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Old 01-13-2014, 06:18 PM   #1
KornShaDoW097
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Wrx 04 ej205

Alright for all of you who have built motors I have a few questions and a build list that hopefully makes sense (ill put it up later)

Questions:

1) is it cheaper to buy a used short block and rebuild it with upgraded parts or just buy a bare block and start from scratch? The question is open ended

2) is there a way to create a improvised closed deck on. Ej205? Any worth while integrity benefits?

3) to create a stroker 2.1/2.3L motor what is needed besides the different stroke crank? (I'm building using Manley parts) also will my safe rev range change? (Rev limit)? And is a fuel cut rev limit recommended ?(I've heard it's more dangerous to have a rev limit fuel cut, not sure how true that is)

4) are better valves and springs the only thing needed to increase max rev? (Ex. Titanium retainers with upgraded springs) and how much?

5) are oem headgaskets good or what is recommended for higher power levels?

6) good head studs?

The build plan--

Manley
-92mm(up to 93mm based on bore measurements) 8.5:1 CR Forged Pistons w/upgraded wrist pins (if recommended)
- billet 79mm crank (for higher stroke, vs stock 75mm)
-h beam+ rods with ARP 625+ bolts(comes with them on the H+)
-ej205 block (short block or bulk)
- acl race bearings (over stock) (cheap insurance?)

- if my FP 71HTA isn't blown ill reuse it (51lbs/min, I've ran it 30psi+ and its recommended 21-27, but mine has a higher surge limit due to pnp)
- stock heads (rebuilt if the blown engine didn't damage them)


- everything else I should be able to swap off my old block if its not broken. Except the block its self which has two holes at the top probably caused by broken rods.


Goals-
A 500-550WHP DD, with 700WHP potential. (Changed it)

I want low end torque off boost since on boost its already great, just need the forged internals for longevity since I don't have knock.

I already hit 500WHP with the stock block but it finally hit its breaking point. I believe the higher stroke and compression should allow lower boost.

A few extra details-

Fuel
I run between e60-e85 (ethanol blend 101+octane)
I also have a previously equipped meth/water inj system installed (tried it before switching over, but prefer ethanol now)

CR
I'd like a higher CR (I enjoy a high CR and would like. As high a CR as is safe ) 8.5:1 I've heard is good but if 9:1 or higher if still feasible I'd like that.

Motor preference
A 2.5L ej25 I'd love but I have a 5speed and currently I just can't afford to buy an engine AND tranny. I'll probably buy this and a few years down the road buy a DI '14 STI or WRX 2.5L
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Last edited by KornShaDoW097; 01-14-2014 at 07:28 PM.
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Old 01-13-2014, 07:07 PM   #2
DisoDisp
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1) Depends on what you're gonna be doing with the block and what parts can be reused.
If you're going for a stroker, you'll need a different crank anyway etc in which case a bare CDB EJ20 would be a good place to start.

2) Yes, you can machine inserts and close the deck, Outfront does it on the 2.5s, possibly on the 2.0ls also.

3) A true. 2.3l would require a 79mm stroke and 96.3mm pistons.
I know BC sell a kit with 96mm pistons, but I wouldn't bore past. 93mm personally.

Get a 2.2l block and stroke it to 2.35l instead.

4) Springs and Retainers will "let" you spin it higher, wether or not there's any point to it depends on when the rest of your setup runs out of puff.
Turbo etc.

5) OEM are good, but you may need another thickness etc for your desired quench height and CR.
Cometic and JE also make good gaskets.

6) ARP & A1 tech make good studs. The 2.0l-2.1l engines generally don't have HG issues even at high boost, 625+ bolts are great but may be overkill for your setup.
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Old 01-13-2014, 10:08 PM   #3
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Have you considered just going to a 2.5 if you're looking for added displacement? It is my opinion that unlike the Hondas and the Mitsus these engines are not powerhouses north of 8,000rpm. If the cases had more integrity and the oiling system was better you could work your way around the VE issues. If you're looking for a good DD adding displacement with the EJ25 may be your best bet. When you increase stroke you increase piston speed and that's going to make for worse VE to a point. You can wear out some bandwidth reading the debates about piston speed but the fact that 99.9% of great running engines with great VE have a decent rod/stroke ratio.

If you reuse your case or buy new you run the risk of the mains being out. Most are, I've had to align hone new blocks and used blocks, just goes back to the integrity issues.

The "closed deck" or machining in spacers to create one doesn't change the fact that if you detonate your engine it will break.

If you're going to buy a Manley or BC crank you get improved oiling, but I'd stay stock stroke. I had a 79mm crank in one of my WRX projects and can't say it drove much better.. My current Subi is a 2.5 swapped hybrid and I'm pretty happy with how it runs.. I'm using BC cams and valvetrain, it's great stuff for the price point and since 06 it's seen lots of 8,000 RPM flat shifts and hasn't missed a beat. I also have used stock head gaskets and bolts at 35-37psi without issue.

Adding stroke or keeping low compression won't help it tolerate more boost on pump fuel. It is what it is, if you add compression and can get E85 at the pump you're going get better spool and higher VE and that will result in a higher reving engine.

You're saying your current combo made 500whp? What fuel and turbo?

If you search my name or Real Street I made a post a while back of things to be mindful of when building a Subaru engine.

Thanks.
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Old 01-13-2014, 10:39 PM   #4
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Agreed ^^. For your power levels 500-550 I would personally stay with a 79mm oem crank, and get a 2.5L block and heads then with your choice of pistons and rods.. But if your deciding for 800+ i would go with a 2.5 sleeved block-79mm manley crank. As for fuel-full blown fuel system, youll need some e85 or up to you. But 800+ is just ridiculous on these aluminum blocks, we dont have iron blocks likes the evo 9 or 8. You are going to need some 625+ studs. But 800+awhp + aluminum blocks dont tend to play to well together.
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Old 01-14-2014, 02:47 AM   #5
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I've updated the info based on questions.

As far as the stroker I just want a bit more TQ, and if ill lose VE I'd hope the higher CR would help compensate for that.

If there are no benefits to a larger stroke then I'd like a higher CR.

I understand that our blocks being aluminum limits their strength, I didn't know evos were made that way, good to know.

I'm not going to go for cams since I feel the cost vs gains aren't really worth it, especially at my 3-4k budget.

I HAVE heard of the shop you mentioned (saw them on eBay today actually)

I'm located in South San Diego, I'd love to learn to rebuild a boxer engine since its the only thing I lack exp in. But for now if that can't happen I'd like to know if its worth it to get a shop to sell me a remanufactured or a newly built short block vs build from scratch based on exp since I know some shops may discount parts or labor if you buy through them.

(Noted that a used short block may not be ideal so ill keep it in mind)

Thanks a lot

Jonathan
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Old 01-14-2014, 08:47 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KornShaDoW097 View Post
I've updated the info based on questions.

As far as the stroker I just want a bit more TQ, and if ill lose VE I'd hope the higher CR would help compensate for that.

If there are no benefits to a larger stroke then I'd like a higher CR.

I understand that our blocks being aluminum limits their strength, I didn't know evos were made that way, good to know.

I'm not going to go for cams since I feel the cost vs gains aren't really worth it, especially at my 3-4k budget.

I HAVE heard of the shop you mentioned (saw them on eBay today actually)

I'm located in South San Diego, I'd love to learn to rebuild a boxer engine since its the only thing I lack exp in. But for now if that can't happen I'd like to know if its worth it to get a shop to sell me a remanufactured or a newly built short block vs build from scratch based on exp since I know some shops may discount parts or labor if you buy through them.

(Noted that a used short block may not be ideal so ill keep it in mind)

Thanks a lot

Jonathan
Actually with proper tune and the RIGHT cams, they do give you gains worthy of the expense when you plan on going anything past 500whp. You are choking the engine a bit past that, remember you have to flow the air in and out and if there's a restriction your only going to leave power on the table.

Now the real question is with that little of a budget should you be planning 500 whp ? My answer is no. I have a similar build I'm planning and the question was posed to me. Also a word of advise that was given to me in the thread which you can check out on here search 500whp dd build. Don't cheap out on the internals of the engine you can't easily go back and swap that, so you may want to either give more time to build your budget or lower your goals.

PS 500 whp is a lot and it WILL break. We are talking less than 25k miles.
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Old 01-14-2014, 11:27 AM   #7
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Yep your running a risk of breaking.. ej25 block+ forged pistons+ sti rods+79mm crank. Good budget build.
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Old 01-14-2014, 01:10 PM   #8
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Look at maxwell powers motor thread. He has a long rod 2.0L

It would rev like a destroked 2.3 but just has the small displacement due to the bore.

You wouldn't require any chamber work and could spend that on a valvetrain to support the revs.

If you do anything with a 2.5 you should get the chambers reworked. And I always recommend a valve job at the least if you are putting in a fresh bottom end.

I have found that buying a shops prebuilt shortblock is usually a bit cheaper than acquiring parts and having them assembled. Some shops will hook you up with some extras (Balancing, deals on used case halves, core charges) since you are buying parts from them. The machine shop will nickel and dime you for every little add on since that is all they are being paid for.

I have also found that you get what you pay for. If you can't see how they can sell a complete short block for XX amount of dollars there is a probably a reason.

Plan on either a 2.0/ 2.0 Long rod/ or 2.1 stroker if you don't want to chamber the heads

or

a 2.5/ 2.5 Long rod/ 2.34 or just about anything if you work the heads over.

If you go closed deck. There are few options, pick one have them do you cases but don't let that limit you to who builds it.
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Old 01-14-2014, 01:13 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Razgeiz View Post

Actually with proper tune and the RIGHT cams, they do give you gains worthy of the expense when you plan on going anything past 500whp. You are choking the engine a bit past that, remember you have to flow the air in and out and if there's a restriction your only going to leave power on the table.

Now the real question is with that little of a budget should you be planning 500 whp ? My answer is no. I have a similar build I'm planning and the question was posed to me. Also a word of advise that was given to me in the thread which you can check out on here search 500whp dd build. Don't cheap out on the internals of the engine you can't easily go back and swap that, so you may want to either give more time to build your budget or lower your goals.

PS 500 whp is a lot and it WILL break. We are talking less than 25k miles.
Any aftermarket cam will move the powerband to the right. This sacrifices low end torque for more top end power. It will also increase the area under the curve. And also you will make more power everywhere under the curve and hold it longer. READ: I will make more power with just about any aftermarket cam at the sacrifice of spool and low end power, HP has no bearing on "when" you should upgrade your cams.

OP you wont make anywhere near 500 with that budget and have it stay together... at minimum you need a sleeved block forged pistons I beam rods. That right there will eat up your 4k by the time its machined....
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Old 01-14-2014, 01:38 PM   #10
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Sleeving of the block is around 1200-1500 around my area.
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Old 01-14-2014, 07:34 PM   #11
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Alright I see your guys points.


So lets lower the power level potential to 650.

So I know stock ej25 can handle 600WHP as a DD

But what needs to be done to a EJ205 do do the same thing? Lets just keep the goals as

500-600WHP DD.

This way sleeves may not be needed (ive only heard of rods breaking on ej205 and never sleeves at these levels).

So my best bet is to go to a performance shop over any other option?

Thanks

Last edited by KornShaDoW097; 01-16-2014 at 07:28 AM.
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Old 01-14-2014, 09:53 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by KornShaDoW097 View Post
Alright I see your guys points.

So lets lower the power level potential to 700.

So I know stock ej25 can handle 600WHP as a DD

But what needs to be done to a EJ205 do do the same thing? Lets just keep the goals as

600-700WHP DD.

Yhis way sleeves may not be needed (ive only heard of rods breaking on ej205 and never sleeves at these levels).

So my best bet is to go to a performance shop over any other option?

Thanks
Your foolish and naive if you think EJ255 or 257 will hold even 500whp as a dd stock. And even more foolish and naive if you think a 205 will handle more without sleeving...

Just look on this forum for other builds. No one is really taking chances on 500+ whp on stock pistons and no one is really trying to make 700 on stock bores and if they do, they arent doing it for very long or as a dd... especially on such low of a budget.

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Old 01-15-2014, 02:38 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by KornShaDoW097 View Post
Alright I see your guys points.


So lets lower the power level potential to 700.

So I know stock ej25 can handle 600WHP as a DD

But what needs to be done to a EJ205 do do the same thing? Lets just keep the goals as

600-700WHP DD.

Yhis way sleeves may not be needed (ive only heard of rods breaking on ej205 and never sleeves at these levels).

So my best bet is to go to a performance shop over any other option?

Thanks

Stock ej25 can not handle 600.
Do not mess with an ej205. Ej25 is your best option.
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Old 01-16-2014, 07:15 AM   #14
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Stock ej25 can not handle 600.
Do not mess with an ej205. Ej25 is your best option.
Then why do so many sources online say they can due to forged internals? I've also heard their tranny can hold 500-600ft/lb tq while a 5spd can only go to 400tq

Well I can't swap an ej25 because my 5spd tranny won't work plus I'd need another ECU.

I'm just trying a rebuild for now.
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Old 01-16-2014, 07:27 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by 2Fast4U1DAY View Post

Your foolish and naive if you think EJ255 or 257 will hold even 500whp as a dd stock. And even more foolish and naive if you think a 205 will handle more without sleeving...

Just look on this forum for other builds. No one is really taking chances on 500+ whp on stock pistons and no one is really trying to make 700 on stock bores and if they do, they arent doing it for very long or as a dd... especially on such low of a budget.
My ej205 stock internal held 500 for about 3 months. If it wasn't for upper rpm strain on the rods I'd still be driving it.

Besides since when does a DD race non stop daily? I mean these cars barely have any power off boost so I don't see how they would break due to peak power levels which are only hit from 4-6k range for a few minutes a day.

I don't abuse my cars, I just want something stronger than stock.

700 potential means someday I may do it for kicks but realistically, I'd stay 450-550WHP.
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Old 01-16-2014, 07:33 AM   #16
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To be more clear I want higher torque at low RPM, an easy way of increasing displacement and a cheap way to upgrade internals to handle dd and still be a reliable weekend warrior type car in the 450-550WHP range.

What CR is too high? 9:1 ok?

If I use a forged STI 79mm crank do pistons require a specific height or will I just use standard ej205 specs?
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Old 01-16-2014, 10:25 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by KornShaDoW097 View Post

My ej205 stock internal held 500 for about 3 months. If it wasn't for upper rpm strain on the rods I'd still be driving it.

Besides since when does a DD race non stop daily? I mean these cars barely have any power off boost so I don't see how they would break due to peak power levels which are only hit from 4-6k range for a few minutes a day.

I don't abuse my cars, I just want something stronger than stock.

700 potential means someday I may do it for kicks but realistically, I'd stay 450-550WHP.
The 205 has an open deck. It wont hold 700 on stock sleeves and at "36 PSI" you lifted a head and hydrolocked the engine on your stock 205. Its clear you havent a clue how to properly diagnose an engine failure, and know NOTHING about Subaru engines or building any engine for that fact. You are trying too hard. Stock pistons arent designed to handle peak cylinder pressure required to hit your unsupported claims of 500hp, and forged internals just make the next point of failure the stock sleeve and or the stretched head bolts putting that much boost into an EJ (and Im talking all EJs minus the EJ22T which Is closed deck, making the next point of failure your head bolts or rods)

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Old 01-16-2014, 11:11 AM   #18
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Just check for used STi blocks. EJ257's. I ended up finding a used one out of an 06 STi that had a bad head gasket for 180 bucks. Pretty sure you can't beat that price but I wasn't about to let it pass. Bought all new internals for it, minus the rods. I'll be starting the rebuild this weekend. It is definitely a better option than an ej205. You'll crave more power once you've hit the max with the ej20.
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Old 01-16-2014, 06:20 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by KornShaDoW097 View Post
Then why do so many sources online say they can due to forged internals? I've also heard their tranny can hold 500-600ft/lb tq while a 5spd can only go to 400tq

Well I can't swap an ej25 because my 5spd tranny won't work plus I'd need another ECU.

I'm just trying a rebuild for now.
The ej25 pistons/rings are not so great. The rods are good. Couple people i know are running forged pistons with sti rods and pushing around 470-490. But the tranny off an 07 sti is what you must be looking into IMHO.
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Old 01-16-2014, 06:22 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by KornShaDoW097 View Post
To be more clear I want higher torque at low RPM, an easy way of increasing displacement and a cheap way to upgrade internals to handle dd and still be a reliable weekend warrior type car in the 450-550WHP range.

What CR is too high? 9:1 ok?

If I use a forged STI 79mm crank do pistons require a specific height or will I just use standard ej205 specs?
I believe you require a different height if your increasing the stroke.
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Old 01-16-2014, 07:55 PM   #21
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Just check for used STi blocks. EJ257's. I ended up finding a used one out of an 06 STi that had a bad head gasket for 180 bucks. Pretty sure you can't beat that price but I wasn't about to let it pass. Bought all new internals for it, minus the rods. I'll be starting the rebuild this weekend. It is definitely a better option than an ej205. You'll crave more power once you've hit the max with the ej20.
Wow that is a great deal. Did you got to an engine rebuilder or a junk yard?

But the only think is, to make the switch I'd need a 6spd tranny. Did you make the switch and go find a used transmission after?
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Old 01-16-2014, 07:57 PM   #22
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The ej25 pistons/rings are not so great. The rods are good. Couple people i know are running forged pistons with sti rods and pushing around 470-490. But the tranny off an 07 sti is what you must be looking into IMHO.
I see. I did hear about pistons still not being as good as aftermarket. That's cool.

Off an 07? What makes that so special? Does it fit a 2L or is it cheap?
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Old 01-16-2014, 08:01 PM   #23
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I believe you require a different height if your increasing the stroke.
I double checked and you're right. I had forgot that the Manley catalog shows the different pistons for different strokes. (I did have the correct ones on my list)

The thing is they sell the 79mm crank and the lower "comp distance" pistons and they call it a 2.3L stroker not a 2.1L... Like people on here have called it.

Do you know if the STI crank is good enough? Because Manley has a billet crank but the price is way more than double.
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Old 01-16-2014, 08:41 PM   #24
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I double checked and you're right. I had forgot that the Manley catalog shows the different pistons for different strokes. (I did have the correct ones on my list)

The thing is they sell the 79mm crank and the lower "comp distance" pistons and they call it a 2.3L stroker not a 2.1L... Like people on here have called it.

Do you know if the STI crank is good enough? Because Manley has a billet crank but the price is way more than double.

OEM crank is amazing, i suggest you use the oem 79mm. Great crankshaft brother.
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Old 01-16-2014, 08:47 PM   #25
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I see. I did hear about pistons still not being as good as aftermarket. That's cool.

Off an 07? What makes that so special? Does it fit a 2L or is it cheap?

Not sure if it's completely correct. But sure does make me feel better about mine .


http://rusubaru.com/how-much-power-c...ivetrain-take/
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