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Old 05-18-2006, 09:38 PM   #26
LetItSnow
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Last edited by LetItSnow; 08-18-2006 at 01:11 AM.
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Old 05-29-2006, 09:30 AM   #27
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Re: Coilpack fries

I got this reply to my inquiry at PerfectPower's forum:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerfectPower
Yes, you need to pay attention to the voltage level that comes out of the ecu to the coil pack before the smt6 is isntalled when ignition is on but the engine is not running.

After installation ensure that the signal coming out of the SMT6 is the same as this origional signal by adjusting the input and output polarity setting in the global settings. If not the coil will be held on untill you start the engine, which will result in damage to the coil and perhaps the amplifier as well.
I'm going to check this out as soon as my harness modifications are done.
EDIT: This didn't work. See my Configuration Information, via the link in Post #1.

Last edited by LetItSnow; 08-27-2006 at 12:43 PM.
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Old 05-29-2006, 01:50 PM   #28
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About the coilpack issues...

DONT LEAVE YOUR KEY IN THE ON POSITION

There I said it, anyone who didn't know this I'm sorry, anyone who doesn't know this, now you know.

If you are going to leave your key in the on position, uplug your coilpack, it takes 2 secs.

Nick
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Old 05-29-2006, 02:00 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sko
About the coilpack issues...

DONT LEAVE YOUR KEY IN THE ON POSITION

There I said it, anyone who didn't know this I'm sorry, anyone who doesn't know this, now you know.

If you are going to leave your key in the on position, uplug your coilpack, it takes 2 secs.

Nick
this seems like a dumb thing to have to do? why is this needed.

Ben
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Old 06-05-2006, 03:05 AM   #30
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The SMT6 is pretty universal, can be made to work on pretty much anything, therefore its gonna have some faults.....
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Old 06-05-2006, 03:17 PM   #31
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It is a very generalized system. It is hard to setup, particularly for timing control, and even more particularly for advance. It won't advance all cars as it can't replicate some crank sensor signals.

I would recommend buying a prefab system if available, where a tuner has already worked things out, written specific instructions and setup maps for your car. Either that, or you need to spend a lot of time getting it working. It's not rocket science, but you do need some basic electronics knowledge.

On the good side, it does work, and at only $390 (what I paid from IDA at least), make for a pretty cheap solution.
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Old 06-07-2006, 02:08 AM   #32
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Well i fried my second coil pack!! Wish i found this thread the first time.
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Old 06-07-2006, 02:37 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LetItSnow
Re: Coilpack fries

I got this reply to my inquiry at PerfectPower's forum:



I'm going to check this out as soon as my harness modifications are done.
Did you try this out?

Are the setting under global settings > Ignition tab > Ignition Adv. Limit and Ignition Ret. Limit ?

Last edited by NFJ79; 06-07-2006 at 04:24 AM.
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Old 07-04-2006, 03:56 PM   #34
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I'm curious as well if this addressed the coilpack issue as I have an PP6 ordered...
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Old 07-04-2006, 11:38 PM   #35
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Last edited by LetItSnow; 08-18-2006 at 01:13 AM.
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Old 07-06-2006, 10:11 PM   #36
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OK, I got the multimeter out, and here we go...

My test procedure: I created a jumper harness to go between the connections on my current harness. There are staggered bare spots on the wires, allowing for safe, short-resistant voltage measurements. What's next? All measurements with the coil attached, key ON, engine OFF:

Ignition signal, no PP: 1.2 mV
Ignition signal, w/PP, before PP: 104mV
Ignition signal, w/PP, after PP: 7.4V

This explains things... In this state, the ignition signal is supposed to be 0V. With the engine running, the signal is supposed to be 1-3.4V. How did it get to 7.4V?

EDIT: I just came across this gem:
Quote:
At RPM position zero (bottom map row) the output signal is copied from the input, and no timing is applied. This allows the changing of input and output polarity, until the engine starts and runs. At this point the RPM indication should be correct. (DM, p.22)
This would lead me to believe that, when sending 104mV in, the output should match that. Something is amiss! (9/15/06)

Last edited by LetItSnow; 09-16-2006 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 07-25-2006, 08:17 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NFJ79
Did you try [changing the polarity settings]?
I did this a couple of days ago, and it was a total flop. This is not the solution.

I'm updating the bits and pieces of this thread in common areas so the information stays together... There are links in the first post, dated for changes. Any questions? PM them to me, and I'll try to come up with the answer, one way or the other...
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Old 07-25-2006, 11:55 AM   #38
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quick question. gona use the pp6 on my turbo 1.8 setup. definitly need to upgrade injectors but I am being told now that the pp6 can only control "stock"injectors? wtf is this true?
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Old 07-25-2006, 12:52 PM   #39
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I don't suppose your source explained why the SMT6 would only work with stock injectors? What injectors do you plan to replace the stock ones with? How many ohms?

Last edited by LetItSnow; 08-20-2006 at 11:38 AM.
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Old 07-25-2006, 02:54 PM   #40
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Well since it is a MAF offset piggyback system, you make your whole map have negative numbers to compensate for big injectors. It's a rough adjustment, similar to what the UTEC does. Due to the non-linearity of the MAF sensor, your values are going to be all over the place. Right at idle you may only have -10, but at higher loads you may have to have -40.

Also keep in mind when you do that it makes the factory ECU run advanced timing since it thinks there is less airflow, less load, so you also need to fix timing at the same time.
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Old 07-25-2006, 08:33 PM   #41
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i will most likely be running either sti injectors or turbo leg injectors.
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Old 07-30-2006, 03:41 AM   #42
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bump. lets not let this thread die.....mmmmk?
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Old 07-30-2006, 08:57 AM   #43
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The thread won't die... I'm adding to it as the details roll in. PM reddevil and see if he can help with your injectors.
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Old 07-30-2006, 10:48 AM   #44
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Hey Guys,

Here is some info that I collected and obtained by corresponding with the PP people themselves:


When I contacted Godfrey at Perfect Power I really got on his case about the fried coil packs.

Here are some responses from his team:

"The reason for frying the coil packs is that the SMT gives out the wrong polarity with only the ignition ON. When the ignition is ON the ignition amplifier is permanently drawing current and will eventually blow the coils. I have no work around for this except to use the crank trigger instead. If you use the crank trigger blowing coils will never happen."

I went into this further with them and came up with the following:

Option 1

Use the SMT-6 in Mode 20. This uses the crank trigger instead of ignition. You will only be able to retard timing and not advance timing. This will eliminate the blown coils 100% as the SMT-6 would not even be connected to the ignition. Use the signal coming from the crankshaft position sensor.

I talked to my tuner about this and he says that he doesn't like the idea as sometimes it is necessary to advance timing in order to make power.



Option 2

Create a timer circuit. What this does is if there is NO RPM then the timer circuit kicks out power to the ignition amplifier after a few seconds. As soon as the SMT-6 sees RPM it closes the circuit and the engine will start.

For the timer circuit you would use the Orange wire and activate a relay that powers the coil. It is a negative switch. When you turn the key the starter will move the flywheel creating RPM when the SMT-6 sees this RPM the circuit goes live and the relay closes.


---------------------------------------

Also... When you install the "Pull-ups" i.e. splicing the Blue/Black with the two ignition wires (yellow and red/white) it has been highly recommended that you place a 2.2K ohm resistor on the pull up wire. If not the voltage is too high and can damage electronics. The reasoning behind this is that on the Subaru it simply prevents a CEL from turning on saying that there is not an ignition problem.


Also.... I am not sure if this is the case with all Subaru's so I would really like to see someone do some experimenting.

I pulled my SMT-6 unit from the harness and installed the bridge. I noticed that the red LED stays lit on the bridge for a long period of time after the car is turned off. I will time it later to find out exactly how long.... I am convinced that this is what is killing my coil packs. If the SMT-6 unit is staying on after the car is shut off it is no different than leaving the key in the "acc" position.


Derek
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Old 07-30-2006, 10:49 AM   #45
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Some questions:

1) Deflection.... I am lost... How do I calibrate for this?

2) Open/Closed loop. Have you been able to get around the open/closed loop issue? I am seeing that on my car (4EAT 2003 TS) I switch loops at 4000RPM and high load. Have you figured out a way to force the ecu to change loops earlier?

3) You are saying to use mode 12 .... Perfect Power is saying that on a Subaru we should be using Mode 10


D.
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Old 07-30-2006, 06:21 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GADGTGUY
1) Deflection.... I am lost... How do I calibrate for this?
The answer for this one is located in this post. If you need any more clarification, PM me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GADGTGUY
2) Open/Closed loop. Have you been able to get around the open/closed loop issue? Have you figured out a way to force the ecu to change loops earlier?
The ECU will change from closed to open loop at the factory settings only. The SMT6, used as we wire it, will not tune lambda, and it will not work in closed loop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GADGTGUY
You are saying to use mode 12 .... Perfect Power is saying that on a Subaru we should be using Mode 10.
I haven't seen PerfectPower documentation that recommends Mode 10. This would require a frequency-based air meter, and neither MAP nor MAF uses that, to my knowledge. Further, the ignition system that we're using is a wasted spark, two coil ignition. AFAIK, Mode 12 is mandatory for any ignition timing adjustments in this scenario. Correct me if it's otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GADGTGUY
For the timer circuit you would use the Orange wire
The minimum RPM to trigger the orange wire is 600. I don't think the starter spins the engine that fast. It's a great concept, otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GADGTGUY
If the SMT-6 unit is staying on after the car is shut off it is no different than leaving the key in the "acc" position.
This is only true in that both conditions are absolutely harmless.

Regardless of whether the SMT-6 is on, the coil still needs power in order to create spark or die trying. With the engine off (not "not running"), the power to the coil is also off, although the signals from the PP6 may remain on.

Having the key in the ACC position doesn't light up the coil like the ON position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey
If you use the crank trigger blowing coils will never happen.
I'm sure that you'd be able to get an RPM reading from that, but I don't think we'd be able to adjust the timing in the wasted spark ignition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GADGTGUY
...it has been highly recommended that you place a 2.2K ohm resistor on the pull up wire...
For reference: Who's your source on this?

Last edited by LetItSnow; 08-20-2006 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 08-02-2006, 12:23 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LetItSnow
I haven't seen PerfectPower documentation that recommends Mode 10. This would require a frequency-based air meter, and neither MAP nor MAF uses that, to my knowledge. Further, the ignition system that we're using is a wasted spark, two coil ignition. AFAIK, Mode 12 is mandatory for any ignition timing adjustments in this scenario. Correct me if it's otherwise.

For reference: Who's your source on this?
The Mode 10 came from Godfrey at Perfect Power, although I agree with you about using mode 12 and that is what I am using.

The source on the resistor addition was Sean at RalliTEK


D.
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Old 08-04-2006, 12:28 PM   #48
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Move your 12v+ to 'IGN SW' instead of the ecu power if your car has an ecu timer. Add 2.2K resistors to your ignition wires.

This will reduce the amperage on the circuit and eliminate the delay in shut off. When I get to the office I will post up details.

Sean S.
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Old 08-04-2006, 12:45 PM   #49
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Hey Sean,

Unfortunatly on the 02+ (4 plug ECU) B136 #10 It produces the exact same characteristics as ECU PS B135 #1

I put a volt meter on it and tested it to see if it would make a difference.


When I talked to you on the phone you said that the 2.2K Ohm resistor went on the pull-up wire that spliced into the Ignition wire.

Should the Pull up wire go to the Ignition wire and then the resistor goes in-line with the Ignition wire?


This has to be a Perfect Power issue itself as the other EM units like the Greddy doesn't do this and doesn't need any of this special wiring.


D.
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Old 08-04-2006, 02:18 PM   #50
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Since the pulls ups are soldered to the ign wires, it does not matter where on the line the resistor is installed. The pulls ups are on the ecu side(input). This will reduce the amperage on the circuit. I have not tested this.... So the first one to try it needs to check the output voltage to be sure it has dropped. One could try just using the resistors on the output side. The effect should be the same.

Sean S.
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