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Old 04-26-2006, 03:32 PM   #1
AaronWRX
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Default Water Injection only.... thoughts on when to spray...

Posting this in the Utec form for more general input:

I need a head check! I've been reading about other peoples setups and it seems like most of the crowd is spraying a lot earlier then I intend to. It also seems that 50/50 is a popular mix but I want to play around with just water first.

Here is a 93octane 4th gear pull on the aggressive side with a knock event at 5688 rpm. It put down 392whp and about 385ftlbs.

Code:
					Load Knock				Mod   Mod		 Mod   WB 
 RPM   MAP  MAF TPS Site Count  Ign#1  Inj#1  Ign   Fuel Boost  MAF   AFR
	   psia  V   %			   deg   duty   deg	%   (CL)	V  
 2916  +6.6 3.2 106  40	00   +30.4   22.2 +20.0  -5.6 430.00 2.9  13.81
 2994  +7.4 3.3 106  50	00   +29.2   24.7 +18.0  -5.7 430.00 3.1  13.09
 3069  +8.6 3.4 106  60	00   +28.2   28.5 +16.0  -5.2 430.00 3.1  12.64
 3180  +9.8 3.5 106  60	00   +25.3   30.9 +16.0  -5.0 430.00 3.3  12.05
 3297 +11.5 3.5 106  70	00   +20.9   37.0 +14.1  -2.0 430.00 3.4  11.73
 3439 +13.7 3.6 105  80	00   +18.1   39.0 +13.5  -0.6 430.00 3.5  11.18
 3490 +15.3 3.8 106  90	00   +15.8   43.4 +13.5  -0.8 430.00 3.7  10.64
 3588 +17.2 4.0 106 100	00   +13.1   47.2 +13.5  +0.0 430.00 3.7  10.56
 3667 +19.0 3.8 106 100	00   +13.8   46.5 +13.5  +0.4 430.00 4.0  10.55
 3796 +20.2 3.5 106 100	00   +15.1   68.1 +14.3  -0.7 430.00 3.5  10.53
 3880 +21.5 4.1 105 100	00   +15.9   41.8 +15.3  -1.4 430.00 3.5  10.71
 4045 +22.1 4.2 105 100	00   +16.5   51.5 +15.7  -3.0 430.00 4.0  10.89
 4171 +23.1 3.9 105 100	00   +17.8   61.5 +16.3  -2.9 430.00 3.9  10.81
 4312 +23.3 4.0 106 100	00   +16.0   64.3 +16.6  -3.2 430.00 3.9  10.89
 4456 +23.5 4.2 106 100	00   +16.2   61.2 +16.8  -3.2 430.00 4.0  10.90
 4547 +23.5 4.3 106 100	00   +16.6   65.2 +16.9  -3.2 430.00 4.0  10.78
 4694 +23.1 4.3 106 100	00   +18.2   66.1 +17.9  -3.5 430.00 4.0  10.80
 4796 +22.9 4.3 106 100	00   +19.6   69.8 +18.8  -4.1 430.00 4.0  10.95
 5050 +23.1 4.4 107 100	00   +20.2   73.0 +19.8  -4.1 430.00 4.1  11.06
 4952 +22.7 4.4 106 100	00   +21.3   72.3 +20.0  -4.6 430.00 4.1  11.01
 5151 +22.5 4.5 106 100	00   +21.0   76.4 +20.0  -4.3 430.00 4.1  10.95
 5341 +22.9 4.5 106 100	00   +21.5   76.6 +20.2  -3.9 430.00 4.1  10.99
 5473 +22.7 4.5 105 100	00   +21.3   78.7 +20.5  -3.5 430.00 4.2  11.05
 5621 +23.3 4.5 106 100	00   +21.1   80.8 +21.0  -3.5 430.00 4.2  11.02
 5688 +23.3 4.5 105 100	02   +20.5   83.6 +17.3  -3.5 430.00 4.2  11.02
 5868 +23.3 4.6 106 100	00   +20.3   84.2 +17.5  -3.5 430.00 4.3  11.06
 6049 +23.7 4.6 106 100	00   +20.2   87.4 +21.8  -3.5 430.00 4.3  11.06
 6207 +23.5 4.6 105 100	00   +20.9   88.4 +22.2  -3.5 430.00 4.3  11.11
 6150 +23.3 4.6 106 100	00   +21.5   89.4 +22.1  -3.5 430.00 4.3  11.12
 6277 +22.9 4.6 106 100	00   +23.7   87.4 +22.6  -3.5 430.00 4.3  11.11
 6523 +22.3 4.6 106 100	00   +24.8   90.0 +23.2  -3.5 430.00 4.3  11.11
 6497 +22.7 4.6 105 100	00   +25.4   87.1 +23.3  -3.5 430.00 4.3  11.24
 6775 +22.7 4.7 106 100	00   +27.3   88.8 +23.5  -3.2 430.00 4.3  11.28
The AFR's seem ok to me (too rich is some areas) so it was probably too much boost and maybe a degree more timing then I should have been running. I've backed things down to 21psi for around-town fun and havent knocked since this event.

I'm happy with the power of the car as is and was thinking that I would have the utec fire off the relay at 19psi &> 60% TPS. My thinking was since I never knock at low boost why have it come on any sooner then 19psi? It seems like if I spray water at 19psi it will let me run a tad more boost, lean out my AFRs to 12's, and still keep knock away while not having to fill my tank all the time.

I'm using a 150psi single stage coolingmist kit that came with a 4.9 GPH nozzle.




Sane plan or am I overlooking something?
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Old 04-28-2006, 11:29 PM   #2
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If you spray sooner, the engine will already be cooled off by the time you are already at higher boost levels. The later you wait, the higher risk you have of having the cylinders too hot when your enhanced settings take effect. I just did some pulls today and while it was only low psi tune pulls @16psi, I was seeing 13:1 afr at 4500rpm with no knock or anything. Granted, my target is 12:1 but the point is I was running that lean with absolutely no problems. Timing was generous too.

I would suggest that you spray at least as low as 14.7psi, and shoot for at least 11.5:1 or leaner. You will see a nice power gain up to around 12:1 to 12.5:1. Anything leaner than that and you will most likely lose power.

Jeff
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Old 04-29-2006, 01:25 PM   #3
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yeah most people who run water injection target 12.5:1. i run leaner than you w/o injection.
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Old 05-04-2006, 12:55 PM   #4
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I spray @ 9psi and keep my AFR above 11.99
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Old 05-04-2006, 02:30 PM   #5
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I think that it is farily common to trigger your spray a bit before you reach your torque peak. This is a det-sensitive area in our engines. The spray also creates steam, which really helps spool the turbo (especially a big one) MUCH quicker. Spray too early, or too much, and you will feel a bog, but if you are running a progressive controller, that should be very easy to tune.
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Old 07-08-2006, 12:31 AM   #6
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I was spraying at 16psi... and some "mash" knock,... I now start my spray at 10psi and it hasnt knocked since.
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Old 07-08-2006, 03:41 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcblues
I think that it is farily common to trigger your spray a bit before you reach your torque peak. This is a det-sensitive area in our engines. The spray also creates steam, which really helps spool the turbo (especially a big one) MUCH quicker. Spray too early, or too much, and you will feel a bog, but if you are running a progressive controller, that should be very easy to tune.
Uh, steam created from WI does not help spool the turbo at all... let alone much quicker. Not sure where you got that idea, but it's not correct.
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Old 07-08-2006, 09:37 PM   #8
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ditto. If anything, spraying will hurt your spoolup. I have never noticed any positive results from w.i. when it comes to spooling up the turbo. If you spray too much too soon you will actually bog down the motor and you can feel it choke on the spray. You have to play around with how much and when in order to get the perfect transition. I would say spray less but start sooner, over time the cylinders will cool off, which is more effective than trying to spray a whole lot an instant before your aggressive settings kick in; that is just too risky.

I am toying with my setup right now and I have it so that a 1gph nozzle engauges around 2psi and the 2gph nozzle is utec controlled, the higher the rpm the sooner it kicks in. Typically from 40load to as early as 10% load in the upper rpms. The pressure is changing with the boost so its constant relative to the manifold.

Jeff
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Old 07-08-2006, 09:53 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rewt
Uh, steam created from WI does not help spool the turbo at all... let alone much quicker.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by NavyBlueSubaru
ditto. If anything, spraying will hurt your spoolup. ...Jeff
Why not? Where did you get this info from?
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Old 07-09-2006, 08:27 AM   #10
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from actual experience. Also on a side note, my father and I had a decently long conversation about the possible effects of spraying water directly into the exhaust manifold before the turbo and we came to the conclusion that it would hurt performance. The increase in average density of your exhaust would increase but the exhaust would cool off and decompress to a larger degree and more than offset your increase in density. Water simply pulls out a ton of heat, thus hampering the turbos ability to spool to its fullest potential. The possible way around this would be to spray water that was already extremely hot. I know the original conversation is about spraying into the intake, but it is relevant to speak of this method as well, if you are concerned about spool-up.

If you like I can do wi/no-wi pulls in 2nd gear and graph the results. Then you will see the actual real-world implications of running wi with relation to spool-up characteristics.

Jeff
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Old 07-09-2006, 11:52 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NavyBlueSubaru
If you like I can do wi/no-wi pulls in 2nd gear and graph the results. Then you will see the actual real-world implications of running wi with relation to spool-up characteristics.
I'd love to see that.
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Old 07-09-2006, 12:10 PM   #12
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Do it in a higher gear.
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Old 07-09-2006, 12:35 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NavyBlueSubaru
from actual experience. Also on a side note, my father and I had a decently long conversation about the possible effects of spraying water directly into the exhaust manifold before the turbo and we came to the conclusion that it would hurt performance. The increase in average density of your exhaust would increase but the exhaust would cool off and decompress to a larger degree and more than offset your increase in density. Water simply pulls out a ton of heat, thus hampering the turbos ability to spool to its fullest potential. The possible way around this would be to spray water that was already extremely hot. I know the original conversation is about spraying into the intake, but it is relevant to speak of this method as well, if you are concerned about spool-up.

If you like I can do wi/no-wi pulls in 2nd gear and graph the results. Then you will see the actual real-world implications of running wi with relation to spool-up characteristics.

Jeff
What if your egt's are 1650 after poring water into your exaust(or the normal way). Would it help then? Yes, water cools things down and you can lose power from it. Maybe the right amount with the right tuning during spool can help spool though? I personally don't doubt it, and have seen no evidence to disprove it. The concept behind water helping spool is pretty sound though. At least that's how I see it.

peace
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Old 07-09-2006, 01:46 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippy
Why not? Where did you get this info from?
Like NavyBlueSubaru said, I get the info from personal experience running WI/AI on my car. Do you have any experience to the contrary?
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Old 07-09-2006, 03:01 PM   #15
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No, but I have no evidence to prove what you're saying either and I've been running it for two years now(not that I've tested the theory). Like I said, the concept tells us what will happen. You can lose a lot of power and spool if you spray a ton of water/alc during spool, but what if it was done right? What if only 20cc/min(a minute amount just as an example) of water were injected during spool? Would it lower exhaust temps so much as to hurt spool, or add to the exhaust velocity when tuned for correctly? Most people use systems which aren't capable of running a low enough amount(low flow) of injection that it won't hurt spool, or have a nozzle which is too big(adding a second stage with a tiny first stage nozzle might help this). Maybe that's why people have seen there spool hurt by injection? Just some food for thought I guess.

peace
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Old 07-09-2006, 03:15 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippy
No, but I have no evidence to prove what you're saying either and I've been running it for two years now(not that I've tested the theory). Like I said, the concept tells us what will happen. You can lose a lot of power and spool if you spray a ton of water/alc during spool, but what if it was done right? What if only 20cc/min(a minute amount just as an example) of water were injected during spool? Would it lower exhaust temps so much as to hurt spool, or add to the exhaust velocity when tuned for correctly? Most people use systems which aren't capable of running a low enough amount(low flow) of injection that it won't hurt spool, or have a nozzle which is too big(adding a second stage with a tiny first stage nozzle might help this). Maybe that's why people have seen there spool hurt by injection? Just some food for thought I guess.

peace
Hmm... I guess I can see where you're coming from, and it might be a good experiment. Unfortunately, my setup is one where I can't run a low enough amount of flow.

I will say this though: My spool hasn't been helped by WI (which I assert based on my personal experience), but it hasn't been hurt, either.
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Old 07-10-2006, 12:10 AM   #17
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With the 1gph kicking in as soon as 1psi I cannot "feel" it engauging, as far as spool/power is concerned. Before with a 3gph turning on at around 6psi I could feel the car limp for a moment, then wake back up again. It is definitely possible to hurt spool/power by spraying too much too soon. I would say to spray as much as you can soon without feeling any loss of power.

Jeff
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Old 07-10-2006, 12:34 AM   #18
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You know whats weird...
Being able to run a leaner afr and more timing will help spool the turbo along with running higher boost levels (if you know how to setup your boost control)....
I dont understand how people running any sort of injection cant take advantage of the reasons you run injection.. its not just for making more power.. its for making a more efficient power curve... Injection tuning(not afr/timing) but actually spray tuning is very imprtant as well.

And btw.. Cooling the charge will not cool the exhuast discharge to the point were it hurts spool... Does Nitrous do this??
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Old 07-10-2006, 07:55 AM   #19
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Nitrous and water injection are actually polar opposites. You can't just add water and expect to get more power. What if you're running as lean as you're gonna during spool and are already running water? Adding more can definately hurt performance.

hippy

Last edited by hippy; 07-10-2006 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 07-10-2006, 08:22 AM   #20
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One handy rule of thumb is to trigger the spray slightly before you get to max stock boost. I had good luck triggering at 10 psi.

Larry
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Old 07-10-2006, 12:45 PM   #21
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I have personally seen egt's drop 200 degrees almost instantly once W.I. was engauged. I cannot remember if it was in farenheit or celsius but either way its still significant. Whether or not its enough to hurt spool I cannot say.

Hippy is right, you can already run aggressively lean during spoolup without W.I., so there is nothing substantial to gain there.

hotrod - the danger of engauging spray right before you hit full boost is that it wont be cooling the cylinders long enough to get them prepared for the aggressive afr/timing settings that are going to take place. It all depends on how aggressive your settings are I suppose.

Jeff
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Old 07-10-2006, 02:47 PM   #22
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I was actually playing around a bit with the WI as I was pulling the cone trailer across state a couple days ago. On a couple long hills, I turned the low limit knob on my CoolingMist controller so that it would turn on, given the same throttle setting (my cruise control was on). WI on would result in about 50 degrees F reduction in EGT, at best, and often no difference was seen (50-50 mix, low boost conditions, relatively high gain setting of 9, M3 injector).
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Old 07-10-2006, 05:14 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NavyBlueSubaru
..Hippy is right, you can already run aggressively lean during spoolup without W.I., so there is nothing substantial to gain there.....

Jeff
That's not what I said. I just said adding water won't always help performance.

peace
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Old 07-10-2006, 05:27 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NavyBlueSubaru
I have personally seen egt's drop 200 degrees almost instantly once W.I. was engauged. I cannot remember if it was in farenheit or celsius but either way its still significant. Whether or not its enough to hurt spool I cannot say.

TIMING

Hippy is right, you can already run aggressively lean during spoolup without W.I., so there is nothing substantial to gain there.

TIMING

hotrod - the danger of engauging spray right before you hit full boost is that it wont be cooling the cylinders long enough to get them prepared for the aggressive afr/timing settings that are going to take place. It all depends on how aggressive your settings are I suppose.

Jeff
timing
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Old 07-10-2006, 07:53 PM   #25
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I didn't say engage the spray "right before you hit full boost" I said engage the spray right before you reach what on the stock car was max boost. That is a handy reference point of the amount of boost that is usually safe without WI. Unless you had a stupid attack in your tuning, it should be impossible to get detonation at boost pressures a couple psi below stock boost limit.

In the case of the stock WRX max boost is on most cars near 13.5 psi, right before that is in the 10-12 psi range. If your running a modificed car and hitting 18-22 psi boost a turn on point at 10-12 psi is plenty of time to get the spray well developed in the intake manifold and stabilized before you really need it.

If your in a car who's stock boost was 6 psi, you'd want to turn you WI on at 4 psi or so.

Larry
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