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Old 07-23-2011, 05:54 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by UP2MTNS View Post
well, I don't have the technical/engineering knowledge to give you an in-depth intelligent comparison, but I would certainly hope an $18K gear set is better than a $5K gear set. Holinger/Kaps certainly wouldn't be in business if they weren't, but again its all relative....everything breaks, so its really just a matter of how deep your pockets are.

So when you consider the range of what's out there, PPG and Albins are relatively inexpensive (or grossly under priced! )
Not sure why you are comparing the price of a 4 speed dog kit made for the 5 speed tranny's vs 6 speed kits for the 6 speeds. Albins 6 speed dog kit is priced in line with the Modena, both of which save you good money over a Hollinger and don't give up anything for the savings. I am not that familiar with KAPS gears to make a statement, but I am not sure how the gearset itself can be any better than the others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Fast4U1DAY View Post
The only problem I see with only making ONE part of the shaft flex less, is that you just move the flex to another part of the shaft, which could still mean for busted gears, or you could just snap the mainshaft, which still means having to crack the case and remove the gears from the mainshaft and put them on a new one (if they make it out undamaged).

I say just make the damn things out of titanium and be done. Lighter, stronger and wont flex easily (in comparison).
I am no materials expert, but I am pretty sure that even if cost was not crazy, ti would shred to peices way faster than OEM.
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Old 07-23-2011, 06:18 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erikos

Not sure why you are comparing the price of a 4 speed dog kit made for the 5 speed tranny's vs 6 speed kits for the 6 speeds. Albins 6 speed dog kit is priced in line with the Modena, both of which save you good money over a Hollinger and don't give up anything for the savings. I am not that familiar with KAPS gears to make a statement, but I am not sure how the gearset itself can be any better than the others.

I am no materials expert, but I am pretty sure that even if cost was not crazy, ti would shred to peices way faster than OEM.
Go figure? Most gears are made from forged steel alloys. Last time I checked titanium is one of the strongest metals, and if you forged them or make an alloy with it and forge that then you would have a signifcantly stronger gear. But this is just MHO, I'm by far not a Metallurgy expert.
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Old 07-23-2011, 06:58 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by 2Fast4U1DAY View Post
Go figure? Most gears are made from forged steel alloys. Last time I checked titanium is one of the strongest metals, and if you forged them or make an alloy with it and forge that then you would have a signifcantly stronger gear. But this is just MHO, I'm by far not a Metallurgy expert.
I think your closing statement says it the best... Most high quality race gears are NOT make from forged steel alloys. They are made from billet. OEMs use forgings. Real motorsports gear cutters, including Modena, Albins, and Holinger all make their gears from billet and don't forge anything. Forging is a fancy word for a kind of casting.

I'm not going to to even go down the titanium route. That's a waste of my energy when you could just do a little homework. Let's just say that those of us in the industry manufacture our products out of gear steel for a reason. There's an actual grade and alloy called gear steel. If titanium was an appropriate material for making gears, we would have started using is decades ago, cost be damned.
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Old 07-23-2011, 08:20 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Monson View Post
Forging is a fancy word for a kind of casting.
Isn't forging always done with a solid block or billet? I thought it was impossible/impractical forge a complex shape like a gear. I can't conceive of how one would forge a gear without bending or breaking it, but as mentioned I'm mostly ignorant of such things.

In other words, doesn't forging imply the use of a billet or block followed by cutting to the final shape, and therefore imply no casting involved? (Except to cast the original block / billet.)

(I know the opposite is not true of course, i.e. cutting from a billet does not imply that the billet was forged.)
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Old 07-23-2011, 09:04 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by erikos View Post
Not sure why you are comparing the price of a 4 speed dog kit made for the 5 speed tranny's vs 6 speed kits for the 6 speeds. Albins 6 speed dog kit is priced in line with the Modena, both of which save you good money over a Hollinger and don't give up anything for the savings. I am not that familiar with KAPS gears to make a statement, but I am not sure how the gearset itself can be any better than the others.
I wasn't comparing specific gearsets or why you thought I was, the pricing I threw out there was just a generalization....but thank you for re-stating my original point....Albins/PPG (and we can add Modena to that list) are cheaper than some of the alternatives out there. And that's all I said.

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Old 07-23-2011, 09:09 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by 2Fast4U1DAY View Post
The only problem I see with only making ONE part of the shaft flex less, is that you just move the flex to another part of the shaft, which could still mean for busted gears, or you could just snap the mainshaft, which still means having to crack the case and remove the gears from the mainshaft and put them on a new one (if they make it out undamaged).

I say just make the damn things out of titanium and be done. Lighter, stronger and wont flex easily (in comparison).
I'll get a photo up.....the shaft where the gears are pressed on is actually quite thick, between 1st gear and the point on the shaft where the input shaft bearing supports it is significantly machined down....so that is probably where the flex 'failure' occurs. so if you added back material to that point (not sure if/how you would do that, but I digress), it could/should at least minimize flex. Would be an interesting experimental mod for sure.
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Old 07-23-2011, 09:23 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Monson

I think your closing statement says it the best... Most high quality race gears are NOT make from forged steel alloys. They are made from billet. OEMs use forgings. Real motorsports gear cutters, including Modena, Albins, and Holinger all make their gears from billet and don't forge anything. Forging is a fancy word for a kind of casting.

I'm not going to to even go down the titanium route. That's a waste of my energy when you could just do a little homework. Let's just say that those of us in the industry manufacture our products out of gear steel for a reason. There's an actual grade and alloy called gear steel. If titanium was an appropriate material for making gears, we would have started using is decades ago, cost be damned.
Actually I was referring to OEM when I made the forged steel alloy/titanium statement. But thanks for clarifying that. Like I said before I'm not a metallurgy expert, I was just trying to make an example, and I guess I made a bad one lol.

Last edited by 2Fast4U1DAY; 07-23-2011 at 10:05 PM.
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Old 07-23-2011, 09:53 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by UP2MTNS View Post
I wasn't comparing specific gearsets or why you thought I was, the pricing I threw out there was just a generalization....but thank you for re-stating my original point....Albins/PPG (and we can add Modena to that list) are cheaper than some of the alternatives out there. And that's all I said.
How did I restate that Albins and PPG are "cheaper"" than Modena AND at the same time state that all three are about the same? That is what I would have to do to re-state what you said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UP2MTNS View Post
I'll get a photo up.....the shaft where the gears are pressed on is actually quite thick, between 1st gear and the point on the shaft where the input shaft bearing supports it is significantly machined down....so that is probably where the flex 'failure' occurs. so if you added back material to that point (not sure if/how you would do that, but I digress), it could/should at least minimize flex. Would be an interesting experimental mod for sure.
The "flex" is where the gears push away from each other. It is possible to put in a brace to hold them together, but you will give up way more strength in lost gear width than you would gain from keeping them together. Some Honda kits use a brace to help hold things together, but it replaces a all of 5th gear and does not effect the others, making it a 4 speed box. No such luck with subie as you would have to remove 2nd or 3rd.
Modifying a shaft itself is a losing game.
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Old 07-23-2011, 11:24 PM   #109
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How did I restate that Albins and PPG are "cheaper"" than Modena AND at the same time state that all three are about the same? That is what I would have to do to re-state what you said.
Simple....
I said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by UP2MTNS View Post
PPg's and Albins. (which are cheap[er] alternatives compared to gears from Hollinger and Kaps).
you said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by erikos View Post
Albins 6 speed dog kit is priced in line with the Modena, both of which save you good money over a Hollinger and don't give up anything for the savings.
And I agreed with you, and included Modena in my original list. So lets revisit my statement: Albins, PPG and Modena are cheap[er] alternatives to Hollinger and Kaps.

5sp vs 5sp or 6sp vs 6sp.....either or, same difference.

The 'are they worth it' and 'is one really better than the other' are whole other discussions.




Quote:
Originally Posted by erikos View Post
The "flex" is where the gears push away from each other. It is possible to put in a brace to hold them together, but you will give up way more strength in lost gear width than you would gain from keeping them together. Some Honda kits use a brace to help hold things together, but it replaces a all of 5th gear and does not effect the others, making it a 4 speed box. No such luck with subie as you would have to remove 2nd or 3rd.
Modifying a shaft itself is a losing game.
I was talking about thickening the shaft where its thinner relative to the rest of it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by UP2MTNS View Post
.the shaft where the gears are pressed on is actually quite thick, between 1st gear and the point on the shaft where the input shaft bearing supports it is significantly machined down....so that is probably where the flex 'failure' occurs. so if you added back material to that point (not sure if/how you would do that, but I digress), it could/should at least minimize flex. Would be an interesting experimental mod for sure.


so...input shaft is support between the two bearings.....where the two pins are. Force comes from 2nd gear (green sharpie) pushing the gears apart and the shaft flexes 'away' from the outputshaft, thus separating the gears.

I'm suggesting thickening the shaft where the screwdriver is.....the shaft is 1.06" at 1st gear....but its machined down to ~.75" over the length of the screwdriver....so ~25% thinner, that has to be significant, yes/no? In my opinion, that's the obvious weak spot, and if you could either add material or weld a sleeve over that area, it theoretically COULD increase shaft rigidity.

that assumes the root cause it correct...maybe the OEM bearings allow some movement as well?

hmmm....I could test this actually....I have a shop press and might be able to set it up with the shaft supported on both ends and add a significant load to shaft at 1st gear and see just how much it deflects.....(how would I figure out how much 275wtq equals in 'perpendicular force'?)

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Old 07-23-2011, 11:46 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by UP2MTNS View Post
I wasn't comparing specific gearsets or why you thought I was, the pricing I threw out there was just a generalization....but thank you for re-stating my original point....Albins/PPG (and we can add Modena to that list) are cheaper than some of the alternatives out there. And that's all I said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UP2MTNS View Post
Simple....
I said:

you said:


And I agreed with you, and included Modena in my original list. So lets revisit my statement: Albins, PPG and Modena are cheap[er] alternatives to Hollinger and Kaps.

5sp vs 5sp or 6sp vs 6sp.....either or, same difference.

The 'are they worth it' and 'is one really better than the other' are whole other discussions.






I was talking about thickening the shaft where its thinner relative to the rest of it.






so...input shaft is support between the two bearings.....where the two pins are. Force comes from 2nd gear (green sharpie) pushing the gears apart and the shaft flexes 'away' from the outputshaft, thus separating the gears.

I'm suggesting thickening the shaft where the screwdriver is.....the shaft is 1.06" at 1st gear....but its machined down to ~.75" over the length of the screwdriver....so ~25% thinner, that has to be significant, yes/no? In my opinion, that's the obvious weak spot, and if you could either add material or weld a sleeve over that area, it theoretically COULD increase shaft rigidity.

that assumes the root cause it correct...maybe the OEM bearings allow some movement as well?

hmmm....I could test this actually....I have a shop press and might be able to set it up with the shaft supported on both ends and add a significant load to shaft at 1st gear and see just how much it deflects.....(how would I figure out how much 275wtq equals in 'perpendicular force'?)
I see the logic, but you are wasting your time, it is your time to waste though. The reality is even if it could help there is no reasonable, or more than likely no possible way to modify a stock input shaft. Once you give that up you see that a whole new shaft is the way to go. You could possibly have a new input made by itself with oem 1-2 tooth profiles, but this still leaves the other side of each gear oem(weak), and in reality the most help from aftermarket gears is the gear itself being stronger, even if the shaft flexed the same the teeth are able to handle the separation, loss of contact area and strain on the tooth being further out toward the tip. For example a stock honda box with a center brace to hold the shafts will still not hold nearly the power as a Albins or PPG with with no brace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UP2MTNS View Post
I guess 'cheaper' would be a better adjective....Hollinger gearsets go for like $18K+.....so relatively speaking, $5K is cheap.

Modena makes a sequential 6speed for $30K. although, the gearset is "only" $12K
Looks like 18 vs 12 vs 5 to me.
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Old 07-24-2011, 12:23 AM   #111
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The support bearing for the input shaft is by 1st gear. There is a seal on the input shaft that is closer to the clutch side. I believe second gear is supported by the 3-4-5 "cluster".

The only other place that the input shaft is supported is at the pilot bearing in the crankshaft.

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Old 07-24-2011, 01:53 AM   #112
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Isn't forging always done with a solid block or billet? I thought it was impossible/impractical forge a complex shape like a gear. I can't conceive of how one would forge a gear without bending or breaking it, but as mentioned I'm mostly ignorant of such things.
Common mistake. Forging is using pressure to force plastic-phase material into a different shape without fully disrupting the structure of the atoms it's made of, keeping those bonds stronger. "Billet" refers to machining down something out of what is typically a simple solid shape of forged materials. This very in-depth article by MotoIQ about how Rays makes their forged wheels will show you what "forging" means. You can forge fairly complex shapes, but they are limited to what you can make a split mold of that will come apart. The newest turbo wheel technology from Garrett (GTX series) and BorgWarner (EFR series) are examples of cutting-edge materials being forged and machined if you want to look into the specifics of what they do too.
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Old 07-24-2011, 02:55 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by 2milehi View Post
The support bearing for the input shaft is by 1st gear. There is a seal on the input shaft that is closer to the clutch side. I believe second gear is supported by the 3-4-5 "cluster".

The only other place that the input shaft is supported is at the pilot bearing in the crankshaft.

ah, you're right...I suck. [/idea] But then that means that the bearings do allow any flex....wonder if you could improve that bearing? that would certainly be an easy fix.

that photo is my tranny too, haha.
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Old 07-24-2011, 10:58 PM   #114
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the area where the shaft is thinner is isolated from the forces pushing outward trying to separate the gears that are meshed. supporting that shaft near to where the gears mesh would be a good way to support it and reduce the amount of separation. dont think that is possible. someone sure would have already thought of that.
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Old 07-26-2011, 12:47 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no1v2 View Post
Disclaimer: I'm mostly ignorant of this stuff. I'm not out to correct you, rather I want to understand what you're saying, or correct my understanding.



Isn't forging always done with a solid block or billet? I thought it was impossible/impractical forge a complex shape like a gear. I can't conceive of how one would forge a gear without bending or breaking it, but as mentioned I'm mostly ignorant of such things.

In other words, doesn't forging imply the use of a billet or block followed by cutting to the final shape, and therefore imply no casting involved? (Except to cast the original block / billet.)

(I know the opposite is not true of course, i.e. cutting from a billet does not imply that the billet was forged.)
I did oversimplify things a little bit. You are right about them starting with an ingot for forging, but the fact that it's an ingot doesn't say anything about the quality of the metal nor does stating something is forged have one universal methodology or technique. Just take a quick read through good old wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forging
Take a good look at impression die drop forging. It's one way that OEM's get the ingot into the basic shape that will eventually become the gear if they are making "forged" gears instead of "cast gears,which are both done in the making of gears for mass production. And either approach does still require some form of tooth hobbing to put the teeth on it later in the manufacturing process.
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Old 08-19-2011, 05:33 PM   #116
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Guys, I ask you for help regarding your great experience in Legacy GT modifications.
Short story: I have 2006 Legacy GT limited US version, 5 eat
Because of engine serious break down in 2009 I decided to modify the engine completely. After modification parameters are following: 285HP and 460 EU Nm.
Unfortunately gear box is the weakest part of the game - I feal that somehow during the acceleration RPM goes up but car doesn't accelerate as it was supposed to be.
Do you have any experience how to make the gear box stronger? Anything I can buy in US (KIT or something) to help me out??
(Sorry for my poor US English language)
regards
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Old 08-20-2011, 12:16 AM   #117
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In response to the problem I have put in bold type.....That is usually a symptom of a worn clutch, or a clutch that is just not strong enough to hold the power.

Your LGT box is arguably the strongest 5 speed that Subaru made. It's getting cheap enough to swap in a 6MT, though I don't know how easy they will be to find in your country.

Good luck,
Jay
Quote:
Originally Posted by woyt View Post
Guys, I ask you for help regarding your great experience in Legacy GT modifications.
Short story: I have 2006 Legacy GT limited US version, 5 eat
Because of engine serious break down in 2009 I decided to modify the engine completely. After modification parameters are following: 285HP and 460 EU Nm.
Unfortunately gear box is the weakest part of the game - I feal that somehow during the acceleration RPM goes up but car doesn't accelerate as it was supposed to be.
Do you have any experience how to make the gear box stronger? Anything I can buy in US (KIT or something) to help me out??
(Sorry for my poor US English language)
regards
woyt
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Old 08-20-2011, 03:09 AM   #118
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He said 5eat. Stumps me beyond low or toasted AT fluid
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Old 08-21-2011, 02:49 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm View Post
In response to the problem I have put in bold type.....That is usually a symptom of a worn clutch, or a clutch that is just not strong enough to hold the power.

Your LGT box is arguably the strongest 5 speed that Subaru made. It's getting cheap enough to swap in a 6MT, though I don't know how easy they will be to find in your country.

Good luck,
Jay
Thanks for your answer. Are you sure that 5AT could be easily (cheap) changed into 6MT?? Sounds strange
Anyway - I feel that the gearbox can not hold so much power.
I was wondering if you guys in US were faceing such problems and what was the solution?
I am new on this forum but if you feel that my post is not in right place - please ask someone to move it to better place so I can get more feedback on my question
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Old 09-15-2011, 12:00 AM   #120
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I have a 07 wrx tr, I got up on jack stands the other day and put it gear thinking it would lock all four wheels but only the rears did the front could still turn freely. Turn one and the other would turn,but they wouldnt lock up like the rear wheels while in gear. I'm new to subarus so I'd like to find out what's up with it.
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Old 09-15-2011, 12:42 AM   #121
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Your front diff is open, or you wouldn't be able to see that.
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Old 03-13-2012, 08:42 PM   #122
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No both wheels turned the same direction when turning one.
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Old 09-25-2013, 09:49 AM   #123
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I have a question and my ignorance on the subject will show. I want to replace the stock gears in my wrx with the Type STI Close Ratio Gear set, now should i replace the Front, Center, and Rear diffs with it? Would changing the Front and Rear Gear Ratio be smart aswell. My HP goal is 280-300 WHP. Ive seen lots of great advice from other pages but, with my ignorance about the WRX, most of the stuff has left me dumbfounded.
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Old 12-31-2013, 11:27 AM   #124
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Found this thread on a search.... one if the best I've ever seen in all my forum days.

Tried to create a thread but was told I have to have three replies to other threads first. Well, I am by no means a Subaru expert, and I don't feel that I have much (as in none) expertise to offer.

However, my 02 WRX is having gearbox issues with only 110k miles of very easy driving and by-the-book maintenance at the dealer. No aftermarket power parts. I do *not* romp on this car, rarely if ever downshift from 3rd to 2nd and am not all that throttle-heavy, either.

The only mods were a short-throw shifter and sway bars installed by dealer when new. I run 17" wheels and Toyo Proxes 4 tires.

Took the car to the dealer after hearing a ticking noise under deceleration when nearing a stop. Other than that, the car seemed to shift ok (considering that it's a Subaru)... no grinding, thumping, clunking...

My dealer is telling me that the plastic inserts on the 5th gear shift fork are completely worn, and this is only caused by riding with your hand on the shifter. I've driven manual transmission cars for 45 years and know way better than to do this.

Now, as they discover more during disassembly, the dealer tells me that 1st gear is blown, 3rd gear needs replacing, reverse dog gear has chips, a new mainshaft is required... and of course I will replace all the bearings given that the gearbox is is being rebuilt.

I am currently looking at a $3500+ rebuild bill. Yes, I have seen the word "glass box" but WTF????

I don't drive this car like a grandpa, but I do not abuse it and am really surprised that this much wear has occurred.

My question is: has anyone ever gotten good will treatment from Subaru as a result of poor transmission life?
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