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Old 01-14-2010, 01:52 PM   #76
boardinshorty81
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Originally Posted by saint_foo View Post
Sure, it's news to most of us in the U.S. However, until someone does a fair side-by-side comparison with other solutions such as PPG and MFactory, all the hype isn't that helpful, other than saying there's another product available. All the Albins stuff I've heard/read basically sounds like a polished sales pitch. Almost like someone cut and pasted the words off a brochure.

Also, one of the complaints about PPGs that folks throw out there are the high pricing. Who's to say that Albins won't be more expensive? One thing that I've pointed out in the various 6-speed versus PPG versus MFactory postings is what is the final cost? How much will it set back the person who's car that it's going into? You not only need to factor in the parts, there's install costs, downtime, etc.

Artie from Agile - Have you actually experienced Albins in a Subaru or a different car manufacturer? Just curious.
The price is listed on that forum at $3000, and the install would be something close to that of ppgs assuming you don't need new syncros. This would leave the final cost well below ppgs.
I know that it seems like a sales pitch but wouldn't you think the same thing of ppgs before they were popular in the subaru world? A replacement gearset so more power can be on the 5mt trans stronger than anything so far? I defiantly would have thought it was fishy. All I am saying is don't shut them down right away just because it seems too good to be true.

I am not saying that they are the best out there, but they seem to be a step up from ra but a step down from ppgs which many people on here are looking for.
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Old 01-14-2010, 04:04 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by driftingrotary View Post
To find what kind of tranny u have is easy! Find a plate on the driver side of the vehicle when u pop the hood and in Japanese/Chinese it should read Fuji auto industries.


What is this doing here and what are you talking about?

And way to be ignorant... Chinese and Japanese, same thing right?
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Old 01-14-2010, 04:52 PM   #78
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i just started upgrading my 2003 WRX.

evoIII 16g on e85.

now i drive like an old granny most of the time. and never slam gears or do burnouts.. but having the stock trans is a liability..

options are a 6 speed or rebuilt 5 speed. i would prefer to keep the weight down (not buy the 6) but i dont want to get 4 to 6k into a tranny and have it break anyway.

plans are for a hybrid motor later on so more torque coming..

... so someone just needs to build a 5 speed upgrade that supports x torque and provide a warranty...

i really dont want to add 100 lbs to my car..
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Old 01-14-2010, 04:55 PM   #79
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Weight is the LAST thing you think about when upgrading your transmission. The very last. You should be thinking ratios, price, uses, and potential strength.
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Old 01-14-2010, 09:51 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by saint_foo View Post
Sure, it's news to most of us in the U.S. However, until someone does a fair side-by-side comparison with other solutions such as PPG and MFactory, all the hype isn't that helpful, other than saying there's another product available. All the Albins stuff I've heard/read basically sounds like a polished sales pitch. Almost like someone cut and pasted the words off a brochure.

Also, one of the complaints about PPGs that folks throw out there are the high pricing. Who's to say that Albins won't be more expensive? One thing that I've pointed out in the various 6-speed versus PPG versus MFactory postings is what is the final cost? How much will it set back the person who's car that it's going into? You not only need to factor in the parts, there's install costs, downtime, etc.

Artie from Agile - Have you actually experienced Albins in a Subaru or a different car manufacturer? Just curious.
I think you're right that most of the Albins threads sound like a sales pitches. I also think that side by side comparisons are good.
I started a few threads about Albins myself (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1896342), and even though they may sound like words from the brochure, it is great info for those shopping for a new gear set. For example, information about Albins' experience or material they use is very helpful to the uninformed consumer. Tooth profile or thickness could be visually noticed by anybody, but the real difference in strength and durability is in the material used and the manufacturing process.

In my personal experience, the Albins product line is high quality and of impressive workmanship. I have been working with Albins since last year. During that time, I have assembled various Albins gearboxes with straight cut dog engagement and helical synchro sets. I have had consistently positive experiences with their products.
Here are some photos of a gear set that I assembled:



Quote:
Originally Posted by tolnep View Post
i just started upgrading my 2003 WRX.

evoIII 16g on e85.

now i drive like an old granny most of the time. and never slam gears or do burnouts.. but having the stock trans is a liability..

options are a 6 speed or rebuilt 5 speed. i would prefer to keep the weight down (not buy the 6) but i dont want to get 4 to 6k into a tranny and have it break anyway.

plans are for a hybrid motor later on so more torque coming..

... so someone just needs to build a 5 speed upgrade that supports x torque and provide a warranty...

i really dont want to add 100 lbs to my car..
I hear you. It will be nice if the manufacturers would offer warranty, but this it is probably not gonna happen. How can they monitor your power level or if you did not abuse it etc? In the world of transmissions, it is takes time to break the gear. Fatigue may cause damage over time, and you may be OK to drive on certain transmission for a year or two, but there is no guarantee that it would not break next year.

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Originally Posted by Unabomber View Post
Weight is the LAST thing you think about when upgrading your transmission. The very last. You should be thinking ratios, price, uses, and potential strength.
I think it's personal choice. There may be some experts that will agree with you, but there is no absolute in the process of choosing the gear box. For me, price would be the last consideration.
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Old 01-14-2010, 10:50 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Unabomber View Post
Weight is the LAST thing you think about when upgrading your transmission. The very last. You should be thinking ratios, price, uses, and potential strength.
yes..

but here's the way i look at it..

price dollars ok built 5 or 6 roughly the same price..
ratios .. like the 5 speed
uses.. street and i would like to take it to 1/4 track to once or twice, but this is not its purpose
uses... its a 'toy' basically but i dont like to break my toys
potential strength.. now thats the rub, right? thats what i would like quantified.. say i produce x torque, will a built 5 be expected to last at least two years .. say at 20,000 miles of usage? still working on what my end torque will be.. but nothing outrageous..
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Old 01-15-2010, 10:14 AM   #82
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Hey tolnep, why not get an earlier JDM gearbox and maybe diff with it? I have a 1998 JDM Ver4 STI (we can import the whole cars into the UK), and I'm very happy with it indeed. The gears are fantastic ratios, close and evenly spaced-feeling, top gear 80 mph = 3600 rpm. First and reverse are difficult to select, just like my 2002 US bugeye was, but everything else is excellent. Basically, factory short shifter compared to US car too. The dynamics are great. The gearbox isn't heavy, and neither is the 160 rear diff. The final drive is higher, which takes some strain off the gears, and you just don't hear about many people breaking them. One of our best tuners says 400+ BHP might shorten the gearbox's life.
http://andyforrestperformance.co.uk/58699.html
I agree with you about gearbox weight. 100 lbs is a lot. The less weight you have the easier is the life of every component. Everyone I've met who's driven a Classic JDM car prefers them to the later cars, because they are more exciting, more nimble, more of a driver's car. They're lighter!
I just looked for JDMSpec in Quebec, but couldn't find their website. They could probably find you some good stuff if you're interested.
I certainly don't want 6 gears. 1st in the US WRX is too low, and 1st in the 6 speed is even lower. It's a waste. I get good fuel mileage on long trips, lower 5th doesn't seem to matter.
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Old 01-16-2010, 06:35 AM   #83
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Hmm, I checked this fuel consumption thread, http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1774533
and I guess I could get better fuel mileage with 6 gears. When I converted UK gallons into US gallons I realised my consumption is a bit heavy.
I'd like to keep the 5 ratios I have though, and add a higher gear on top. To me, it's a pity Subaru didn't do that when they added a 6th gear.
More on topic, if the RA gears are matched with a higher final drive they are likely to be strong enough for most people who knew how to drive a manual car before they bought a Subaru, and have less than 400 (crank) BHP (with a 2 litre car the low end torque should not be a big worry. If Andy Forrest is talking about a tune he is doing (in my previous link), I'm sure he's trying to get as much torque as he can along with the 400 BHP).
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Old 07-12-2010, 09:20 AM   #84
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I was thinking the same thing about weight. The added 100lb surely is not because of a larger aluminum case, which leaves 100lb of additional rotating mass for most of the part.
This would mean a lower overall efficiency, when comparing with the 5 speed, resulting in even less whp.
I posted this a while back and a member posted dyno results that seemed to indicate the same whp in the 5 speed in 3rd and 6 speed in 4th, right after the swap.
I don't know weather to believe this or not.
Anyway, there are two more problems: the 5 speed is "open" front diff (a cause of understeering) and the 1 and 2 gears in the 5 speed would need to have the ratios changed, under my opinion.

So, I would think that possibly the best solution would be a 5 speed with a 1-2 PPG with taller ratios. I wonder how that compares financially with the 6 speed.
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Old 07-12-2010, 12:40 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Vlad View Post
Anyway, there are two more problems: the 5 speed is "open" front diff (a cause of understeering) and the 1 and 2 gears in the 5 speed would need to have the ratios changed, under my opinion.
WHAT? My 5 speed has a front Helical diff and a DCCD unit. The trans came out of a 98 Impreza Outback Sport.....How the heck did that happen?

Nevermind, I put those diffs there because....well, they fit.

Jay
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Old 07-21-2011, 02:13 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thefoos View Post
To bump this up again, I want to get back to the OP.

The root cause of gear tooth shear as the OP pointed out was shaft flex, mainly on the input. All of the talk in this thread has been about gears. Why?

If the root cause of the failure is the input shaft, what options do we have to eliminate input shaft flex? Can we support the shaft at another location (I'm guess not)? Can we make a shaft out of stronger material? Heat treat and cyro treat the stock shaft?

Anyone know what the material (obviously steel, more specifically) is on the stock input shaft and the treatments it received?
Bump for this question ^^^^
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Old 07-21-2011, 03:09 PM   #87
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^^thicker input shaft seems the easiest/most logical solution, no? how thick are albins/PPG input shafts compared to OEM? materials are already stronger.
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Old 07-21-2011, 03:24 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UP2MTNS
^^thicker input shaft seems the easiest/most logical solution, no? how thick are albins/PPG input shafts compared to OEM? materials are already stronger.
I wouldnt necessarily say thicker means stronger. One would think it has to do with material and its density across the shaft more so than that of the diameter of the shaft.
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Old 07-21-2011, 04:01 PM   #89
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I don't recall any difference in thickness, nor do I believe there is anyplace you can really make things thicker where the gear stacks are, possibly a bit thicker near the diff area. Either way, a ppg or albins the same thickness as oem will be stronger(less flex).
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Old 07-21-2011, 04:02 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by 2Fast4U1DAY View Post
I wouldnt necessarily say thicker means stronger. One would think it has to do with material and its density across the shaft more so than that of the diameter of the shaft.
but directly proportional to reducing flexing, and stronger material doesn't mean less flex. Carbon fiber is very strong, but it flexes quite a bit as well.

a 1/4'' dia wood dowel will flex more than a 1/2" dia wood dowel...material is the same, but certainly able to withstand a greater amount of force, or reduce the flex distance for the same amount of force. (and this wouldn't effect the gear stacks)

of course, if for X forces you need a wood dowel that's 6" in diameter, then sure....start looking for stronger materials as well, but then costs go way up as well....hence, the price of PPg's and Albins. (which are cheap alternatives compared to gears from Hollinger and Kaps).


an interesting cost/benefit design problem for sure.

Last edited by UP2MTNS; 07-21-2011 at 04:16 PM.
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Old 07-21-2011, 04:25 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by UP2MTNS View Post
hence, the price of PPg's and Albins. (which are cheap alternatives compared to gears from Hollinger and Kaps).
Care to elaborate?
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Old 07-21-2011, 08:02 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by erikos View Post
Care to elaborate?

I guess 'cheaper' would be a better adjective....Hollinger gearsets go for like $18K+.....so relatively speaking, $5K is cheap.

Modena makes a sequential 6speed for $30K. although, the gearset is "only" $12K

I heard the Kaps sequential is like $50K or something like that....but it comes with a sweet-ass CF shifter

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Old 07-22-2011, 08:44 PM   #93
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Modena sequential is almost $30k without the 3 LSDs. The $12K is about the price of the dog box kit which can later be upgraded to the sequential with the rest of the kit. It's a modular upgradeable system. And the Modena sequential also includes a "trick" shifter. Just look closely at the video of Travis in the Mt Washington hill climb video that's been circulating. You can seen the Modena shifter in a few of the in car shots.
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Old 07-23-2011, 12:36 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UP2MTNS View Post
I guess 'cheaper' would be a better adjective....Hollinger gearsets go for like $18K+.....so relatively speaking, $5K is cheap.

Modena makes a sequential 6speed for $30K. although, the gearset is "only" $12K

I heard the Kaps sequential is like $50K or something like that....but it comes with a sweet-ass CF shifter


Still sounds like you are alluding to them being not as good...
I do like the KAPS shifters, they can make for pretty much anything out there.
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Old 07-23-2011, 01:07 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erikos View Post
Still sounds like you are alluding to them being not as good...
well, I don't have the technical/engineering knowledge to give you an in-depth intelligent comparison, but I would certainly hope an $18K gear set is better than a $5K gear set. Holinger/Kaps certainly wouldn't be in business if they weren't, but again its all relative....everything breaks, so its really just a matter of how deep your pockets are.

So when you consider the range of what's out there, PPG and Albins are relatively inexpensive (or grossly under priced! )
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Old 07-23-2011, 09:05 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UP2MTNS

but directly proportional to reducing flexing, and stronger material doesn't mean less flex. Carbon fiber is very strong, but it flexes quite a bit as well.

a 1/4'' dia wood dowel will flex more than a 1/2" dia wood dowel...material is the same, but certainly able to withstand a greater amount of force, or reduce the flex distance for the same amount of force. (and this wouldn't effect the gear stacks)

of course, if for X forces you need a wood dowel that's 6" in diameter, then sure....start looking for stronger materials as well, but then costs go way up as well....hence, the price of PPg's and Albins. (which are cheap alternatives compared to gears from Hollinger and Kaps).

an interesting cost/benefit design problem for sure.
The way I see it is that if you increase the diameter of the shaft, you have to decrease the gears tooth profile, or the diameter of the gear altogether, which would result in the same as a shaft that flexes (busted gears).

Theres only x amount of room in the case to work with and unless someone wants to come up with a new case design that will allow you to use a bigger profile tooth/diameter gear ALONG with a larger diameter shaft, then you could take care of most of the issues the 5 spd boxes from Subaru have.

The above reason is why I said a stronger material. Who gives a f about cost? I sure don't. If I'm breaking gearsets, I want to get something thats not going to do so, and since the more logical explanation is to use a stronger material and strict quailty control (test the density across the shaft to make sure its evenly distributed), and have a product that will hold up to what we put them through, who wouldnt spend the extra money to do it right?
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Old 07-23-2011, 01:41 PM   #97
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So... I'm in street prepared for autoX and am not allowed to change out gears (transmission has to remain stock as a whole, except differentials).

Am I basically screwed? I can swap any 02-07 WRX 5spd transmission, but it has to be stock. I think I can cryo treat the gears or shot peen them, but I'll have to look into that... would that help at all?
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Old 07-23-2011, 03:43 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeBop86 View Post
So... I'm in street prepared for autoX and am not allowed to change out gears (transmission has to remain stock as a whole, except differentials).

Am I basically screwed? I can swap any 02-07 WRX 5spd transmission, but it has to be stock. I think I can cryo treat the gears or shot peen them, but I'll have to look into that... would that help at all?
I'm not familliar with SP rules for autoX...what's your engine mods/power?

the rallispec post said that the main cause is shaft flex that occurs around 275whp....so if you have more than that....yes, you're screwed. Shot peen won't stop shaft flex....not sure about cryo treating.


I had 270wtq (dyno measurement) in my rally car when I sheared 2nd gear, (high shock load....sideways into a sandy/high friction corner, downshifted and dropped the clutch) so I'm willing to bet that's what happened to mine. Every tooth sheared off clean.



2Fast4U1DAY: I'm with you....get what you pay for. I got a Modena gearset to replace my stock gears . I thought BeBob86 bumped the thread because he was looking for design solutions (because he quoted thefoos who was talking about design changes) and so I just suggested the easiest thing that came to mind.

Looking at my old input shaft, there is a section that could easily be thickened w/o affecting any of the gears/tooth profile. whether its worth it to have a shop do the work, or if it will make a difference, that's another story.
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Old 07-23-2011, 05:24 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UP2MTNS

I'm not familliar with SP rules for autoX...what's your engine mods/power?

the rallispec post said that the main cause is shaft flex that occurs around 275whp....so if you have more than that....yes, you're screwed. Shot peen won't stop shaft flex....not sure about cryo treating.

I had 270wtq (dyno measurement) in my rally car when I sheared 2nd gear, (high shock load....sideways into a sandy/high friction corner, downshifted and dropped the clutch) so I'm willing to bet that's what happened to mine. Every tooth sheared off clean.

2Fast4U1DAY: I'm with you....get what you pay for. I got a Modena gearset to replace my stock gears . I thought BeBob86 bumped the thread because he was looking for design solutions (because he quoted thefoos who was talking about design changes) and so I just suggested the easiest thing that came to mind.

Looking at my old input shaft, there is a section that could easily be thickened w/o affecting any of the gears/tooth profile. whether its worth it to have a shop do the work, or if it will make a difference, that's another story.
The only problem I see with only making ONE part of the shaft flex less, is that you just move the flex to another part of the shaft, which could still mean for busted gears, or you could just snap the mainshaft, which still means having to crack the case and remove the gears from the mainshaft and put them on a new one (if they make it out undamaged).

I say just make the damn things out of titanium and be done. Lighter, stronger and wont flex easily (in comparison).
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Old 07-23-2011, 05:31 PM   #100
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SP is stock engine and turbo, unlimited engine management basically (boost, timing, etc.)

I'll be swapping in a 2.5l, so yeah, around 260hp 300 tq
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