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Old 12-22-2005, 10:51 AM   #1
subysouth
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Default Another 2nd Gen headgasket repair

Yesterday I was scheduled to drive the Legacy to Birmingham AL towing a 6x12 trailer with an 800lb dune buggy we had sold. About 60 miles south of Montgomery, the Legacy started to seriously and rapidly overheat. I pulled over and shut it down, allowing it to cool and giving me time to realize that despite the generous amount of tools I had brought, I had failed to include even a 20oz bottle of water. I let it cool down about 15minutes, turned the heater on full blast and began easing it down the road on the shoulder, the temp levelized at normal and held steady until I had just about made the next exit(couple of miles) and it started overheating again.

I made it to a mom-n-pop and they directed me to a hose around back. The radiator was hot and the overflow reservoir was filled to the top with coolant filled with black particulate material and some oily residue. There was coolant on the underside of the hood right around the area of the cap itself. Against the advice written on the cap, I popped the radiator open and was greeted by a steam/boiling coolant reward and began refilling the radiator which was essentially emtpy. Once it was topped off I started car, waited for the car to re-achieve operating temp and what appeared to be water cycling through the system. I topped it until it quit bubbling.

We stocked up 20oz bottles of Dasani(cause short of half gallon milk jugs they had no fluid receptacles of any reasonable size for sale) and hit the road again. We were just on the outskirts of Montgomery(about 40 minutes later) when the temp rapidly spiked again. I pulled over, let it cool down a bit, popped the cap and loaded the radiator with the drinking water. I called the guy and he agreed to meet in Montogmery instead of B-ham and we made the transfer of the buggy at the next exit up the highway from me and I fully re-filled/cycled the radiator.

I had several thoughts at that point and the first I wanted to eliminate was the cap itself. So I headed down the road to an Advance and picked up a new raditor cap and loaded up on gallon jugs of water and coolant. We drove into Montgomery and did some Xmas shopping and right as we were about to get back on the highway(about 1 hour of driving mixed with stopping) the car overheated again, rapidly and dramatically. So the weak raiator cap+heavy load theory went down quick(it was mostly hope anyway.) I refilled the radiator and set a time interval of 35 minutes and stopped every 35 minutes on the way home to re-fill the radiator. Barring the trip time doubling because of this, the Legacy got us home.

I did notice something odd on the last three stops(and could have been occuring sooner). The top of the radiator and the water blown out of the cap when I opened it was cold. This after coming down immediately off the interstate at 80mph for 35 minutes. Thats not normal is it?

Thoughts/suggestions? water pump? HG??? I havent even checked for the less than obvious leaks yet.

ss
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Old 12-22-2005, 10:58 AM   #2
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Quote:
the overflow reservoir was filled to the top with coolant filled with black particulate material and some oily residue.
Head gasket.
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Old 12-22-2005, 11:04 AM   #3
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When my waterpump failed and overheated my EJ22, it was literally screaming. The HG wouldn't be out of the picture on the EJ25, especially with the reported oily residue and boiling coolant, but I would make sure the upper radiator hose isn't collapsing and maybe try to change out the radiator cap to see if that stuff is causing the problem since you said the radiator was cold.
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Old 12-22-2005, 11:25 AM   #4
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Yeah but even with a blown HG youíre still going to circulate coolant. With the coolant warm to the touch as observed, Iíd say itís not circulating properly and you could start investing from there. Maybe itís got one of those cheap re-man water pumps with the plastic wheel where the fins can break-off and result in a partial circ like this(?). Thermostat stuck partially closed/open(?)..

Did you check the oil yet? What's it look like? Any signs of water in there?

PS: Was it a BOXER powered buggy?
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Old 12-22-2005, 11:31 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinsUBARU
When my waterpump failed and overheated my EJ22, it was literally screaming. The HG wouldn't be out of the picture on the EJ25, especially with the reported oily residue and boiling coolant, but I would make sure the upper radiator hose isn't collapsing and maybe try to change out the radiator cap to see if that stuff is causing the problem since you said the radiator was cold.

On one occasion(the second overheat where we were swapping the buggy over) after mostly re-filling and closing the radiator cap and walking away a few minutes I did come back to find the upper radiator hose collapsed. The coolant overflow tank at that point was almost dry and I think the overflow tube had drawn a vacuum on the bottom of the overflow tank itself. Popping the cap itself again released the vacuum. I pulled the tube and made sure it was clear before re-installing it a little off the bottom of the reservoir this time.

That was the only time I noticed the top hose collapsed.

ss
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Old 12-22-2005, 11:33 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobes
Head gasket.
So would the residue not also possibly be due to water pump failure? There was not a lot of oil residue but I dont know how much I am looking for.

ss
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Old 12-22-2005, 11:36 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xcntrk75
Yeah but even with a blown HG youíre still going to circulate coolant. With the coolant warm to the touch as observed, Iíd say itís not circulating properly and you could start investing from there. Maybe itís got one of those cheap re-man water pumps with the plastic wheel where the fins can break-off and result in a partial circ like this(?). Thermostat stuck partially closed/open(?)..

Did you check the oil yet? What's it look like? Any signs of water in there?

PS: Was it a BOXER powered buggy?
Havent but will do.

It was a Honda powered buggy, and ran like a Honda of course. Weighed leaving the car and driving it home ever so briefly.

ss
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Old 12-22-2005, 11:51 AM   #8
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It's the head gasket.
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Old 12-22-2005, 11:54 AM   #9
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SS - Is there oil and residue inside the recovery tank? If there is, then I'd immediately do a pressure leak down on the system or a sniff test on the coolant as the HGs are too compromised to drive it. It's likely, from the number/frequency of roadside refills that you did, that you weren't able to to "burp/purge" the cooling system each time. This caused hot spots in the cooling jacket which flashed the plain water into steam as soon as it hit these spots, forcing a boil over condition at about the regularity that you mentioned.

BTW - any mucky, slimey green stuff on the underside of the oil filler cap. If so, you've got water in your oil and that can't possibly be good. Get her to a doctor quick.

It could have been brought on by a failing water pump as was mentioned or it could be just your time in the barrel HG-wise. Are you planning to repair it yourself? I feel your pain brother. Keep us posted on your diagnosis and fix process.

SBT
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Old 12-22-2005, 03:44 PM   #10
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what is the cars current mileage?
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Old 12-22-2005, 08:32 PM   #11
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After going through literally months of overheating issues and replacing parts, one at a time until my engine just quit, I realized I had a bad HG.

I had issues similar to, but not exactly like yours. Anyone you talk to who has had HG issues will have the same story - at least all the ones on here I've read. Problems that are not the same from person to person. Problems that appear and disappear at will. Problems that don't really make a lot of sense.

I replaced thermostat, cap, hoses, water pump in that order spread out over about a month or so then finally a couple of weeks later the car started acting goofy again. I had also flushed the coolant out and put fresh stuff in each time, and when I did the pump I ran cleaner through the system (it came out pretty clean). Right after the car started overheating again it just died, 100 miles from my house. It was the HG. Did all the head work, and haven't had a single issue with engine temp since. It's been a year and a half.

I'd really suggest a leakdown test, and compression test too if you haven't done them. You should be able to have a shop do these for ~$75. I would bet you anything it's your HG. What year is your Legacy? 2.2 or 2.5? Mileage? These are important things for us to know... Do you maintain the car, especially the cooling system? When was the last time you replaced the thermostat?

It sounds like you maintain it yourself, and you probably haven't thought much about the cooling system because you've never had much of a problem with it. That was my same boat.

Let us know, and good luck to you.

-Aaron
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Old 12-22-2005, 11:52 PM   #12
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Head Gasket was my first thought...
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Old 12-23-2005, 09:46 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subietonic
SS - Is there oil and residue inside the recovery tank?

BTW - any mucky, slimey green stuff on the underside of the oil filler cap?

Are you planning to repair it yourself?

SBT
Thanks guys I have been super busy and just got back. I bought my next-door neighbors commute car yesterday to have a backup while I get the Legacy fixed.

So some background. I have owned the car 3 years and put about 65k miles on it, largely highway. It currently has about 161k miles on it. I flushed the radiator and replaced the coolant with 150k coolant about 4 months after I bought it but nothing in terms of maintenance on the cooling system since, regular maintenance otherwise(oil, plugs, brakes , o2 sensors, filters of all description, etc.)

SBT in response to your specific questions too:

The residue in the coolant overflow tank seems largely particulate, almost like ground up rubber. Smells more like rubber too than oil. There was only the thinnest film of oil(rainbow) visible off-angle at the first overheating incident in the top of the tank. No visible oil residue in the tank since.

No milky green slimy stuff under the oil cap and no visible coolant in the oil(and I have seen that before because I had a blown HG on the 302.)

Can you tell me a good way to burp/purge the system? I usually just fill the radiator cold and allow the car to cycle back up to temp and keep topping it until I dont see any more air bubbles coming out then make sure I have a good level in the reservoir. You are likely right that in at least a couple of the re-filllings I didnt get all the air out just because of the circumstances (flashlight/side of the highway/desire to make it quick so I dont get flattened by an 18 wheeler.)

I am going to try to do as much as I can myself. Can you guys suggest an order to start replacing things in? I was thinking water pump and t-stat first.

If it is the HGs the engine needs to be pulled to swap them correct? Will I need the heads planed?

Thanks
ss
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Old 12-23-2005, 11:03 AM   #14
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1st order of business is the leak down/compression test and/or sniff test IME. If that fails, then definitely plan to pull the heads.

Then I'd follow Skip's HG repair process here. It's about as complete as you would need/want and you can print it out and follow it all the way through.

If it is the HGs, while you're at it you might as well replace the timing belt too unless that's recent.

As far as burping/purging the cooling system of air, start by pulling the engine cooling jacket plugs and draining all of the old stuff out of the engine. Since you're likely going to pull the engine to do the heads, do this while the engine is out of the car. This will also likely give you an opportunity to to drain the engine of ALL coolant if you have your engine on an engine stand, just rotate it 360 degrees along its axis. Believe me, all of the coolant will come out of the thermostat housing, top coolant cross-over pipe and core plug holes.

This Coolant FAQ has exactly what you're looking for as far as the refill process. The only difference is that on our gen Legacys, there is a a radiator burp/purge valve on the left hand top side of the radiator that you open while you're filling the radiator. Open it before you start to refill the radiator and when fluid comes out, you know that you're close to being there. Just make sure you let the engine run for several minutes (~10-15 at about 1-2K rpm) and recheck the level.

Hope this helps and keep us posted.

SBT
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Old 12-23-2005, 06:53 PM   #15
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Unless the coolant is spilling out the overflow bottle then Im guessing its the headgasket or a broken hose. Where else would the coolant go??
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Old 12-24-2005, 02:19 AM   #16
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Great Info!

Happy Holidays everyone!
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Old 12-24-2005, 02:58 AM   #17
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My 1st thought was HG too. I just did mine, '98 2.5 with 163k on it. I have a Defi temp gauge though, so I could tell when she was going to "pop" each time. I was able to shut it down very quickly. The dash gauge doesn't actually start to climb until the boiling point(100C/212F), so it's hard to say how hot it got before you shut it down.

I didn't do anything to the heads when I did mine, simply because I knew the conditions that it had been in. I knew it was the HG, and it was creating hotspots. Coolant was still flowing, and I shut it down as soon as I could(usually before/around 110C).
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Old 12-24-2005, 03:07 AM   #18
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lol
yeah, same boat as you guys, I'm just still in denial its my HG. overheated pretty bad once over the summer, but i'll be dammed if i didnt race 5 rallycross's with no overheating at all, even when the tsi's and alltracs were blowing colant everywhere. my baby just overheats once or twice about ever 6 months. lol... oh well, gives me time to save up for that WRX swap....
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Old 12-24-2005, 06:21 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sha_zapple
Unless the coolant is spilling out the overflow bottle then Im guessing its the headgasket or a broken hose. Where else would the coolant go??
Out through the cap. The cap responds to pressure not heat. You can apparently have a condition where an overheat can "invert" the t-stat and allow a superheated condition in the motor but cold water still in the radiator but under increased pressure pushing cold water out of the cap. And the last three times I checked, when the car overheated there was a wet spot(cold and wet) right above the radiator cap on the underside of the hood. Could have been a combo of the weep hole in the overflow tank and the cap itself.

I think regardless of the initial cause(likely HG) I have at least got some t-stat problem at his point.

ss
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Old 12-24-2005, 06:26 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subietonic
1st order of business is the leak down/compression test and/or sniff test IME. If that fails, then definitely plan to pull the heads.

Then I'd follow Skip's HG repair process
SBT, my regular shop is closed until Monday for the holidays but I am gonna try to have them run both tests Monday. I read Skips walkthrough(which is excellent BTW) and one question I have is do you need to buy the entire overhaul gasket set? I can see the additional valve cover and plug gaskets but what else is in the overhaul kit that I will need?

Thanks
ss
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Old 12-24-2005, 07:01 PM   #21
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I got the kit when I did mine. It gives you the camshaft seals, crankshaft seal, valve cover, head, intake, and exhaust gaskets. Also the oil seperator(?) seal on the back of the engine, as well as the driveshaft seal back there, water pump gasket. New gaskets for the timing belt cover all around, and a bunch of little O rings and stuff that I didn't use. If you can individually get them cheaper, do that.

In no particular order, but things you need/should consider/have off if you want to upgrade:

Head gasket
Intake manifold gasket
Exhaust manifold gasket
Valve Cover gasket
Cam/Crank seals
Exhaust(where the manifold meets the cat) gasket
Probably need new exhaust studs(5 of mine came out with the nuts)
Timing belt
Possibly new timing belt tensioner
Thermostat(factory one comes with gasket)
Water pump(Autozone is WAY cheaper on this, and is of decent looking quality)
Head bolts possibly
Machine head possibly, with a valve job
Did you want STi motor mounts?
Did you want a new Group N pitch stop?
Did you want a cold air intake?
Spark plugs
Plug wires maybe
Lightweight crank pulley maybe?
New belts
Radiator hoses(I just cut my lower, clamps were rusted)
Hose clamps
Heater hoses maybe?
More hose clamps
Vacuum lines good?
Steering rack bushings(kind of there, and probably easier when it's missing an engine) maybe?

That's all I can think of at the moment.
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Old 12-25-2005, 01:16 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subysouth
SBT, my regular shop is closed until Monday for the holidays but I am gonna try to have them run both tests Monday. I read Skips walkthrough(which is excellent BTW) and one question I have is do you need to buy the entire overhaul gasket set? I can see the additional valve cover and plug gaskets but what else is in the overhaul kit that I will need?

Thanks
ss
Speedwagon ^ covered just about everything that I was going to mention. As long as you're going to have the heads off anyway - go ahead and have them do the valve guides and seals, the cam shaft seals and do replace the oil pump gasket/internal o-ring and the water pump. Unless those are both new, it just makes sense to service them while the engine is down/out for repairs. You're going to want to replace the oil pan gasket, the o-ring for the oil-filler neck the rear and front crank seals while it's out so I'd go with the whole gasket set. By the time you start adding up all the individual parts, you'll actually save $$$ on the "kit".

SBT
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Old 12-27-2005, 02:35 AM   #23
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If you want to try anything before tearing into it too much, replace your thermostat and t-stat gasket first. You might also flush your coolant just to rule that out. The water pump is more involved, and involves tearing your timing belt off. IMHO, unless it's seized, which is not too common, I doubt it's the pump. If it was seized, I believe you'd hear it screeching, and you'd have issues with your timing belt wearing pretty bad (think friction). And if the pump is not weeping the chance of any issues is slim.

If you replace your thermostat and it overheats again, I'd definitely say get it to somewhere you can work on it and order your parts...

As far as the kit goes: I second subietonic's thought on saving $$$. When I ordered parts from 1stsubaruparts.com, we added up costs of all the gaskets I needed... And it was way over the kit cost. You'll also need some moly engine assembly lube, high-temp RTV silicone (red tube), anti-seize, and anaerobic gasket maker (That's what I had from my HG job). Your Haynes will tell you where to use everything.
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Old 12-27-2005, 11:02 AM   #24
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Thanks guys.

Further update, my assumption that my shop would be open on Monday was incorrect. There are two shops I use when I am out of my league and they are both closed until 1/2/06. There is one other shop I havent ever been to but was mildly recommended I am gonna try today. My nearest dealer is 60 miles away and shops that can/will work on Subarus here are few(and one was completely destroyed in the storm) unfortunately.

The head bolts was my other question. Are these one-time use head bolts or can I reuse and get good torque? They are not in the kit if I am reading the posts right. Last thing I want to do is blow a set of new gaskets on a bad torque reading.

I need to inventory what parts I have here and what I need to buy. I have a few of the parts mentioned already. Gonna do that now and then call 1stsubaru and see if it would be better to buy the whole kit with what I already have.

fastenova, I am temped to try just swapping the t-stat too, but there is/was definitely a significant amount of black particulate matter in the overflow tank. I just cant reconcile that with a failed t-stat alone. If you can think of a way it could be the t-stat alone that would yield that result I will swap it out today.

ss
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Old 12-27-2005, 01:40 PM   #25
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Well, I reused my head bolts. BUT, like I said, I know what my engine went through. They are torque-to-yield bolts. If you don't know how hot the engine got, then you are usually advised to replace them.
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