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Old 04-26-2000, 06:09 AM   #1
mccasksl
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Post KYB/AGX - Eibach Springs (kinda long)

...finished installing / sorting KYB/AGX (Impreza 006,007,010,011)w/ Eibach springs (Legacy 7706.140)on my '97 Legacy GT. Great stuff!!! ...but only after a bit of sorting! The Impreza struts do fit (thanks subie gal or ?), but the fully extended / compressed / stroke is slightly different than stock ie. results in slightly (<0.5 inch)less suspension travel, no problem yet. In my previous posts I complained it was way too low, hitting the front bump stops / rubbing the front & rear tires. I ruined the front tires (stock wheels & tires)in less than 6000 miles. Seams when lowered w/ Eibachs, almost slammed w/ front static toe at 0, 1.0 deg negative camber, under heavy braking it goes way toe out, not good!(note: may be cured w/ SPD Tuning suspension bushings?) the front had almost no roll and the suspension didn't really "work" It felt like it was on rails but little feedback before the front let lose in very bad understeer. The negative camber, low ride height and even static 0 toe wore the inside edge of the tires out, no cord yet but almost. After some experimentation final configuration is about one finger clearance between the top of the tire and body arch (about 25.4 inches ground to bottom of arch - painted body, 13.3 inches from axle CL to bottom of body arch - painted body), front & back. Front: 0 toe, 0.6 deg negative camber Rear: 0.2 deg toe in (for straight line tracking /stability), 1.5 deg negative camber (not really adjustable but I do want to get / try some cam bolts), and KYB / AGX set 2/4 front/rear. To get the ride height raised I had to install a lower rubber spring seat cushion (under the front springs same as rear stock) this helped w/ the spring seating / noise as the Eibach spring is lose w/ the strut fully extended. The rear I installed clear poly tubing (1/2-inch ID) over the top 3 spring turns(the progressive part which bottoms out under load) similar to the Impreza springs as from the Eibach. Yes getting the tubing on the spring is a real bitch, use silicone spray, soap etc. then just slit it as I've seen many others do. And yes I know a bit of front toe out really helps the "turn in" ability for auto-X etc. but this also makes it twitchy in the corners w/ any bumps / undulations and this is my daily driver, plus I need my tires to last a bit. Yes I'm using the 18mm rear bar from the Outback.

Anyhow the car is fantastic now. perfect feedback and very forgiving of my mistakes. A very good trade off between the slammed / raked / NASCAR look (very cool though)and the awful from factory high stilt like stance that rolls like a boat in rough water.

As for alignment, I can't tell you how much a good alignment does. They may be tired of seeing me at NTB but remember the alignment is warranteed (ie. free adjustments)for 6 months or 6000 miles, remarkable how many different setups I can try in that time. I've been buying tires / working w/ NTB / Tire America for almost 20 years and am very pleased. Sure some service writers / mechanics have bad days / are a-holes but work with them, tell em exactly what you want and don't settle for "in spec", that could be +0.2 to -0.6 deg camber. Find a good alignment mechanic, make an appointment when they're not busy and tip 'em, yes that's right I give the guy $10 - $20 when he does a great job, stand there and watch him, work w/ him to get it right. Remember you pay the $59.99 once up front and then adjustments are practically free for 6 months / 6000 miles. No I don't work for NTB or Hunter the alignment equip. manufact.

But I do enjoy driving the subie. Now I'm going to sort out my Impreza which needs it badly. Cheers!!!
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Old 04-26-2000, 06:14 AM   #2
mccasksl
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...wooops forgot... yes I know the stock Bridgstone tires are awful, the suspension improvements dramatically underscore this, the tires turn under and try to come off the rim even when inflated up to 40 psi for some serious road work. I'll replace them when they wear out.
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Old 04-26-2000, 06:57 AM   #3
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Ummmmm great article, confused a little, in non technical terms, what needs to be done for the AGX/eibach setup to run good with no tire wear and quirks. Thanks ahead of time.
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Old 04-26-2000, 02:30 PM   #4
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great article, have a couple o questions:
1) do you have pictures of the Eibach springs? I have the prodrive/eibach springs and was wondering how they differ.
2) on the tubing on the rear springs, was that to increase height or reduce noise? Whiteline has plastic coil wrap for springs to reduce noise -- same stuff as electrical coil wrap I can get down at Fry's. looks to be much easier to put on than tubing. BTW the prodrive/eibach springs already have tubing on the progressive coils.
3) what were the (approximate) ride height changes from stock on first try and final?
[edit: looks like you got a 1.8"F, 1.2"R drop if you have a sedan]

have to agree it does take some sorting, on my prodrive springs the front end was great out of the box but the rear was hitting the stops -- backed off to stock springs on the AGX -- but I'll take another stab at it with your findings.

I'm looking at powerflex bushings, I get the feeling most of the impreza bushings I'm thinking of replacing will fit the GT.

[This message has been edited by BG5 (edited April 26, 2000).]
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Old 04-26-2000, 03:16 PM   #5
mccasksl
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...the Impreza KYB/AGX (7xx006,007,010,011)w/ the Legacy Eibach springs (7706.140) as fitted on my '97 Leg. GT sits way too low... (1.5+ inches lower than stock) hits the front bump stops and tires rubbing all round. The front was raised (and noise reduced as an added benefit) by putting in a lower front spring rubber seat / cushion, and the rear was raised by adding the clear plastic tubing on the progressive spring turns (tighter spaced ones)yes the plastic strip / wrap would do the same ie. space out the tighly wound turns / coils so the ride height is increased, and be easier to install. The tubing is the same as delivered directly from Eibach on the Impreza springs (7705.140)don't know why they didn't do the same on the Legacy springs. I don't have my exact numbers but my current set up still lowered the car about 1 inch all round and I don't hit the bump stops (stock) or rub tires. The KYB/AGX instructions do mention cutting / reducing the bumpstops by up to 50% but I have not tried that besides my tires were rubbing under hard cornering too.
too long again sorry!!!

Hope that helps...Cheers!!!
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Old 04-26-2000, 03:24 PM   #6
mccasksl
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...sorry don't know the difference between the Prodrive/Eibach springs and the Eibach springs for the Legacy. I don't have any pictures but the number 7706.140XXX is stamped on each spring. I've tried w/o success for some time to get data sheets on the springs for Legacy / Impreza etc.(got nothing from SPD, Summit, Eibach USA and Eibach Germany) after they sell them to you / have your money they don't give a hoot. Eibach Germany told me they cannot give that information out (proprietary???) ...bet Prodrive doesn't accept that answer...
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Old 04-26-2000, 04:21 PM   #7
Force[FED]
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Glad I went with the H&R's! I am using the factory struts with the H&R's, and I cut the bumpstops about .5" each. My 99 2.5GT rides great, even with the wider 17" wheels/tires. I get some slight rubbing on the rear tires under load, but very little. Glad I didn't go with the Eibachs!

Kev
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Old 04-26-2000, 04:47 PM   #8
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they sound different -- the prodrive springs are linear in the front, have progressive coils on the bottom for the rear. they don't go loose on full droop.

Mike Shields claimed they were "15% stiffer than stock" but then again the GT springs are supposed to be slightly stiffer than L/LSi/Brighton springs (SOA won't say by how much) -- been meaning to do some load/deflection testing to really find out what's going on. I have an old Hyperrev with detailed spring info, if I figure out the katakana for 'eibach' maybe it'll be in there... (forgotten most all the japanese I learned eon's ago...)

I'll put some pictures up for everyone's reference soon.

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Old 04-26-2000, 11:22 PM   #9
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Question

mccasksl,

I'm confused.....I have Legacy Eibachs form SPD that say EW7706002 HA on the springs - how come they are different from yours (7706.140).

Mine too lowered the car 1.8/1.5 f/r. I took almost a year to decide on lowering 0.75in and was nervous about that....and now I have 2X drop............kind of felt let down..........but the car handles like superman.

Only drawback is that the ride is pretty stiff on bad roads......it just becomes harsh.....so I'm now running 1/2 f/r Kyb settings. So much better but still.....

So what can I do to raise the back a bit more....you were talking about some plastic wrap....where can I get some and can I install them with the spring on the car? Dont mind jacking the front up abit to.

I bet if I got the correct 0.75-1 in drop the shock travel would be much more comfortable on the car and body.

Anyways, I'm still trying to find out for SPD on why they were way off on drop height.

Its not nice claiming one thing and not delivering.

We'll se what pans out.

GTMAN
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Old 04-27-2000, 02:32 AM   #10
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gtman,

when they say it'll drop X inches, there can be a lot of variance between instances of the same car model due to any number of reasons.

that being said, a 20mm drop (.78") is the absolute minimum I've ever seen spec'd for lowered springs (and usually only on one end the other typically lower), 25-35 mm (1-1.37") being more the average, some going as high/low as 50mm (2") All the springs readily available these days are at least a 1" drop.

unfortunately I doubt you (or I with the first generation of springs sold by SPD) will get the .75" drop -- likely a spurious claim...

[This message has been edited by BG5 (edited April 27, 2000).]
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Old 04-27-2000, 05:02 AM   #11
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gtman: ...yes those are the Eibach springs for the Legacy (same as mine) the Eibach web page / box calls the part number out as 7706.140 but the springs have extra numbers / letters printed on them (EW7705001VA (front) EW7706002HA (rear)). As for raising the rear, putting the plastic tubing on the springs when they're off the car is a real bitch let alone when they're on the car. Someone mentioned the plastic coil wrap / strip etc. which sounds alot better / easier to install although still a chore while on the car. You need to wrap the progressive end / spring coils / turns with the stuff or tubing so when it sits static (bottoms out the coils) the plastic tubing / coil wrap spaces out the coils a bit, increases ride height. The rear spring has those coils at the top which makes it even tougher. Jack it up, take the rear wheel off and give the plastic wrap a try (clean off the springs first), can't hurt (USE GOOD jack / jackstands don't want to lose any fingers or worse) If you feel / look closely at the springs you can tell which coils have been bottoming out while driving. I initially wrapped (tubing) 4+ coils (ie. all the tight progressive coils) but gradually took some out (now only 2 full turns)to lower it back down to where I wanted it (poor mans ride height adjustment). Just remember the plastic may degrade / deform / compress w/ time so use good stuff. My clutch has the plastic wrap on the hydraulic hose from the master to slave cylinder, same stuff should work on the springs, take a peek. Looking at my car last night I might try the plastic coil wrap instead, looks like it may be more durable, thanks whoever suggested that.

As for advertised lowering, I think the Eibach web page / specs say 30mm lowering for the Legacy Springs (7706.140) and 30 mm lowering for the Impreza springs (7705.140). On my Legacy I got something like 1.8/1.4 f/r inches while the Impreza is something like 0.35/0.5 inches f/r. Go figure!!! I still need to sort the Impreza out. The back behaves nicely (20mm rear bar) but the front has its nose up in the air wagging / sniffing around like a dog and rolling around the turns like crazy. I still need to put the KYB/AGXs on too.

Best of luck!!!
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Old 04-27-2000, 01:15 PM   #12
slide
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Ladies and Gentlemen- For all the rest of you who haven't upgraded their suspension yet, Check out GAB... 4 way adjustable fronts 8 way rears. 1.5 inch drop. Handles like its on rails. Also when you uprade 17's on the wheels, you can't plus size with the tires. go 215-40-17 they fit great no rub. 215-45-17 rubs, unless you take the inside plastic fender guard out. You could probably fit a 225-35-17 in there. I wonder if they make it?
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Old 04-27-2000, 09:51 PM   #13
GTMAN
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Being a world famous company like Eibach, one would expect quality controls and tests to make sure every spring performs as engineered. This should not be pheomenon for them as their leaders is mass production performance springs for years...and their GERMAN! BMW, Prosche, Audi.....supposed to be perfect.
If our company did something out of spec and the customers got it...shoot we would get slapped with an 8D corrective action in not time.

Sure the car rides awesome....it just gets me to not get what I want......well as long as it doesn't sag over time and go bad for some mysterious reason......thats all that I can hope for.

Just looking at H&R people comments, looks like H&R's seem to just drop the car 0.25in more than spec'ed.....which is reasonable. No body ranting about over spec'ed drop.

Anyways a big plus is that the center of gravity must probably be at its best.

I wonder what the Eibach warranty says....

Anyway enough ranting. Gotta think of what mod to do next. Plastic wraps on the rear to induce a bit of a rake look..maybe..!

GTMAN

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Old 04-28-2000, 12:30 AM   #14
PaulN
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Question

Slide

My GT-B has lowered suspension (Don't know how much - I bought it like it - but theres virtually no vertical gap between the top of the rear tyre and arch) and has 215/45 17s as standard and there is no rubbing

Paul
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Old 04-29-2000, 12:41 AM   #15
BG5
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in case anyone is interested, got off my lazy butt and finally did some spring rate testing to figure out what's going on with my ride.

essentially:

96 OEM Legacy Wagon springs
F: 180 lb/in, R: 120 lb/in

Eibach/Prodrive WR Legacy springs
F: 100 lb/in R: 95-200 lb/in (progressive to linear coils)

the numbers generally jive with the specs I've seen for other similar springs except for the front eibach's, the pro-kit eibach's are probably slightly different, my 99 GT springs are probably also slightly different, the numbers are good to probably +-say 5 to 10 lbs.

[This message has been edited by BG5 (edited April 29, 2000).]
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Old 04-30-2000, 11:04 PM   #16
GTMAN
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BG5,

But the front is progressive also. At least both the front and back springs that I have have tightly wound coils on top/bottom of the coils.

I wondering that the springs are so soft that the car is riding past the tight winds and are solely riding on the wider wound coils.....basically theres no more progressiveness......humm? Does that make sense?

But I thought SPD claims that it is about 15% stiffer than stock GT springs....and some members on the board also made similar comments.

Hopefully this is not the case and the car is not under sprung cus the AGX's can dish out some major damping.

GTMAN
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Old 05-01-2000, 12:23 AM   #17
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here are what my Prodrive/Eibach's look like

<img src=http://www.3tube.com/bg5/eibach_spring.JPG>


the shorter spring on the right is the one for the front. the rear spring on the left definetely has the progressive coils on the bottom.

and the car does look like in this Prodrive pic (lower in the rear) for their WR Sport kit:

<img src=http://www.acekensington.co.uk/prodrive/images/proleg.jpg>

with them on, the response was good on low-to-moderate speed smooth & twisty roads with a fair tradeoff between stiff-harsh although like mccasksl found there wasn't as much feedback to be had. On typically rough San Francisco ski-jumps (er streets...) or high-speed highways with ripples/joints the ride became objectionable. My current feeling in line with what GTMAN is suggesting is that the progressive coils are probably too soft, and possibly the linear coils are just a tad too stiff for American roads... (the 200lb/in figure would put the springs in line with most Japanese spring sets i.e. 3.58kg/mm like a rear Cusco or Prova spring set)

anyone else out there with Prodrive/Eibach's?

p.s. the stock wagon springs I measured, the front figure may be off. I tested the other front spring and it was about 20 lb/in lower (old saggy springs or inconsistent manufacturing)



[This message has been edited by BG5 (edited May 01, 2000).]
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Old 05-01-2000, 06:48 AM   #18
Automorph
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Got the Eiback/AGX but haven't installed, wondering the difference between prodrive ones and normal Eibach?? Hope mine don't sag!!
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Old 05-01-2000, 08:21 AM   #19
BG5
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automorph,

it looks like the prodrive springs are significantly different from the Eibach Pro-Kit that's available nowadays. Eibach's seem to be manufactured well enough so they shouldn't sag...
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Old 05-01-2000, 10:18 PM   #20
GTMAN
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Exclamation

BG5,

Maybe the eibach's that we have are the Sport Line kit - according to the brochure that I have, Sport Line kit is to give race car like lowering and performance. Or maybe it is the Road Race Kit that gives "0.5-2.5 in".....humm please let there be logic.

automorph,

Where did you get your eibachs? If you don't mind the car getting lowered about 1.6-2" then go for it. I asked my sister to drive the car on the freeway over the weekend to get an enbiased opinion; and she said "good".....so I took the wheel from her as I could not just sit there and not feel my car out through her driving.

Got behind the wheel, and the 35 min of freeway driving was the most fun I ever had in my driving life. AGX's were set at 2f/4r. Did some agressive lane changes (not ticking people off of course), avoided a piece ot tire on the road....kept up winding thru traffic with a Z3......moves that connot be achieved with a stock suspension in confidence.

Only thing I did notice was that the car was a bit more actively responding to my steering inputs, rather that passively before, which made my arms feel more tired. Boeing 747 to a F-16 comes to mind...but not unstable if you take your hands of the wheel for coupla seconds.

Anyway......performance wise, lower is better at least for the combination that you've got.....comfort....what's that....just kidding, its like what BG5 said.


GTMAN.


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Old 05-01-2000, 11:45 PM   #21
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Still confused though, got my eibach/AGX from SPD and never got a box but was told a .75 drop and everyone says 1.5-2 inch drop. Thats way off and i am currently running 205/55/16 with no money to change will i rub and kill tires (uneven wear) ??? Also AGX say up to 1 inch drop is what shock will handle?? AAARRRRGGGGGHHHHH Also my Legacy is higher in the front as it is, definitely do not want McKacksl Impreza look!If that happens thinking of chopping a little off the front??? Recommended?
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Old 05-02-2000, 06:45 AM   #22
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Its not higher in the front, the wheel arches are just higher. I have the prodrive/eibach springs, I don't know if they are the same as the SPD/eibach ones but they didn't drop the car that much. I didn't measure but I would say no more than 3/4 to 1". Also don't cut the springs!
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Old 05-02-2000, 10:44 PM   #23
GTMAN
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automorph,

If you got SPD Eibachs, they may turn out to be 1.5+in. dorp. I have a feeling it may not give you the duck out of the water look cus yours is a legacy....no promises though. But I look at my car now and feel like I need the front even lower....its like an addiction. But then sanity kicks in and tells me all the drive ways that I would scrape.

Trust me the handling will as you imagined if not more. Your stock wheels should not rub....mine has not. Just have a good shop with performance import car experience to do it for you - sometimes experience plays a better role than specs..

True that the AGX's instruction say what the say, but I have pretty much gone thru all the settings on the strut, and have not felt any sort of fade or lack of damping. So they do function well even at that drop.

Do not cut the springs.

Hope this helps ease your mind....which ever way you decide.

GTMAN


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Old 05-03-2000, 01:49 AM   #24
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Thanks,that helps alot pllleeeeaaassee no duck out of the water!!!

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Old 05-03-2000, 04:31 PM   #25
BG5
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while I don't dispute that the arches are different when I measured the fender to wheel heights b4 and after I got roughly 1.0"F and 1.5" in the rear. Posture was rather flat, the slight rake was gone. (as a side effect my un-realigned headlights were shooting near horizontal, guess that's the other thing to check if u haven't already)

Didn't actually measure front and rear ground clearance which is probably the more useful measurement. These are for the Prodrive springs *only*.

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