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Old 04-06-2006, 01:48 PM   #1
stevenh
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Default Warning to STi guys on cobb's stage 2 HWG duty maps.

I decided to try this map out tonight because my boost was only reading 17psi momentarily and dropping straight off after that. I ran the map for about 10 minutes and did about 10 pulls on the highway and my knocklite was going wild. I have only seen mild knock (amber light) a handful of times on the standard stage 2 map (93 octane), but the HWG map was lighting up red on nearly every other pull. Anyone that is running this map with out a warning system for knock may want to look into investing in one.
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Old 04-06-2006, 02:21 PM   #2
AaronWRX
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yet another good example of why cobb/ecutek users should be running knocklite instead of just telling everbody that utecs suck because they knock and AP's rule because they never knock.
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Old 04-06-2006, 02:34 PM   #3
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I am not nocking, but I am running 95 octane on that map. I wa nocking like hell on cobbs 91 stage 2.
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Old 04-06-2006, 06:05 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronWRX
yet another good example of why cobb/ecutek users should be running knocklite instead of just telling everbody that utecs suck because they knock and AP's rule because they never knock.
+1..5
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Old 04-06-2006, 06:23 PM   #5
stevenh
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Yup, I don't see how Cobb has such a great reputation when they're releasing maps that are destroying motors...
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Old 04-06-2006, 06:50 PM   #6
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hm.. and all this time i though cobb's maps were on the safer side
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Old 04-06-2006, 06:56 PM   #7
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BAH... i've had both utec and ap, both professionally tuned and basemapped, show me one stg2 cobb car on a basemap that blew up with a proper intake used

even if they did suck at the maps, the stock ecu is a lot better about adjusting for ping than a craptec :/
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Old 04-06-2006, 07:00 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenh
Yup, I don't see how Cobb has such a great reputation when they're releasing maps that are destroying motors...
http://www.cobbtuning.com/wrx/access...2093%20oct.txt

"Additional Notes:
Designed specifically for users unable to reach the target boost pressures with
the standard Stage2 mapping. If boost spiking occurs, you will want to revert
back to the standard map. The caution "Use at your own risk" is for those that
are trying to simply push as much boost into the motor as possible regardless of
what is actually optimal for the vehicle. If this map causes overboosting and
you continue to use it, you must accept the risk of engine damage."

The HWG is for cars that CANNOT reach full boost. There is NEVER any reason to use them on a car that actually reaces 17 PSI. EVER.

If you think this is how Cobb designs their maps, then you are a knuckle-dragging IDIOT. Period.




Don't be a moron, and use the standard Stage 2 map.
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Old 04-06-2006, 07:13 PM   #9
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could someone link me to one of these knocklite warning systems along with some background info about how it works and what is involved in a install...would appreciate it..Thanx.
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Old 04-06-2006, 07:15 PM   #10
stevenh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overdose
BAH... i've had both utec and ap, both professionally tuned and basemapped, show me one stg2 cobb car on a basemap that blew up with a proper intake used

even if they did suck at the maps, the stock ecu is a lot better about adjusting for ping than a craptec :/
One motor that blew while using the proper intake on Cobb stage 2? Ok, mine threw a rod through the block and shattered two pistons while on the track running cobb stage 2. If both are professionally tuned its a different issue, but this off the shelf mapped knocked like crazy when I ran it last night.
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Old 04-06-2006, 07:15 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronWRX
yet another good example of why cobb/ecutek users should be running knocklite instead of just telling everbody that utecs suck because they knock and AP's rule because they never knock.
You are wrong...

The OP's situation is just yet another reason not to play around with cookie cutter OTS maps.... I liken it to having unprotected sex...

Fact is that a good chunk of those who use UTEC's have little clue as to what they are REALLY doing. They like the idea of being able to control everything from their laptop compuer, but the reality of the situation is that they have very little tuning experience to know the subtlties of tuning, how far to push, and where not to push. The problem is not the utec itself, but users who don't have the capability to use it effectively.... there .. i said it...

The stock ecu has the ability to pull a certain amount of timing from a map that is detonating, or go into a high det map. But if even these maps are no good either, you have a problem... Again, if the ecu was actually custom tuned for the car and its setup, this would not be a problem at all.

This brings me to knock detection...

It is just such a black art that what one sensor considers knock, another sensor considers as engine noise. I am sure if you wired up a knocklink and turboXS' knocklight, and tapped into the stock knock sensor, what one sensor might consider to be a minor occurence of knock will be considered more severe by the next device, while another will consider it to be background noise... so which knock sensor is correct?

What cobb is doing is not much different to what was happening back in the UNICHIP days.. when people were blowing engines left center and right.... Only difference is that now, the ecu has some control to alter the map if it is slightly off... but this ability won't control for instances where the map is WAY off for the car and gas that the map is running on.
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Old 04-06-2006, 07:16 PM   #12
stevenh
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sluflyer06
could someone link me to one of these knocklite warning systems along with some background info about how it works and what is involved in a install...would appreciate it..Thanx.
Its made by turboxs, check their website. There is a writeup on them over at Iwsti.com.
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Old 04-06-2006, 07:18 PM   #13
WR^2X
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sluflyer06
could someone link me to one of these knocklite warning systems along with some background info about how it works and what is involved in a install...would appreciate it..Thanx.
Here you go.
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Old 04-06-2006, 07:22 PM   #14
stevenh
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vashed
http://www.cobbtuning.com/wrx/access...2093%20oct.txt

"Additional Notes:
Designed specifically for users unable to reach the target boost pressures with
the standard Stage2 mapping. If boost spiking occurs, you will want to revert
back to the standard map. The caution "Use at your own risk" is for those that
are trying to simply push as much boost into the motor as possible regardless of
what is actually optimal for the vehicle. If this map causes overboosting and
you continue to use it, you must accept the risk of engine damage."

The HWG is for cars that CANNOT reach full boost. There is NEVER any reason to use them on a car that actually reaces 17 PSI. EVER.

If you think this is how Cobb designs their maps, then you are a knuckle-dragging IDIOT. Period.




Don't be a moron, and use the standard Stage 2 map.
I'm aware of this... My car would hit 17psi so briefly that I wouldn't really say it was running 17psi of boost. When running the HWG map it held 17psi for a bit longer, but never reached the 18s. Trust me, I am back on the normal map.

I'm simply putting this out there for people who are running the HWG map with no way of detecting knock.

Also, for the quote about the knock sensors picking up engine noise. The knocklite actually goes through a setup procedure where it records engine noise at three different RPM's and filters out the engine noise when detecting knock. Its not perfect, but I think its a better method than doing it without filtering engine noise.
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Old 04-06-2006, 10:20 PM   #15
AaronWRX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jigga
You are wrong...

The OP's situation is just yet another reason not to play around with cookie cutter OTS maps.... I liken it to having unprotected sex...

Fact is that a good chunk of those who use UTEC's have little clue as to what they are REALLY doing. They like the idea of being able to control everything from their laptop compuer, but the reality of the situation is that they have very little tuning experience to know the subtlties of tuning, how far to push, and where not to push. The problem is not the utec itself, but users who don't have the capability to use it effectively.... there .. i said it...

The stock ecu has the ability to pull a certain amount of timing from a map that is detonating, or go into a high det map. But if even these maps are no good either, you have a problem... Again, if the ecu was actually custom tuned for the car and its setup, this would not be a problem at all.

This brings me to knock detection...

It is just such a black art that what one sensor considers knock, another sensor considers as engine noise. I am sure if you wired up a knocklink and turboXS' knocklight, and tapped into the stock knock sensor, what one sensor might consider to be a minor occurence of knock will be considered more severe by the next device, while another will consider it to be background noise... so which knock sensor is correct?

What cobb is doing is not much different to what was happening back in the UNICHIP days.. when people were blowing engines left center and right.... Only difference is that now, the ecu has some control to alter the map if it is slightly off... but this ability won't control for instances where the map is WAY off for the car and gas that the map is running on.

im very proud of you, that's very nice, but it has nothing to do with the point I clearly made. I'm sure if you take the time carefuly re-read my post you will be more then ready to retract your first sentance.
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Old 04-06-2006, 10:35 PM   #16
Driving_Miss_Daisy
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I could not hit 17psi, for the life of me, with the 93 stage 2 map. I am running it and still can barrley hit 17psi.
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Old 04-06-2006, 10:36 PM   #17
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Another reason I'm running the PDX maps for the mean time.

However, never had a problem with the Cobb maps, didn't have a knocklight though, so who knows.
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Old 04-07-2006, 12:30 AM   #18
jigga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronWRX
im very proud of you, that's very nice, but it has nothing to do with the point I clearly made. I'm sure if you take the time carefuly re-read my post you will be more then ready to retract your first sentance.

Thanks for being proud of me

I still stand by the statement though....Fact of the matter is that the map he was using is yet another generic map that was not custom-tuned for his particular car.... The results are not surprising...

But you are partly right though... Perhaps users of COBB's software should be using alternative measures to see just how far off the maps are or are not for their particular cars...

Most ecutek cars on the other hand are actually custom tuned for the car's particular makeup and may not make it AS necessary as it may be with those running Cobb's maps. The ecu listens to the same knock sensor that that utec does afterall, it however will make corresponding long-term changes to the ecu's map to sidestep the danger point on the map where knock consistently occurs instead of simply flashing the cel and pulling timing after the fact and then doing the same thing again at the same point in the power band again the next time you visit it..

If you look at the way the stock ecu works, it will try to run as much timing as allowed by the tuner until the onset of detonation, at which point it pulls back... The extent that it can pull back though is down to the tuner...i.e. cobb...Fact of the matter is that in the OP's situation, the map was way off... again, not surprising... since it isn't a custom tune for the car.

Oh, and all engines experience minute levels of detonation all the time... it is just the harmful levels that are destructive to engines that these devices listen for really....

Again, I'm definitely not saying that utec's themselves suck.... A lot of the people that try to go it all themselves without previous tuning experience and feel that professional tuning is not needed do though...and it shows...I always stress a professional dyno tune for a setup no matter whether it is with a utec, ecutek, protune, or standalone, since there is no replacement for the tuner's knowlege and experience in tuning different setups. They are the true key to reliability, and not so much what ecu solution is being run.

Another way to think about it is whether you want some joe blow who read an anatomy text book for the first time a couple of days before to be operating on your loved one, as opposed to a licenced and trained surgeon....
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Old 04-07-2006, 08:03 AM   #19
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Old 04-07-2006, 10:51 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WR^2X
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