100% duty cycle.

I'm testing the Element GT75 turbocharger which will bolt up to our GT65 kit. It's rated at 75 lbs but it still hits 20 psi by about 4600 rpm. These cams definitely added some turbo lag but without them this turbocharger is held way back.

I'm currently running in the 7500 to 7800 rpm range.

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com

bunot · 04-12-2006, 02:16 PM

i have jun 272s. i just went thru the 1st phase of my motor's break-in period. the idle was rough at the beginning at 15.8:1 AFRs. i since dumped some fuel in there and got it down to 15.0:1. i also increased my idle to 950 RPMs. which i feel isn't too bad.

before that, the car would frequently stall when i hit the brakes and the RPMs drop below 600. now, any stalling is very rare, and i can still live with the car being a daily driver. i might raise the idle to 1K RPMs once i get a reflash.

Element Tuning · 04-13-2006, 01:16 PM

I really shouldn’t gloss over how much additional tuning was required for these cams to work well. The car would start but didn’t stay running when cold and the idle quality was poor until I richened up the AFR. Adding fuel to the “cranking and post start enrichment” solved the cold start issues. I also had to take advantage of some new features available on the 2.17 and newer Hydra software versions. They have a specific AC compensation map to bump rpm by 250 and a new “max AC integrator” map that allows finer control over the ISC valve when the AC is utilized. This along with some fuel tweaking delivered perfect again idle control as the AC cycled on an off. I then had a wicked hesitation around 2800 rpm and all I can chalk this up to would be a significant VE change. I suspect poor intake velocity under 2500 rpm and above is where it cleans out. To resolve this, much AVCS tuning was required along with rescaling the Hydra fuel map for more resolution in the 2500-3000 rpm range. Running richer AFRs in certain low load and rpm areas and a ton of fuel needed to be added above 5K rpm.

If you don’t have a good stand-alone these cams may not be the best choice. Would I do it again? Yes, they are well worth it! So if anyone with a Element Hydra needs a base map, I’ve done the hard work for you.

Thanks,
Phil
http://www.elementtuning.com

west_minist · 04-13-2006, 04:01 PM

I think that hesitation seems to be normal for all AVCS models. I even have it in the non-turbo 2000 model I have.

Element Tuning · 04-14-2006, 11:46 AM

While it may occur on many cars it's usually easy to tune out with proper mapping. I have only noticed this on a couple of cars with the Hydra so it's not normal to feel this on Hydra equiped vehicles. I never had this problem on my car until I swapped the camshafts. The good news is that it's smooth again

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com

SOOBE · 04-14-2006, 08:20 PM

Im running 272's with around 10.5mm lift on a 2.5L. Idle had to be increased to 1000rpm to get it stable, allthough i have no idle motor anymore which doesnt help. Never had any stalling problems.Torque till 3500rpm isnt great but i rarely go below 3000 anyway so it isnt really an issue. The trade off is that they really come alive up top, 10.9 at 132mph on pump fuel with 24 psi from a relativly small GT3040 proves it.

Theres a good discussion on camshafts happening on supra forums, interesting read to say the least http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...9&page=1&pp=25

04-06-2006, 06:38 AM	#1
djviper Scooby Specialist Member#: 107276 Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: north london England Vehicle: 99 V.R.Special WRC blue	272's just a quickie, just how bad a tick over do 272 duration cams give? as ive herd mixed answers and if they wont tick over il go for summit like a 264 * Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

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04-07-2006, 08:06 PM	#3
jigga Scooby Guru Member#: 9960 Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: in bed... Vehicle: 2002 Impreza WRX WRBlue Perl	i think he is referring to the idle characteristics of an engine with such cams installed...

04-11-2006, 09:39 AM	#4
djviper Scooby Specialist Member#: 107276 Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: north london England Vehicle: 99 V.R.Special WRC blue	will the 272's idle without me having to constantle blip the throttle to stop it stalling i find so many little difference too phil, it can be rather confusing!

04-11-2006, 11:16 AM	#5
jigga Scooby Guru Member#: 9960 Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: in bed... Vehicle: 2002 Impreza WRX WRBlue Perl	can you not simply increase the idle speed with your ecu to prevent the car from wanting to stall out??

04-11-2006, 11:17 AM	#6
djviper Scooby Specialist Member#: 107276 Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: north london England Vehicle: 99 V.R.Special WRC blue	you can but id rather not sit ideling at 2 k ;-)

04-12-2006, 12:22 PM	#8
djviper Scooby Specialist Member#: 107276 Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: north london England Vehicle: 99 V.R.Special WRC blue	could you let me know how you get on with them please phil as i was looking at 272's with a 10.3 mm lift on both!, i probably wont be buying them for a month or so good luck thanks jeff

04-12-2006, 12:49 PM	#11
djviper Scooby Specialist Member#: 107276 Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: north london England Vehicle: 99 V.R.Special WRC blue	oo please do! i was thinking of using an 8k redline and i was going to use a gt30 hybrid i think (tempted by the ~76 or the ~82 but not sure yet

04-12-2006, 02:16 PM	#13
bunot Scooby Specialist Member#: 21641 Join Date: Jul 2002 Chapter/Region: International Vehicle: 4EAT 12.185@110.34 Now a 6MT! beyatch!	i have jun 272s. i just went thru the 1st phase of my motor's break-in period. the idle was rough at the beginning at 15.8:1 AFRs. i since dumped some fuel in there and got it down to 15.0:1. i also increased my idle to 950 RPMs. which i feel isn't too bad. before that, the car would frequently stall when i hit the brakes and the RPMs drop below 600. now, any stalling is very rare, and i can still live with the car being a daily driver. i might raise the idle to 1K RPMs once i get a reflash.

04-13-2006, 01:16 PM	#14
Element Tuning NASIOC Vendor Member#: 54918 Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: 673 WHP Element ProComp Engine	I really shouldn’t gloss over how much additional tuning was required for these cams to work well. The car would start but didn’t stay running when cold and the idle quality was poor until I richened up the AFR. Adding fuel to the “cranking and post start enrichment” solved the cold start issues. I also had to take advantage of some new features available on the 2.17 and newer Hydra software versions. They have a specific AC compensation map to bump rpm by 250 and a new “max AC integrator” map that allows finer control over the ISC valve when the AC is utilized. This along with some fuel tweaking delivered perfect again idle control as the AC cycled on an off. I then had a wicked hesitation around 2800 rpm and all I can chalk this up to would be a significant VE change. I suspect poor intake velocity under 2500 rpm and above is where it cleans out. To resolve this, much AVCS tuning was required along with rescaling the Hydra fuel map for more resolution in the 2500-3000 rpm range. Running richer AFRs in certain low load and rpm areas and a ton of fuel needed to be added above 5K rpm. If you don’t have a good stand-alone these cams may not be the best choice. Would I do it again? Yes, they are well worth it! So if anyone with a Element Hydra needs a base map, I’ve done the hard work for you. Thanks, Phil http://www.elementtuning.com

04-13-2006, 04:01 PM	#15
west_minist Scooby Specialist Member#: 53451 Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Caribbean Vehicle: 2000 JDM Impreza SRX w/ AVCS Silver	I think that hesitation seems to be normal for all AVCS models. I even have it in the non-turbo 2000 model I have.

04-14-2006, 11:46 AM	#16
Element Tuning NASIOC Vendor Member#: 54918 Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: 673 WHP Element ProComp Engine	While it may occur on many cars it's usually easy to tune out with proper mapping. I have only noticed this on a couple of cars with the Hydra so it's not normal to feel this on Hydra equiped vehicles. I never had this problem on my car until I swapped the camshafts. The good news is that it's smooth again Thanks, Phil www.elementtuning.com

04-14-2006, 08:20 PM	#17
SOOBE Scooby Newbie Member#: 78977 Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Down Under	Im running 272's with around 10.5mm lift on a 2.5L. Idle had to be increased to 1000rpm to get it stable, allthough i have no idle motor anymore which doesnt help. Never had any stalling problems.Torque till 3500rpm isnt great but i rarely go below 3000 anyway so it isnt really an issue. The trade off is that they really come alive up top, 10.9 at 132mph on pump fuel with 24 psi from a relativly small GT3040 proves it. Theres a good discussion on camshafts happening on supra forums, interesting read to say the least http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...9&page=1&pp=25