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Old 08-07-2006, 10:37 PM   #51
LetItSnow
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EXPERIMENT 2:

I'll admit, I came up short of understanding Sean's suggested comments, so I took them at face value and forged ahead. I was a little reluctant to put the 2.2k resistors any ol' place, but it had to be done. I decided to start in the easiest place in my setup - between the weatherproof plugs.

I figured since I was doing a second experiment, my test harness could use a little butchering, kind of like Buster, the Mythbusters' test dummy. I replaced the stripped areas with blade connectors to allow anything in my electronic armada to be plugged inline with our trouble zone. (Quick review: The test harness includes Ign1, Ign2, and MAP, either in/in/out or out/out/in, depending on where it's jacked in.) Using these new blades, I placed the resistors between the SMT6 and the coilpack, on the Ign1 and Ign2 output lines.

The experiment encompassed these steps:
1) Made sure the car started and ran before the experiment (a control for good science)
2) Plugged in the test harness
3) Measured the voltage between the PP6 and the resistor - 7.62v
4) Measured the voltage across the resistor - 4.54v
5) Measured the voltage after the resistor - 2.80v
6) Tried to start the car - it ran!

Granted, 2.80 + 4.54 != 7.62, but a quarter volt's tolerance isn't too far off, considering the crude setup.

I consider this to be a serious advance in the search for the coilpack burnout solution. With just a pair of resistors, the voltage has dropped ~4.5v, and the car still runs. 2.8v is close to the (assumed) 2.5v threshold of spark, so a higher resistance is in order for the next test.

To further aid in my testing, I've recently scored an oscilloscope from eBay, which will be here in a few days. After I see if the thing works, I'll check out the values of the signal to the coil while the engine is running. I think that if I can find an appropriate resistance, the 1.0-3.4 volt window can be found, and the nightmare will be over.

...or not. Stay tuned.

EDIT: The 1.0-3.4 volt window I was searching for does not match my findings with the oscilloscope. It can be said that some of my information in this post has been proven erroneous, so make sure you collect the information in the experiments that follow! (8/24/06)
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Last edited by LetItSnow; 08-24-2006 at 11:55 AM.
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Old 08-07-2006, 10:53 PM   #52
GADGTGUY
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Excellent work!

I had a bit of trouble understanding 100% how you installed the resistors.... this is how my harness is constructed.

Pardon the crude ASCII

Blue Black Wire --RESISTOR----\
Yellow Wire ---------------------------- Connected to ECU Side IGN 1&2

Blue Black Wire --RESISTOR----\
White/Red Wire ------------------------- Connected to ECU Side IGN 3&4


(White goes to Car side IGN1 and White/Blue goes to Car Side IGN2)


Is this what you did?

If I read your description I believe you added the resistors in-line with White and White/Blue

Are you using the Blue/Black pull-ups in your setup?

When you connect to the MAP sensor are you also putting the White/Black AMP imput to the Car side of the MAP sensor as well? This was also suggested by RalliTEK.

D.
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Old 08-08-2006, 06:05 AM   #53
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D, I've been considering placing the resistors on the pullups per our advice, but I am holding out for the oscilloscope. I think it will hold better answers for the ECU side of the PP6. My first concern right now is stopping coilpacks from frying, which is why I'm working the other end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GADGTGUY
If I read your description I believe you added the resistors in-line with White and White/Blue
Yes. The output signal is what's burning up our coilpacks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GADGTGUY
Are you using the Blue/Black pull-ups in your setup? When you connect to the MAP sensor are you also putting the White/Black AMP imput to the Car side of the MAP sensor as well? This was also suggested by RalliTEK.
My wiring diagram can be seen here, minus the resistor updates. The pullups are being used, and my AMP wire is attached to the MAP sensor per the manual.

Some more inline resistors will probably fit in between the ECU and the PP6, but the oscilloscope is going to determine what that will be.
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Old 08-08-2006, 07:44 AM   #54
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Keep us all posted!

It is a good product and with some reasearch I bet we can all make it an excellent choice for the subaru communit at a fraction of the price compared to the other products on the market.

D.
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Old 08-08-2006, 10:44 AM   #55
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You have it right. The ocilliscope will show you have reduced the amperage to the circuit(wave smaller). It still drops the voltage to 0 to fire the ignitor. There is just less amperage flowing through.

I do not use the ignitor ignition anymore due the the ignitor issue. When I need to use the ignitor interupt, I have been using the resistors with 100% success (so far).

Sean S.
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Old 08-17-2006, 11:56 PM   #56
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EXPERIMENT 3:

Part One:

I finally got the oscilloscope, and it does work. You can score one on eBay for $10 plus big shipping - the thing weighs 45 lbs or so. I got a NIC 2090-III. More on that later.

My "Buster" test wire got a new upgrade - alligator clips. They replace the blade connectors, and they do a great job holding (as it turns out) as many as three resistors in parallel.

This time around, I followed my path from Experiment 2 and placed some aloftier resistance inline with the ignition coil outputs from the SMT6. All of these proved useless: 3.3k, 2.8k, 2.5k, 2.3k. None of those values allowed the ignition to fire. The value from the previous experiment (2.2k) is evidently the maximum useful resistance.

Part Two:

"Don't believe everything you read" is defined here!

* The ignition signal I found is not the suggested sine wave at all, but a square waveform as I suspected.
* While the service manual suggests that the signal should be 0v off and 1.0-3.4v with the engine running, it's actually around 0.2 off and 0.2-10+v (I'm guessing 12v peak - I didn't mess with further calibration of the scope).

Code:
                        Key:   OFF     ON       ON        ON
Configuration        Engine:   OFF     OFF    ON - HI   ON - LO
Stock                         0.23v   0.23v   >10.00v    0.16v
SMT6 Ignition Input           0.20v   0.30v   >10.00v    0.27v
SMT6 Ignition Output          0.14v   7.70v     9.50v    0.14v
SMT6 Ign Output w/2.2k        0.10v   8.00v     9.39v    0.12v
SMT6 Ign Output after 2.2k    0.08v   4.10v      *       0.10v
The * above is for this note: The ignition "fire" signal starts at about 4.3v, and grows to 5.0v, where it stays for the second half of the signal.

Considering that the stock signals leaving the ECU when wired stock or when wired to the SMT6 (using the un-resisted pullups) are very similar, I'm prone to believe that no modifications are necessary on this end.

The other thing to note about that table is that Ign1 and Ign2 were completely different when the engine wasn't running. Ign2 was cooperative (this time!), sitting at a low signal, while Ign1 (used for the measurements in the table) was nearly the same as the "fire" level signal. I think I need to find the threshold for the ignition signal... that's next.

Last edited by LetItSnow; 08-20-2006 at 10:12 AM.
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Old 08-18-2006, 11:01 AM   #57
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I have a dual trace scpoe. I have been through this already, so let me know if you need help with anything.

Sean S.
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Old 08-23-2006, 03:16 PM   #58
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Sorry - a little confused... Will ACC burn out the coil pack or just ON?
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Old 08-23-2006, 04:53 PM   #59
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ACC is fine. ON is not.

...for now. I've got a hot fourth experiment with two used coils coming up...
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Old 08-23-2006, 07:33 PM   #60
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I just fried my third coil yesterday because I left the ig on without the car running.

My question to anyone is how do you install the 2.5 bar map sensor from rallitek? It is from perfect power and I need to tie it into my pp6. I got vauge directions from sean before i got the unit so I did not understand completly) and the dam thing came with no instuctions. Any help is awsome because rallitek is not answering their phones!!!!!!
Oh and my experience with the pp6 is not good beacuase I can not tune with it becase my stock map sensor is not reading boost!! hense why I need to install my 2.5 bar map sensor. my car thinks its at full throttle any time I go into open loop so no matter what values I put in like -100 does nothing to the a/f ratio on my wide band. That is my experiance to date
Any help is greatly appriciated

Last edited by ty2.5rst; 08-23-2006 at 11:11 PM. Reason: not to dog sean
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Old 08-23-2006, 09:46 PM   #61
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ty2.5rst, please send me a pm. I'll try to help you there.
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Old 08-24-2006, 11:22 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ty2.5rst
I just fried my third coil yesterday because I left the ig on without the car running.

My question to anyone is how do you install the 2.5 bar map sensor from rallitek? It is from perfect power and I need to tie it into my pp6. I got vauge directions from sean before i got the unit so I did not understand completly) and the dam thing came with no instuctions. Any help is awsome because rallitek is not answering their phones!!!!!!
Oh and my experience with the pp6 is not good beacuase I can not tune with it becase my stock map sensor is not reading boost!! hense why I need to install my 2.5 bar map sensor. my car thinks its at full throttle any time I go into open loop so no matter what values I put in like -100 does nothing to the a/f ratio on my wide band. That is my experiance to date
Any help is greatly appriciated

Tyler,

I got your email. Response sent. Here are the wire codes for everyone else.

The RalliTEK 2.5Bar MAP:

Black/red 12v+

Black is sensor ground

Yellow is signal output (to P6 brown 'deflection' wire)


Have you installed the resistors to stop the coil/ignitor issue?? If not, you can also swap to the crank signal for ignition.

Don't be unhappy with your P6. Your P6 is not at fault fo the tuning issue you have. Your stock MAP sensor just can't read boost. That is why you are not getting a response from tuning.

We are moving to a new larger location. The phones are on message until next week. Emails to [email protected] are all being returned withing a day or so!

Sean S.
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Old 08-24-2006, 12:07 PM   #63
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Experiment 4:

The Facts:

In the procedures of Experiment 3, I found that placing a 2.2k resistor in each ignition output will not stop the engine from starting, but a pair of 15k resistors and a 3.3k resistor (in parallel, totalling 2292 ohms) won't allow it to start. I also found that, with resistors in the lines, the voltage across the added resistance and the input impedance is 9.3v hot while running, and 8.0v hot while not running.

The Question:

2.2k works, but is it the best resistance for the job? While we don't want the 8v, non-running signal to fire the ignition, we also don't want the 9.3v signal to not fire the ignition, in the case of a lower-than-normal voltage situation (cold, etc.)

The Hypothesis:

It's possible that there is a specific resistance that, when put inline with the ignition signals, will lower the voltage enough that both signals will sit on opposite sides of the "fire" threshold.

It's already given that the maximum resistance that can be used is less than 2.3k. The minimum resistance has to be enough that the 8v signal doesn't reach the 4.82v that is known to fire the coil, and using the standard series-resistance math, that comes out to about 1.6k ohms. Based on some measurements, I've arrived at a loosely calculated 2.4k input impedance in the ignition system.

The Fly in the Ointment:

The problem with all of this is that, while the varied voltages discussed would make things correct when the car is either running or not, it does not compensate for the third status of the engine - cranking. I'm calling this experiment a dud. (9/24/06)

Last edited by LetItSnow; 09-24-2006 at 12:58 AM.
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Old 08-24-2006, 09:41 PM   #64
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Keep us updated I'm anxious to see as I plan to be running a PP6 with my turbo kit
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Old 08-25-2006, 01:39 PM   #65
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Default What do I do? I am more novice at this than I thought

Hello all,
Clearly, my electrical skills are lacking. And, I'm sorry if I am in the incorrect forum. Please, please, please, can I give symtoms in order to maybe get some resolution? Thanks for any help in advance.
This is on a MY00 RS non-turbo with following mods:

Borla Header
AEM Intake
Walbro fuel pump
WR fuel regulator (38lbs)
Ported manifold (MY99 w/o injector scavenger)
Parallel fuel
38lb MSD injectors
MSD wires/NGK I4s
Tanabe Street Medallion exhaust

I have SMT6 purchased from Rallitek approx. 6mos. ago. Been having a REAL time trying to get it to work correctly. Put it in in order to lean the 38lb. injectors out. Think I've it pretty close, but I still have some issues...
1) At full deflection and approx. 5200rpm, car falls on its face and feels like the rev limiter has just kicked in. It seems that it comes out of program parameters and injectors are going full rich. I have scale set at 97% and TPS at 4.8volts max.
2) On starting, I have to let ignition sit on for a few seconds, like a diesel, before starting. Otherwise, the car backfires through the intake and sometimes blows the SRS/ignition fuse and won't start at all. Rallitek, said to set it up with
dual ignition in global in order to be able to add timing.
3) On driving, I have a dead spot at 2400-2500rpm and again at 3600rpm. The values only differ by one. What up? My fuel cal. in Global is set at -1 and all parameters are at least -5, except 1st column, which I had to "0" or else the a/t temp light kept coming on, telling me I had a TPS malfunction. Idle square(1st col, 2nd row) is at -4.
4) I have been through 2 alternators since installing unit. Stock alternator went 135,000 miles and then cooked stator after SMT install. Second alternator cooked stator. Third alternator runs REALLY hot, as does coil. I live in hot climate, but no electrical issues until install. Checked all wiring. Soldered and heat-shrinked. Brand new Optima installed after 1st one cooked with alternator. Also, unit seems to act up with warm weather.
5) I have not had the coil pack issue, but with my recent luck, it can't be far off. Does anyone have a SURE CURE?

Thanks again everyone!
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Old 08-25-2006, 02:08 PM   #66
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I got your email. Since it is technical, I will respond here.

The oe MAP sensor has a 5v input. RalliTEK 2.5BAR is a 12v input. Best to install the 2.5Bar at the ecu. Run a vac line into the car from the manifold. Use the 12v+ and ground on your P6 unit. The yellow output wire goes to deflection(brown) and to the analog input(blue).

Now your factory ecu and the P6 both see the input from the 2.5bar map. Use a datalogger or scanner to watch the fuel trims in your stock ecu. Start with idle and work your way up through the closed loop areas getting the trims as close as possible. From there, use a wideband O2 to check AR in open loop areas. Adjust as needed. This should take a few days worth of tuning to achieve.

The alternator can not relate to the P6 in any way. There is almost no amperage through the P6. The alternator's voltage regulator is internal in the alternator. Check your system voltage it should be 14v approx.
If you are using the ignitor ignition instead of the crank sensor, install resistors or go to the crank signal for ignition control with your P6.

Sean S.
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Old 08-25-2006, 04:05 PM   #67
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Question Thanks Sean

However, I think there might be some confusion. These are 2 different cars and owners.

1)I do not have a 2.5bar set-up as I am N/A. My OEM MAP appears to tune fine. It also helped that I recently changed the deflection scale to 99% as far as the car WAY over-fueling at full throttle/high revs. It seems like I eliminated that by going 99%. Is this cool to do? One other guy said that I should decrease timing though, as cutting the MAP signal causes ECU to add timing. True?

2)Also, I read earlier in the thread that voltage to the SMT continues after car is turned off. I verfied this by plugging MY service plug into harness, sure enuf light stays on indefinitely. Is there enuf power running through this set-up that it is killing the battery during off-time and, as a result, cooking the stator in the alternator because it has to constantly recharge the batt from very low voltage?

3)Also, will installing those 2.2k resistors eliminate the peculiar way I have to start the car as well as eliminate blown coils? Oh yeah, and what about that blown SRS/Ignition fuse thing?

Thanks again!
EJ

Last edited by gianttcr; 08-25-2006 at 04:34 PM.
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Old 08-25-2006, 04:55 PM   #68
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This might be of use to anyone installing the 2.5 bar map sensor from rallitek.
I recieved these directions today along with the post 2 up.

"Leave the stock sensor in place. The output wire will just stop at the ecu. You disconnect the blue analog input from the stock sensor and use the yellow output from the 2.5bar sensor. The stock ecu will not understand, so you have to check the fuel trims and correct for them. (if the ecu adds 15%, you add signal on your map until the ecu does not have to correct anymore.) 10-15% correction is ususlly ok, more than that should be corrected for. The brown and blue are both inputs and the yellow is output."

Last edited by ty2.5rst; 08-25-2006 at 04:57 PM. Reason: Dude above this is 2 diff cars but I think you are in the right place
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Old 08-25-2006, 05:53 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gianttcr
...I recently changed the deflection scale to 99%... Is this cool to do?
The numbers on the RPM and TPS scales imply "up to and including this value". For example, if column A is labeled 40%, and column B is labeled 50%, column B's values apply between 41% and 50%. Column A and B are just labels I pulled out of the air... they don't directly correspond to anything.

To place the last column/highest value at 99% will definitely assure that, at full throttle, the SMT6 will modify your signal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gianttcr
...I read earlier in the thread that voltage to the SMT continues after car is turned off. ... Is there enuf power running through this set-up that it is killing the battery during off-time...?
If your battery is borderline shot, maybe. The current draw is negligible. It might compete with your stereo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gianttcr
...will installing those 2.2k resistors eliminate the peculiar way I have to start the car as well as eliminate blown coils? Oh yeah, and what about that blown SRS/Ignition fuse thing?
The only guaranteed way to eliminate the blown coilpacks right now is by either not leaving your key ON with the engine off, or by switching to the crank signal for an ignition trigger. Reading the rest of this thread should tell you that I'm working on a way around that.

With apologies, I can't explain the way you have to start your car, nor the SRS/Ignition fuse thing, although I imagine that the correct resistors might solve the blown fuses.
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Old 08-26-2006, 01:00 AM   #70
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My deflections is set to 79% This is the way my pp6 has been set up since we installed it.
My problem is I just put in the 2.5 bar map sensor to tune more accurately in my 2.5rst. But I still cant tune no matter how much fuel I pulled. The analog in amps were reading about the same and the a/f ratios on my wide band stayed at 9.6 -10.1. in first second third gear. In fifth gear a/f was acctually at 11.5-12.1 from 4000rpm to 5200 that was good, it pulled nice. But the struggle continues ....No fine tunning can be done. what t f.

Edited today 8/26
I changed my voltage range to .08 lower and 3.75 high and I was able to get a better a/f ratio (11.5). I believe that may have been the problam, I need to do some more pulls to find out. still getting some detonation though.. going to take away some timing. will update

On a more positive note the car pulls great to redline without the usual bogging at the top end. The new map sensor must be doing somthing. Im sure it is reading because under full boost At 7 lbs the volts are at 3.73. ( less than 5 volts @ 2.5bar).

Any suggestions guys?

Last edited by ty2.5rst; 08-26-2006 at 03:45 PM. Reason: deflection will not go above 79%
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Old 09-05-2006, 08:07 PM   #71
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Angry Man, I can't figure this out!!!

Arghhh!
OK. I thought I had this figured out but I am very quickly losing my mind. I am running 38# MSD 12ohm injectors. When I first installed SMT6 and was able to tune it for SOME drivability, I wasn't real happy with the tuning. However, it WAS nice to see almost 400 miles to the tank, for once. Well, in the last couple weeks, my mileage has dropped back down to stock-ish (310-330mpt). I have also started to get a backfire at light throttle. The only thing I have changed recently, was to go a bit richer on second column, thrid square, in order to get rid of that nasty intake backfire soobies seem to suffer with intake mods. It worked for a while and now I get a bonafied backfire. Did my ECU readjust for lower MAP reading? I cannot get CEL to go out no matter what I do. I STILL cannot get the car stop overfueling from 76% up over 90mph (funny, it only does this in 3rd/4th w/automatic). If I make a full throttle start from a light, car pulls clean thru 1 and 2. But once 3rd hits and starts to climb thru 4200rpm it feels like injectors are coming on and staying open. Motor goes waaaaahhhhhh-wah-wah-wah and I have to let off. Could this be the 4ohm difference between stock 16ohm injectors and the 12ohm MSDs I'm running? Please help! Listed car in Trader cuz' I am sick of this!
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Old 09-05-2006, 11:50 PM   #72
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What is the CEL for?

When i had a CEL for my MAF sensor, wagon ran like crap. When the CEL would go off (kinda random), then the wagon ran awesome. Then I actually fixed the MAF problem, so no more CEL, so wagon always ran great.
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Old 09-28-2006, 11:45 PM   #73
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I need some help figuring out the wiring on the PP6 into my 2000 RS. Ive been searching and looking at the diagrams on perfectpowers website and on the CD from rallitek, but I cant figure this out. In the diagrams they show white/blue, white/red, white, and black/blue. I dont have any of those. I have a white though. I need help ASAP so I can get to school in the morning!
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Old 09-29-2006, 06:38 AM   #74
LetItSnow
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Did you look at my wiring diagram? I believe our wire-ups are very similar.
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Old 09-29-2006, 08:24 AM   #75
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Yes, and it looked like you had the wires I was missing.
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